I'm wrestling with the matrix rules, as is usual for me. I posted my recent thread asking for a tutorial on hacking; I downloaded the reference sheets and read the lengthier tutorial. I also have finished with the matrix section in core SR4, and am working on Unwired. That being said, after doing all of this, there's still one basic thing I have not been able to figure out, and that is hacking remotely.

Say a group of runners is crouched in the darkness outside a security building. They see a security camera. This security camera (peripheral node) can be directly hackable if not slaved/clustered to another node (otherwise the master node would have to be hacked). Okay. So, the runners are sitting there, and their hacker buddy is sitting pretty in his high lifestyle condo, hacking remotely.

How in the hell does the hacker hack the security camera?

I don't understand how one finds those types of wireless devices without being there and seeing it, and thus getting its access ID. I don't think the hacker can browse the matrix for "security camera number 3, the one covering the docking bay" and find it that way. Does the hacker take residence in one of the runners commlinks, and matrix perceive to see the stuff around them, thus getting access IDs that way?

What if it's a drone, working autonomously on patrol. I don't think the hacker can type in matrix google, "the 2nd GM-Nissan Doberman currently on patrol around the Ares weapon manufacturing plant" and get its access ID.

Basically, I don't understand how a hacker is supposed to get access IDs of certain wireless devices. An access ID of a major manufacturing plant easily found on the matrix, okay. He just does a data search for that, and he can hack the manufacturing plant's node and get access to other things from there. But devices like Mr. Johnson's commlink that is on hidden mode, or that autonomous drone, I don't see how a hacker can mess with those things without being there and looking at them and getting their access ID that way.

Help, anyone?

Scan for it...

For example: Your friends are there. That means their comlinks are there (Or at least the one you gave them) You just jump into it. (You have admin rights there, i hope) and use it to scan for wireless nodes. Bang, a few successes and you got the ID of the camera. You try to connect and get refered to the master node. Hack it and done *g*.

Hm sounds much easier this way than it really is...

Also you can always just"fly" through the cyberspace, and look if you can see it (if it is not hidden - but it will be.)

EDIT: Oh, and if you did it right you already ARE (with your mind) in the security network) You should use a few hours before the run to go to their public node, get in. See if you can get into the securety node, hack yourself an account (Security od Admin) and begin setting up the show. (record loops for use with the cameras, pepare scripts to kick out all other spiders, build a backdoor.. write a Note "Haha, im in ur NODEZ, steeling ur DATA" or such *g*.) Also i support the "Hacker has to come with"- Movement. If they enter a wireless dead zone and don't have lost of comlinks, cables or repeater drones you are outside and can't get in. Also maybe they need you for something else. (And maybe they need your pistol too?)

My understanding of the workings is...

If the signal rating allows you to both send to the device (your rating) and receive a signal back (his rating) then you can scan for the device.

The difficulty of scanning for the device is determined by the GM.

Basically if there is only one hidden node in the area you are looking, it will be easy, if however there are a bunch of hidden nodes, and you want a particular one it is difficult.

You do not have to be physically present to find and hack a node, you simply need to know where it is.

Yea, while you can data search + Browse the net for the Network, then hack it and find the camera, that could take a while, and you can be traced back to your condo without doing more time consuming work.

finding the camera itself can be done the same way, but it would take entirely too long to be feesible.

Using your buddies commlink is the most viable, but working from home means the possibility of lag time and signal interuption.

Have you heard this yet?

If the Hacker is at home, he'll have to hack the "master node" do an Observe in Detail (Matrix Perception), ask for the device in the network you are trying to operate, then go to that device and do your thing.

If you want to intercept the wireless signal of a device or detect its wireless node you (the device you are operating from) have to be within mutual signal range of that device.

It may be useful to think in terms of Physical and Matrix views of the situation. The remote Hacker has a Matrix view of his teams network, but doesn't have a Matrix view of the camera (yet). The Remote Hacker needs a Matrix view of the camera in order to Hack it. So the Hacker moves a persona onto his teams network, they are physically present, and uses some of their devices to Scan for the camera node in the Physical view. Once the Scan detects the Physical device, this gives the remote Hacker a Matrix ID/address that can be used to gain a Matrix view. Once given a devices Matrix ID, the Remote Hacker could Hack remotely directly from his own node, or continue to use his teams network to do so.

Are you saying that a team member's commlink can scan for the camera's wireless node, and when found the remote hacker can hack that camera, routing that communication through that team member's commlink?

I ask this because I'm still unsure about this issue. Once your team is in a corp facility, any node they encounter will probably be within that facility's Private Local Telecommunication Grid (PLTG), this essentially means that to get to that node from the city's Local Telecommunication Grid or from the Regional Telecommunication Grid you have to go through a choke point.

