I'm getting ready to run a 4e game for the first time, and I'm getting into an argument with a player of mine about move-by-wire.

Now, I recall from the previous editions and the SR novels how crippling move-by-wire is. The novels especially, I remember the washed-up broken runner, constantly having seizures, ruined by his move-by-wire system. The whole TLE-x thing.

My player now tells me that move-by-wire isn't so bad, referencing both Augmentation and a thread on this forum. I'm actually bothered that it doesn't ruin runners anymore and doesn't cause cancer. That being said, I still think it might, as referenced by the line, "The move-by-wire-system is based on similar systems used in aircraft, drone, and vehicle control and has proven to be highly effective—if sometimes debilitating to biological subjects." (emphasis mine)

I'm very curious as to how the community has handled this. Do you guys assume that move-by-wire causes cancer and TLE-x and all sorts of bad stuff, or do you play it as move-by-wire is now fairly harmless. This is my first game of SR4, after all, and I'm interested how the grizzled veterans of SR4 have handled this.

Technology marches on. The MBW that came out ten years ago screwed you up. Now, in 2070, the damage is less invasive. The DM can still technically decide to give you TLE-x (which a quick routine of gene therapy can fix), but that's about it.

Also remember it's also been something in the neighborhood of 15 years in Cannon since MBW made its first appearance. It was the 2nd ed Street Cybertechnology where MBW came out which IIRC was based on 2055. Just look at how much other tech stuff has changed since then. I mean bioware was bleeding edge, Nanites were still science fiction, and genetech wasn't even a glimmer on the horizon. I suspect that over the past 15 years they've managed to work out quite a few of the bugs.

If you really wanted to be a rat bastard about it I would suggest that you actually make a cybertechnology roll for the streetdoc installing the ware. If he bolo's it then the PC suffers from some sort of negative side effect.

As another note, stuff like cancer and probably even epilepsy would not likely develop for years. Even the 2nd ed version didn't have any actual rules for negative side effects, which implied to me that the designers believed they would be unlikely to become issues over the course of a normal campaign. The MBW always struck me as an example of the dehumanizing effect of technology, a street sam willing to sacrifice his future to try and keep his edge.

I think the best argument I heard on this was... ohh look SR2... 3... (which I missed out on going from 1st to 4th).

Look a fun equipment book of tons of stuff you'll never get to use. (way too expensive, too many drawbacks, etc.)

SR4 has been much better on that score....


And quite frankly given the differences between MbW and synaptic boosters... I'd say it shouldn't be a problem.

Forward the march of technology... faster, better, bigger (with a cherry on top)

I never played until SR4 so I treated it as perfectly fine. I never thought to do anything else. Doesn't seem unbalancing for there not to be bad effects, anyways. And it makes sense that the science would have advanced.

Shouldn't the major danger from MBW be, I dunno, muscle damage from every muscle in your body pulling against each other? How about fatigue from the exertion? Of course not! It's gotta be some neural symptom. Or cancer. Always cancer.

The disadvantages of a move-by-wire system should be handled in role play, not mechanics. Mechanically your player spents lots of essence on it, so they should be able to get their cake and eat it to.

Well yeah, the player and I agreed on that much. I'm just wondering should I adding in the role play elements of getting cancer.

You could treat the MBW as a sensitive cyber system that needs upkeep and maintenance. Give him a lifestyle restriction, middle or higher only. Has to find a qualified doc who's willing to run the risk of giving him his three month check ups under the table. Maybe make the doc a contact, maybe just roll it into the lifestyle.

I'd avoid the cancer route unless he insists on living on the street and never seeing a doc to maintain the system. Eventually it's going to get out of whack and start to over stress his system. Cancer might not be the answer, it's not really something you can even handle well in game terms. Either he's devastated that he has cancer, and having cancer becomes a big part of his character that might or might not give the balance you're looking for. Or he doesn't care and it has no impact unless the game lasts a really long time. Better to go with occasional or persistent situational penalties to extended or difficult tests that could be negatively impacted by a misaligned MBW system. Maybe you could make him run the built in calibration and diagnostics every few days as the system ages. But keep shortening the interval he has to do it in before it starts to give penalties again. That will make it a problem that can be handled, but also add some flavor and character. Let him know the "Check Spinal Column Soon" indicator has been blinking on his HUD for a few weeks if he starts to get frustrated.

meh, the character is likely to die of traumatic lead poisoning before the cancer bit sets in.

I'm not even sure how it'd cause an elevated cancer risk, compared to similar pieces of kit. It's, by the Essence cost, as invasive as Wired Reflexes. Neural symptoms, too, I can't see as being caused by a DNI used to control your body. Not more than other DNI pieces of kit. In absence of material on why it elevates risks we should assume a valid null hypothesis.

If they don't tell us that it causes cancer (and preferably why it does) then we should just assume that it is muscular and skeletal damage. You might bite your tongue off, too.

Move-by-wire users often have small tremors when at rest. They move with an unnatural smoothness. For people who know what to look for, it might be more visually obvious. They are likelier to get temporal lobe epilepsy (heavy augmentation, period, can lead to it, but move-by-wire gets specifically mentioned).

Other than that, it can be pricier to maintain if you use the implant maintenance optional rule. I wouldn't single it out for "special maintenance", though - only do it if you do it for all cybernetic implants. Similarly, I wouldn't make it any more prone to breakdown, unless you are using the optional rules for cyberware damage, or the character has the Buggy
'Ware negative quality.

