Hello,

I'm looking for some thoughts on the Spirit Power "Search".

The rulebook says the following for this power :



Yesterday, our RP group started our first session for SR4. I play a Hermetic Mage and had a Fire Spirit (force 4) bound to me. I chose the Search power for its extra power.

Our Johnson wanted us to retrieve a package from a man. The only clue he gave us was a picture of the man and the location where it was taken. While our technomancer took to the matrix to run some facial recognition program, I suddenly remembered the Search power. As it says spirits may search out anything that their summoner provides them with a mental image of, I provided the mental image of the picture of the man and asked the spirit to search him out. I started rolling dice and after about 30 minutes the spirit came back to me with the whereabouts of the man.

This triggered a discussion at the table as this power was found to be a bit of a plot-killer (as our GM had thought we would have to spend considerable time running the matrix and using contacts to find the man).

Hence, my question : is using a picture of someone a correct way of using this power ? Or should I only be able to do this after I've actually seen the man for real (in the physical or astral plane) ?

We decided to go with the use of the power as we've done for now, but we'd like some input from experienced players and GMs on this too.

Thanks in advance for any reaction you can give me !!

- Peter -

Remember to increase the hits needed by distance and to drop the dice pool by one with each subsequent test. This makes it hard to find someone from more than a few kilometers away. There's also the possibility that the target looks different - the spirit only knows what you've shown it, and it doesn't have the ability to flawlessly identify them if they're disguised.

Is a photography enough for a mental image?

Good advice.

Is dropping the dice pool by one in extended tests RAW, or your recommendation? Sounds like it would make life quite hard for watchers.

Edit: ah... dropping dice is 'the suggested method' in SR4A. ouch...

Edit2: Does this mean that Watchers can never find anything? o.O
Intuition + Magic (5, 10minutes), 2 dice for first test, 1 for the second. Max three hits.

It is the RAW suggestion if the GM wishes not to make success inevitable.

It is also one of the (several) extremely shitty & un-thought-out rules in SR4A.

Especially with the increased thresholds for extended tests of SR4A

I love the -1 per each extended test suggestion. It has not screwed anyone at my table and brings some needed risk to the extended test roll. I found it rather pointless, in most situations, that the only downside was time and the potential for glitches.

Without this rule, a spirit will pretty much always succeed given enough time. With roughly 12 hours if summoned smartly, that's 72 tests. At Force 4, the spirit can buy 2 hits per test. That's 144 hits, meaning that the spirit can generally find someone within 139 kilometers (a fairly huge area in a sprawl). Runners might have some defenses - like holing up in a warded area - but bigger spirts are easy enough to come by too, so it balances out. Do you really want to play in a world where it's that easy to track down the runners?

There are some other hurdles. Did the spirit search astrally? If so, then you need to consider the problem of mapping an astral location and view to the physical view. A minor one, but still a step to go through. Did the spirit search while Manifest? That has it's own issues.

I can't really say for anything like Dice Pool Modifiers or extra penalties...but I'm pretty sure a good resolution photograph (not fuzzy, like a bigfoot or Loch Ness photo) can be used with the Search power. I'm almost (say 80%?) positive that the SR4 book uses that as an example, though if you are using SR4A I can't say if that's still true (no A for me yet...).

I don't really worry about distance and such because most of the time it is a spirit searching within a nearby building for me.

Neither book has an example for the search power. Even if the photo is not grainy, the necessary condition is a mental image of the subject. No matter how good the photo, if the mage does not convey the necessary properties of the subject mentally the search should fail or the spirit should find something different but similar looking.
What happens if someone is surgically altered to look like the person on the photo? What about mass produced objects? Will the spirit find my commlink or just any Novatech Airware?

Hmmm...I was pretty sure that was an exampl somewhere...maybe it was for something else or a different game entirely...oh well

With this rule complex computer software could never be written. Have you looked at the build/repair table when dealing with software? It's --ing retarded!

I think I did the math once and it worked out to very quickly only meaning you ever get half done with something like a Rating 9 program starting with 6 logic and 4 software.