So if your team member scans for that camera's wireless node, and that node is not slaved to a master node, have you essentially made a shortcut to that node bypassing the choke point? Essentially making that node accessible from the RTG.

It seems to me that Detecting Wireless Nodes (on pg 225 SR4) describes something that is routine for commlinks to do. But to find a specific one in a cacophony of nodes or one in hidden mode is difficult.

Or perhaps being wireless at all means that you cannot be part of a PLTG or protected by a choke point, to do so you have to be hardwired.

The way that I interpret this is that you cannot hack into that node directly, but you can Intercept the Wireless Signal. From there you can Edit that signal or even Spoof a command if you happen to have the access ID of the persona controlling the device.

Thought?

I think you're off base here. There's nothing magical about private networks that inherently blocks outside connections; if you can get a wireless node you have access to within mutual Signal range, you can try to connect. Now, this won't always work. Like you said, the networks may be hardwired - or maybe they've just got really tight physical security combined with Wifi inhibitors and Faraday cages, making it really difficult to gain access to the system's Wifi coverage area without authorization - but they're not arbitrarily hackproof. A hardwired system is also a pain in the ass for authorized users, and physical security is beatable.

As for hacking a camera or other peripheral node, it's likely to be slaved to a more important node (like the security hub), so a hack attempt against it will automatically route you off to some other node anyway. Maybe all the cameras are slaved to your chokepoint node, if you still want them to be unhackable. But yeah, you can still edit and spoof them in any case.

I see it as one of two ways:

1) One of your team that is on location, runs their own scan on their commlink to try and find the camera's node/access id. They may not be able to do it if it is hidden, due to small dice pool.
2) Have one of your team give you access to their comm and run the scan with your own dice pool.

As long as the camera is not slaved to another node, then you can hack it remotely without issue. Your team would obviously be within range of the camera, so its just one more hop to hack the camera node directly.

Now, if the camera node is slaved to some internal security node, you either need to hack the internal node (again, through your team's comm is just fine) or you need to have one of them physically connect to the camera and you'd take a penalty to hack it due to it being slaved.

Okay I see what you are saying and reading the description of Chokepoints in Unwired says that things that are protected in the Matrix by chokepoints are also kept behind wireless impeding materials or are linked through cable physically.

Right. You'll generally see that sort of approach to Matrix security outside of ultra-sec facilities - two or three techniques together that each make hacking in more difficult and cumbersome but can't really stop a clever and determined hacker.

When Electronic Warfare is used to Detect a Wireless Node or Intercept a Wireless Signal, even though it's a Matrix Action, seems to me that there is a device involved in receiving that wireless signal.

If the Hacker knows what node com traffic is being routed then he can just go to that node and intercept that data. If he doesn't know or if that node is operating in hidden mode, he needs to force a connection or intercept that traffic while its in the air. To me that means that the device that is intercepting this traffic and the device broadcasting it must be in mutual signal range.

If you are running a Scan or a Sniffer with Electronic Warfare you are trying to intercept that data with your commlink. My point is, if you have access to a team member's commlink and are doing Electronic Warfare, shouldn't the Scan or Sniffer be running on the device intercepting that traffic? Once you have forced a connection to that hidden node or intercepted that signal, then you can hack it using the Persona powered by your own device. As you have forced that data to route through your team's commlink.

This of course is relevant because your team member's commlink may not be able to run your programs at full capacity. Even more so if the device is a drone.

And then there is the question of the Technomancer. Since his Complex Forms cannot be downloaded onto a device, and the Electronic Warfare Skill of a Technomancer doesn't translate to programs, he cannot use the team's device to perform Electronic Warfare, and he cannot use Electronic Warfare with that device even if it has those programs on it.

Thoughts?

False. The only game effect of technomancer-specific skills is that they can't be taught to non-TMs or made into skillsofts. So even if you decide that the programs need to be run within signal range of the target node, a TM can just do it the way a hacker would. Alternately, he can send a sprite to do it.

Out of curiosity, where does a technomancer "run" his complex forms? Is there a problem with him just accessing the onsite commlink and doing his scan directly from that node?

Meh, this is one of the reasons that I doubt the corps would have turned their security networks wireless if they could have possiblity avoided doing so.

Your right that there isn't a place that specifically says this, unfortunately this is more implied than explicit. It does say that the Electronic skills and the Cracking skills of a Technomancer are different, but the effects of this is that it cannot be taught. But why wouldn't a Technomancer just buy a bunch of programs and use those instead of Complex Forms? Why would he even need to learn the normal versions of these skills which the rules say that he can do?

The complex forms are run in his head which is the Technomancer's commlink. My problem with the Technomancer accessing the onsite commlink to scan is the way that programs/complex forms differ. Can a Technomancer pick up a commlink and a trode net and use that commlink and all of its programs to do Matrix Actions? To me his Cracking and Electronics skills are usable with his complex forms alone. If he learned normal Cracking Skills then he can use the normal programs to go along with those.

