i friend of mine brought something up i though i would mention here. if you can hack a cyberlimb and control it, would it act like a drone?

for example, if i am a hacker with a cyber arm...i only have 1 meat IP but 3 matrix IP's...could i go hot sim, hack my own arm and get 3 meat IP's(for actions only with that arm of course). i understand that i would go limp otherwise but if it works it could still be useful at times.

also...could you put a pilot program in a cyber arm and activate it when you need it allowing it to act as a drone aiming and shooting with its own 3 IP's seperate from your own?

That's . . actually, i think nobody has come up with this as of yet . . i am intrigued O.o

Well... possible BUT:

Your arm is no drone.. it is an integral part of yourself. The pilot can not forsee how you will move, can not balance the recoil out and can not mover in extremes as not to throw you off balance. Also you have to provide it with sensors. If you rig your arm yourself. You are still in meatspace with your.. ehm... other meat. which means your dodging, running, turning and everything will be much slower. (And you might be distracted by the virtual reality (-6 it was, right?). If it would be AR. well then you are as fast as always, only it is just awkward.

So all in all: nice try, but i think it won't work very well.

Also: there is that articulated weapon arm... does it still exosts in 4th? That was perfect for such a method.

More importantly, in order for a drone'd arm to work, it needs sensors. So you'd have to hook sensors up to it so's it could make lock-on tests to targets. And the agility of the arm really won't matter, due to the attack rolls being Pilot+Gunnery Autosoft+Whatever Successes On Lock On.

Fundamentally I have no problem with it, though. I think a drone gun platform would be better served worn on a backpack type rig, over the shoulder, rather than wasting an arm on it, though.

I pulled this off a while back, but usually it's too expensive and obvious to use in most circumstances... and in the ones where it'd be useful, real drones with independent mobility are often more useful. Within certain limited circumstances, however, it is totally dead awesome.

Also personally I tend to think that having your cyber jerk and yank around your meat body in order to properly aim at something in actual combat just has to be ... painful ... to say the least.

This might be an appropriate place for this, i seem to recall in one of the books years ago there was a piece of cyberware that would keep your body from going limp, and even allowed a certain level of amblitory direction (with the trade off under 4th edition that it made your whole body vulnerable to hacking). Basically a varient on the same principles as mvoe by wire. Is this just a fever dream o' mine?

Actually one of the best uses of cyberlimb capacity already.... MM wave radar. Throw in a commlink (and maybe a tacsoft)... targetting isn't an issue.


Biggest problem is that your body goes limp... so using the normal cyberlimb rules... full body test. Arm + limp torso anchoring it... average 0 (torso) + cyberlimb... half cyberlimb value in attributes.

Other problem is you switch from whatever small arms skill to the 'gunnery' skill.



Though that does bring up an oddball thought... rather than going hotsim... stick w/ AR and fire ANYTHING (mg, long rifle, shotgun, AR, MP, SMG, missile launcher, grenade launcher, exotic weapon laser...) using gunnery as a complex action rolling 'command' + 'Gunnery' in AR.

LurkerOutThere I remember an override chip that would let you move under VR, but in Fourth Edition that is best represented with the ( Dicepool -6 ) that everyone gets when trying to move while under VR.

Not move while under VR... that's a PERCEPTION PENALTY. You take a -6 perception penalty to notice anything using your normal senses while in full VR.

There's no rules allowing you to move at all while in full VR that I'm aware of.

Sorta. Disabling the RAS Override let you move around, but you were distracted by your hotsim.

You could probably adapt the 3rd edition Snake Eyes System so you could directly 'drive' your own meat body... It sounds like you may be combing a snake eyes system with an RAS override in your head.

So... where is the RAS override? I thought that would be the -6... but you are right, it's only to know if something is going on around your body.

Well, RAS-Override was just a small modification. Some BTL's have this even burned in (if i am not mistaken). It hould be possible to let you run around while still in full VR. (But it would be horrible to do it.

Edit: Ah yes... you were faster. Oh and Snake eyes... only Deus had that installed in people, or not? Isn't that now the Stirrup Interface for biodrones now? I always figured one could mod maybe a MBW System to do pretty much the same. But the R&D needed would exceed any characters ressources *g*.

Well if there isn't Falconer then it's another example of technology taking a step backwards in Fourth Edition, and I'm pretty sure that some BTLs did allow the option of walking around, mostly the emotion tracks.