Basically, Trillian Astra would never be complete, Duke Nukem Forever, will in fact, take forever, and Dwarf Fortress is a statistical anomaly (the man has been working by himself in an un-air-conditioned apartment on the single most complex game ever made for four or five years now).

It's supposed to be an optional rule though...isn't it? So I would guess the GM could use it as he needs, like when success is not automatic...

Given enough time...a program could be completed...but maybe after awhile, the Spirit just can't track down whatever it's searching for anymore...
I think it's more for checks where extended time makes it more difficult...such as tracking someone, because a trail can go "cold" after awhile, making it harder to find. Just an alternate way of saying there is a time limit...I guess...instead of saying outright "You have 4 hours to succeed on this test"...

The question then becomes what kind of information the Mage needs to be able to send the mental image to the Spirit. Is a picture enough ? Or should he have seen the aura of the subject (if it's a person) ?

As to the surgical alteration of the person. Depends on your take on my previous question. If you need to have seen the aura to send the mental image, someone else that just looks the same will not be found. If a picture is enough, then the first good lookalike could be found.

When it comes to objects, I'm inclined (in synch with my take on the previous example) to have the spirit find the first available object that looks like the one it is searching for. This is, in fact, why I sent my spirit to look for the man while we were after the suitcase he was holding in the picture

In my game we've always played that a picture is enough but I almost always give the mage a handful of possible guys. One time when they were looking for a briefcase I had the target meet up with 5 other guys each with the briefcase and then each one goes a separate direction.

honestly, the stuff that counters the spirit's search power is also good at spoofing mundane searches/shadowing so I see no reason to restrict it. You want to see something dumb -- see how long it takes a TM to hack into Grid Guide and search the cameras for the same guy. Bet you the TM is faster than the spirit.

You also increase the threshold according to distance. Generally, we use the suggested rule that an extended test can't occur more times than the DP. So, your spirit would get 8 rolls to attempt to reach the threshold. This is great for a search up to several kilometers, but doesn't work if you are in the wrong end of town. Also, per GM discretion the amount of like things you are searching for can increase the threshold.

If you are in Tokyo, and looking for a person-- the threshold would be increased. If you are looking for something w/o an aura (a car), that would increase the threshold. Those thing aren't in the rules, but SR4 gives a lot of leeway to GM's. The thing is, your GM has to make sure he isn't just screwing you over b/c he hadn't planned for this. Sometimes the players "break" the adventure-- let them. They earned it.

Yeah, the spirit power Search broke "On The Run" for our group. Bypassed most of the legwork, kicked down the guy's door, got the recording back and put it in the Johnson's hands before the first night was up.

That having been said, we at least had a place for the spirit to start its search, so there was no "search the whole city of Seattle for this" and get an answer in 20-30 minutes. It's up to the GM to weigh playability and believability into situations like this, which is why I don't think the -1/test for threshold tests is so out-of-hand. It's simply a way for the GM to stop the players from doing the damned-near impossible if given enough time. Because let's be honest, I don't care how much Edge you spend you shouldn't be able to build a Suborbital in your garage using Logic+Aerospace Mechanic by your self if you gave it a month or two.

Any GM worth their salt will scale the scenario to meet the players involved. My players have a tendency to roll way too many magic users, so they always face a strong magic using resistance. Because Shadowrun isn't as cut a dried as D&D these days, it isn't as easy to expect a by the numbers security force to give the players the kind of scene they deserve. Sometimes the five man HTR team has a second mage, maybe they need a remote spider backing them up that day.

When dealing with clever players, you need to make sure that you reward them for their cleverness without making things so easy it detracts from the feel you're looking for. Search can easily unbalance a simple "Hide and Seek" type encounter, but it's something a player can reasonably have access to. In these cases a player who thinks to use it has chosen a novel approach to limiting the amount of legwork the crew could have been doing. Reward him by cutting out a section of legwork. However in going directly to the target they might find that something else has been missed, and that by taking the easy way they have put themselves at a disadvantage and missed some bit of useful information they could have used. Possible contacts may be enemies now, details that bite them in the ass now might have been discovered ahead of time if the hacker had run his full search and the face tailed the target for a bit. A search can get things on track fast, but shouldn't be the end of the road. Besides, the target is never sitting in a unsecured apartment alone waiting for the players. No adventure should start and end with Search. If it does, your GM needs to work on the setup a little bit and learn to switch things up on the fly. Players should also work to expand the narrative of the game and not seek to use thier character's abilities to "break" a game.