Just wondering is all but, Why worry about it? I'm all for roleplay and all. but there are a lot better aspects then does this bit of ware hurt me in 10 years,

From a player point of view a gm insisting a bit of gear makes you sick or ill based on old flush made for old gear is well kinda dickish a bit don't you think? what about his char's negitive qualitys? or his char's personality, if your are looking for a way to hurt him based on what he picks those might be easyer to pick on.

Honestly a GM tells me my cyber will make me die when i show up with one, I just walk down the street and start killing main npc's then roll a mage,

That's pretty much it. Shot in the face is the number 1 cause of death among shadowrunners, and unfortunatly 2070 medtec does not yet have a cure for shot in the face.

Using a move-by-wire system is painful in the short term, and can be debilitating in the long term, but thats a 20 years in the future after you retire if you live that long sort of thing, and hopefully by then you can afford the genetec to cure any damage by the move-by-wire system.

The damage of MBW doesn't need to only be physical. MBW systems are a huge toll on the body, but running in that type of hyper reactive state is a toll on the mind as well.

Personally the way I always thought of it was that the biggest negative to using MBW was that it was more likely to cause Cyberpsychosis than most other implants. I imagine that MBW is basically cutting off your brain from your body and connecting it to a computer that controls your body. It definitely isn't as extreme as a cyborg or cyberzombie, but I would say that a player with a high rating MBW who uses it a lot could develop an addiction to having it on, and then slowly develop a variance on CDS or Cyberpsychosis.

If you are looking for an interesting take on Wired Reflexes or especially MBW, try a toned down version of the BTL rules to the use of them. Of course this means the player needs to be aware that he needs to turn on and off their systems. It is a free action, but you don't gain IPs till the next combat turn.

I seriously hope you are thinking of gimping Adept Powers and Magics too then.
If my toys were to get worse than the toys of the other people in the group for no reason, then no, i ain't gonna let that fly.
The big Drawbacks of MBW are One Money(ok, that one is not THAT huge a Problem) and Twop ESSENCE. And THAT is the big limiting Factor.
What do you think Essence is there for? It is there for no other reason than to be a balancing factor. Your balance is built into the system allready.

I'm a fan of the old and rather bad MbW systems, but if you're playing SR4, play SR4. MbW is supposed to be usable. You can add in fluff about it ruining lives years down the line, but don't mess with rules unless you're very sure of what you're doing and the players are behind it.

Also, cancer? I think you're confusing MbW with full cyberzombies. The list of MbW complications include TLE-x, (cyberpsychosis with a side of epilepsy) and CCS (catastrophic clonic seizure syndrome), essentially a persistent vegetative state. Bad stuff, but not cancer. The drawbacks seem to run on a theme of messing with your mind-body interface.

And yes, it makes sense to me. Nothing else besides becoming a cyberborg, which really messes you up, completely disconnects the brain from normal nerve function. Sure, wired reflexes do funny stuff, but they seem clearly intended to augment or replace nerves and function as better nerves. MbW does not function analogously to nerves. It replaces normal nervous function with an entirely new process that, before SR4, tended to break things.

TLE-x is still a possible risk of MBWs, but like cyperpsychosis, it is now a Negative Quality to be chosen by the player, not something your GM enforces on you.

So, if you want to play a character crippled by his 'ware, it's still an option and it's not just handled through roleplaying (even though this is the most entertaining part of it, IMHO), there's still hard rules for it.
Just choose from the Cyberpsychosis, TLE-x and Augmentation Addict Qualities, probably along with Mysterious Implant, Buggy Ware, Mystery Mod Noise or something like that (like all the Cyberzombie/Cyborg Negative Qualities) and you get a complete cyberwreck.
With shivers, twitches, dissociation and chronically metastasizing cancerous growths and a shelf full of exotic, expensive medications that turn you into a bloated, sweating, queasy imitation of a metahuman being.
If you want to be a victim of the technology curve, crying into your beer all day (if you still could cry, they've removed your tear ducts along with implanting those Lvl 4 cybereyes), it's still an option.
Especially if your character is a seasoned veteran who got most of his 'ware back in 2055.

If you want to go new school and play a transhumanist chrome god who succesfully pushes his physical and mental limits by 'ware, simply don't choose any of said Qualities and enjoy the fact that cyberware has come a long way since the days of good ole Hatchetman and is now a whole lot more safe and reliable (and affordable, too!).

So many choices...

Also keep in mind that in SR4, the MbW is not that exceptionally good.

PS: maintenance isn't even an optional rule - it's a rule tweak suggestion, for use as a house rule.

Well, if it were not so goddamn expansive, nobody would be taking wired reflexes of any kind.
Souped up Wired Reflexes with Bonus to Dodge AND Skillwire-System? Hell yeah, hook me up.
Also, there were rules in SR3 for ALL Characters with Initiative Improvements to make checks.
Especially in Situations where they are surprised. Something goes BANG behind your character.
Roll to see if you do a nose dive to the floor, draw your weapons and point them at the Source.

That was the whole point of having a reflex trigger for your wired reflexes... but the MBW-System had no trigger *g* hilarity ensues.

I really liked the drawbacks and differencies of some systems. The bioware is nice, and repairs itself but cybertech is much more "effective" and destroys you was cool. To bad they are going more into the biohorror direction. I would really like to keep it that way with the MBW and such: Bioware gives you a bit more initative, wired reflexes rocks your reaction too, MBW gives loads of extra dice, but ruins you. And bring boosted reflexes back. it worked and was cheap, why did they abandon that technology? (I know from a gamers perspective: it is because it is uncompatible with everything and cannot be replaced or upgraded.) But for security guard and some character it was awesome, just pay 20k and he can at least try to hold his own in a fight, always... without drugs *g*.