Yeah, if I was GMing and someone came up with an idea like that I'd give them two possibilities. Both possibilities revolve around the fact that they kit out the said limb with sensors (at the expense of capacity for that limb of course). This is also presuming they rig up some sort of control interface for controlling the arm. Let's remember, drones and the like are designed to be controlled as a drone, therefore they have a neat and optimized control interface for issuing commands to the drone and controlling it. A cyberlimb is built to be controlled by the host's nervous system, if anyone else is controlling it, something has gone horribly wrong, it may have some emergency controls for medical personel, such as "go limp" but nothing too sophisticated. Then again, we got a hacker here, he'd be able to hack something up (Cause let's face it who is going to sell on the matrix a program yo ucan install on your cyberlimb that makes it easier for hackers to control it?). Controlling this thing while using your eyes as the input is right-out. That's like trying to aim the doberman's machine gun using the visual input from your eye-spy drone. It just isn't gonna end happy, that'll be negative modifiers upside the ying yang.

So, let's assume we got the limb kitted with sensors, we got it kitted up with a user interface for controlling it as if it were a drone, now we got a drone limb. Let's say you throw a pilot program on it and let it do the shooting, that's gonna be some serious negative modifiers, I'd say anywhere from -4 to -6. This would be like you you carrying a drone, and shaking it randomly and erratically and having it fire, it's not a happy situation. So, you override RAS and go crazy, however You'd take at least -4 if you try to move with your meat and fire using the matrix because now it's like you're trying to control a doberman with a small drone mounted on it with a gun mounted on it and control both simultaneously, and that's not counting the -6 you take to all meatspace actions, including checks made to avoid being hit.

Considering all the time and money you are sinking into this you're better off buying a drone and mounting a gun to it and having it follow you around. If you are afraid of it being hijacked, get a short range attena for it, order it to use the short range one until it falls out of range of your commlink, at which point it switches to long range and attempts to get back in range of the short range one so it can switch off the longrange attena. Now a hacker has to be in close to hack you.

Of course that's just how I'd handle it from the seat of my pants. Not sure if it is wholly correct.

Make all of your cyberlimbs detatable (modular) and drones (there's a mod for it).
I believe my friends and I did this, four limbs + the head = 2 shotguns and 2 SMGs with tac net in the head (you rig your own head) and your torso-torso is a lump of meat on the floor.

We named him....

Tinker Toy

Um... if the limb has a pilot program installed and the limb is holding A smartgun. Just subscribe the gun to the limb and (Viola!) the limb has sensors

O....K.....

I've been reading the hell out of Matrix and Rigging rules for the last few days (prepping to play a Technomancer for the first time) so I've got a clear understanding of what you're trying to do and what the result is. My research into "How do I hack that guy's cyber so that I'm effective in combat" lends well to your question. Some of what I got is off the Catalyst website and answers to some of their questions posted there.

Here's the deal. You have 1 IP in Meatspace. You have 3 in VR (hot sim). Got it. But if you can go 3 times in VR, why only the once in Meatspace?

Oh, you have Wired Reflexes or MBW or the bio equivalent? Sweet! You have 3 IP's in Meatspace because you're neural structure has been boosted by technology. Your nervous system, your muscles, everything has been upgraded by tech to boost the speed and coordination (cause at that speed coordination's a bitch) of your body. INCLUDING your cyberarm.

Can you hack your own cyberarm? YES!
Can you put sensors and stuff on it to allow you to shoot it from VR? YES!
Can it act at 3 IPs when you've only got one normally in Meatspace? NO!

Your arm MIGHT be capable of acting that fast on its own, but your nervous system is NOT.

I've figured out that with a couple of Machine Sprites and my own Technomancer, I can hack an opposing SR team's cyberware with little to no problem, once I get into their Pan (assuming they actually want to USE some of their Cyberware and not have it OFF. EVERYTHING has a wireless signal and if the GM says their MBW is not broadcasting info to their cybereyes which is linked to their smartguns which is linked to their PAN so that they can get those neat bonuses in combat, then they're stupid and they should be getting massive negatives anyway, but I digress...)....where was I? OH yeah...

SO, if I come up against a runner who's a complete cyber freak with cyberpsychosis and has .01 Essence but only has 2 IPs, guess how many times I can make him shoot his own team? Yup, only twice. Even though I'm "rigging" his entire system, he's only going to be able to fire as fast as he can fire.