Maybe I'm being nit-picky but hey that's why I come here!

Because complex forms are so ridiculously much better. They need no hardware, no patching, you can run as many as you want at a time, whip up more on the spot, thread them up to obscene ratings, add program options on the fly, and so on. Plus sprites can't help you use programs the way they can with CFs.


That's a good question - the rules say he can, but why would he need to? Where does it say that he needs to? It's presented as an option, not a requirement. If a TM does sit down and crank out some permanent code, it looks nothing like a hacker's custom software, and it's fairly recognizable - if it looks like garbage code but works, there's probably a technomancer involved. If this visibility is a problem, there's always the option to learn and use the standard skill versions.


Yes. This is like asking if a magician can pick up a commlink and a trode net and use that commlink and all of its programs to do Matrix Actions. There's no rational reason in either setting or system for the answer to be no. Of course, if he does this he's not using his living persona, threading, etc., so there's little incentive.


All I'm saying is that RAW don't actually include this restriction, and there's no real reason to suspect it's RAI either. That imagined restriction is the only reason you even need to ask where a technomancer runs his complex forms - everything's simpler without it. How would a technomancer use his Hardware skill with his complex forms? What would it actually do? A technomancer can do everything a hacker can do; it's just that the methods are often different.

I know that this issue is often debated. But it is true that by RAW a technomancer skills at Cracking can be used to run a normal program. As a GM I must admit that this is the way that I have been doing it. Its just easier that way.

However can a technomancer run a complex form in a device other than his own brain? I don't think so. For example can he download an Exploit Complex Form onto his teammate's Agent?

If you say so. Your game is your game.


Download? No, which is one reason they might occasionally want to use mundane software. Forcing them to repurchase the skills to do so (since they're obviously not big enough karma whores already) is just mean. That said, a sprite can often do whatever an agent can but better, so there's that option. Even just having the TM's icon in the node lets him use his CFs there... unless you think he has to physically get within signal range of every node he wants to hack in order to use his forms on it. He's still running them on his living persona/biological node (which is explicitly not his brain), but that doesn't mean they can't work from afar like ordinary programs run on a hacker's commlink.

Don't forget: a complex form is a technique, not a program.

I usually have physical devices like cameras and sensors directly wired into the security system, agreed. However, I also have a Wireless network that connects to the Security Node that handles sending security information to patrolling guards and Drones. This, I think, would be fairly common as guards would probably want to know where an alarm went off and want to be fed information from sensors and other such systems in the building. The Security Node is, of course, loaded with IC and probably a Spider monitoring it 24/7, and only accessible from within the confines of the building. That means that the Hacker must be in the building, hack the Security Node On the Fly, and probably have to do some Cybercombat once he gets in. That's what makes SR4 hacking fun.

To be clear, I don't distinguish between technomancer skills and their equivalents. Of course the Technomancer can hack like any other hacker. Forget about the technomancer problem, that's just my mind wondering.

The question is Electronic Warfare. The problem with intercepting a wireless signal is that there is a device that does that intercepting. How does a device (like a commlink) intercept a wireless signal from a couple of counties away?

If the hacker's persona is in a node that is within signal range, how does his persona intercept the wireless signal, doesn't the device that he is in do that?

You can't. There must be a device within mutual Signal Range of the target device. I think you have that part down.


Correct, the device intercepts the signal, but a hacker can use any device that he has a Subscription to (and thus his Persona is present) to capture the wireless signal. The hacker can then hack into the target device and Subscribe to it once access is gained, via the intermediary device (a drone, or a teammate's commlink). In this way, the hacker is using their teammate's commlink as a "jumping point" in order to extend his or her own range. This will continue to work unless the team moves inside the physical confines of some sort of wireless blocking material or gets jammed. Wireless blocking material, jammers, or anything else that attenuates (reduces in power) a wireless Signal is one of the most common security measures a corp will employ. A GM should make liberal use of these measures. In this way one of the overall objectives (IMO) of SR4 is achieved: the group's Hacker must now be physically present with the group to do their thing.

Ah, ok.


Through the miracles of routing. If there's a node you can access within signal range of one you're trying to find, that's all you need. There's no need for the actual calculations involved in finding hidden nodes (i.e., the internal workings of your Scan program) to be done onsite as long as you have access to a device/node there to scan the frequency bands and send the data along to your home node.


Scanning for a wireless node doesn't require any special hardware beyond a standard commlink; you just have to run the right program. If you're logged onto a node (like one of your teammates' commlinks), you can use your own Scan program through that commlink. The software is actually running on your own commlink, wherever that physically is, but your subscription to the other node lets you transfer data between them as needed to make it work. It's the same as using a Command program loaded on your 'link to control an onsite video camera or something - you don't have to load and run your programs directly on the node in question for this to work.