And the same goes for your cyberarm.

Look at it this way, all your cyber has to work together to function properly. And without MBW, or WR, or Bio equivalent (brain fart, cant' remember the name of that one) your Cyberarm would HURT you if it moved 3 IPs independent of the rest of your body.

My opinion? Just buy a damned Steel Lynx and trick it out for MAD damage and put a rating 6 Agent in there to run the thing. Its better than having your GM tell you, "Hey, it worked! Your arm shot 3 bad guys in one round! Gratz dude! You got MAD skillz! Oh, btw, it's lying on the floor, ripped from your shoulder. It wasn't designed to withstand the torque of that kind of speed because you don't have that kind of speed. The surgeons can fix it though.... assuming that you don't bleed out from the 30 DV I'm assigning you for being a twink and having your own cyberarm ripped from your shoulder (taking some bone with it I might add). But hey! You did kill those 3 guys! Good job, have a Karma point for that!"

Yeah, buy the damned drone.

Wasn't that an episode of Angel?

AND now I won't get any sleep. Thanks for that image in my head again.

More or less how I'd run it, but do take note that this only works because your laggy meat-wires limit your speed. The commands from your brain are routed through your nerves, then to your limb.

Note, however, that this DOESN'T stop someone from using two cyberlinbs with their own targeting systems. For extra twink points, add Defense autosofts to your cyberlegs. It's basically like being possessed by a relatively stupid spirit.

Speaking of which, you can also add a Possession Spirit to that (summoned by a friendly mage, not you) for the Immunity to Normal Weapons cheese and spirit powers.

I wouldn't allow it, since it allows you an absurd number of IPs (3 on each limb. by RAW), but it's fun to twink about.

thanks for your comments guys but i do have a couple responces to discuss.

1. sensors: i was thinking originally of a smartlinked gun subcribed to the limb being all the sensors you need for these purposes. i believe someone else mentioned this above also.

2. penalties: i see a lot of you saying that the arm as a drone would get lots of penalties and i see where you are coming from but i dont see why a cyberarm with a [ilot program would be functionally any different than and articulated weapon arm which does not get these penalties.

3. "Can you hack your own cyberarm? YES!
Can you put sensors and stuff on it to allow you to shoot it from VR? YES!
Can it act at 3 IPs when you've only got one normally in Meatspace? NO!"
"More or less how I'd run it, but do take note that this only works because your laggy meat-wires limit your speed. The commands from your brain are routed through your nerves, then to your limb."

but they wouldnt be. if you hacked it you would no longer be using those nerves. the signals would go straight from your brain through your commlink to your limb. just like jumping into a drone. how is it any different? what would be the limiting factor.

just so i am clear, i am not trying to start an arguement, just discuss this to see if if it would work.

1. -

2. Well, let's do an experiment: Do you have a 1 kg weight or such (beeing the gun)?. Now you go jogging or running in the woods. See how your arms move while you are running. (They balance your movement). Now without doing anything else jerk your arm outward with full force, while running. Did you just ran into a tree or stumbled into the underbrush? That was the negative modifier *g*.

Of course, say you stand perfectly still and the drone is clever enough to know what it can and cannot try. Then sure, why not. But that also means that you are standing somewhere trying awkwardly to balance out something you have no control over. (Yeah.. i think that means no dodge for you). If you rig yourself your mind is somewhere else. and even with a RAS override combat would be a big nono. Having -6 to all actions... You could trip while walking...

Maybe one could offset some of the problems with a balance tail. And maybe with a skillwire or MBW system runnning special software. Also you could do the "complete" and have cyberarms, legs, torso and head... and try to use it in concert *g*. You know some specialized tactical soft, connecting all of it.

Or, you know, just use the tracking weapons mount on your cyber-arm for this. or built in a damned smart firing plattform O.o

Hint:
Modular cyberlimbs don't have to be connected to the rest of the body.

And we have rules for drone hands, use them.

Precisely the point of Tinker Toy.

Deus had it installed in people, but he wasn't the only one that had it. I think it was a Renraku device before he explored the possibilities.

I'd have to look at the stirrup system, but my gut response is that it's the modern incarnation of Snake Eyes, yeah. I suppose MBW could do something similar, but you'd be driving a skillwire system and not a full simrig system. Similar, but probably with reduced effectiveness due to lacking sensory feedback for the 'driver', and basically just being a skill-enabling platform.