It meets the description, though I would probably give a penalty for a photo. It's a plot killer unless the GM understands the capability. To really hide against it you need to be a long way away and/or hidden by a mana barrier or concealment. To prevent the silly case of a force 1 spirit finding you hidden behind a 12 point ward the number of rolls the spirit gets needs to be capped in some way, like by force of the spirit.

Keep in mind also, as magic has been around for decades now, most Middle, and almost all High lifestyle dwellings will have some kind of "make it hard to astral snoop" thing going on. It can be FAB insulation, or perhaps even paying for a ward. I generally have my middle class suburbs get's sprayed w/ a FAB laced sealer as regularly as pest control. It fades off w/ rain and time, but slows down astral travel, and get's a D6 (or three if sprayed recently) to resist active detection spells (subtracting from the hits of the spell). If I was a kidnapper, or was worried more than just for my privacy-- I'd probably have astral security that made the search power useless.

The Search-Power does only work on people you've seen before. That's a hard rule. The mental link part means that in case of spirits, it's enough if the summoner has seen the target before, which is an extra condition built in to make the power usable at all for spirits (which are usually summoned shortly before using their powers and haven't "met" anyone).
Yes, it's written quite badly, but that's the only interpretation that doesn't have GMs around the world tearing their hair out thanks to its plotkilling abilities.

Perhaps you should all be reading the Search power, & those that can use it.

First, to address the SR4A system for limiting dice pools - it is fucking retarded for a number of reasons. The one relevant to this has already been brought up. Watcher Spirits have the Search power. This is one of the key abilities of a Watcher. Watcher's have a dice pool of 2, 1, & 0 for Search - which just happens to have a minimum Threshold of 5.

Yes, this means a Watcher spirit has no chance whatsoever to succeed on any use of their primary fucking ability.


Next, again, look at the fucking rules. Wards do not increase the Threshold, making it inevitable with 'unlimited' rolls, they impose a Dice Pool Penalty. A Force 2 Ward stops a Watcher from finding the target flat out. 12 will entirely prevent a Force 6 spirit, and severely hamper higher Force's.



My suggestion for Extended Tests is to limit the number of rolls to Attribute + Skill. The dice pool is never penalized, & this restriction does not apply to Attribute-only tests. For this, it is important to remember that Defaulting is not Attribute-only; it remains Attribute + Skill (0) with a -1 modifier.

Can you give an example of where this exception matters?

Isn't there some special exception if watchers are specifically attuned to a target?

OK, found it in DG. It's an optional rule, but it covers this well and provides a bonus of the summoner's Magic if the subject can be assensed. Looks fine if you don't want watchers that can find hidden people, only track them once you've seen them.

Track them once you've assensed them, which takes time. Not long, but a target on the run is a bit tricky to assense.

Assensing is Observe in Detail, right? Even following the Simple Action it takes to shift to astral perception, it takes about as long as pulling a gun (non-Quick Draw) and popping off a shot at them. Based on how often we draw a gun and shoot at people in SR, that's not too tricky at all.

I thought it took longer, I may be mistaken.

No problem. At least we're courteous to each other and didn't have to drop into a f-bomb happy 'read the rules' rant, right?

Odd... I completed a Rating 10 Encryption Program (10 Successes Needed), in 2 Rolls with 13 Base Dice decrementing each roll...
It took me 9 Incrementally reducing rolls to create a Rating 7 Agent (Same 13 Dice Pool)... It is not impossible...

But again... This results in the Watchers NEVER BEING ABLE TO PERFORM THEIR PRIMARY FUNCTION... MAximum of 4 Successes on a Minimum 5 Success Task... Watchers have a Skill of 1 and a Attribute of 1... Same problem as for decrementing dice pools there...

I have learnt to dislike Extended Tests. I personally dont like the fact that it is extremely difficult to balance them.

Either you dont apply any modifiers to them and they end up being "Just keep rolling till you suceed! You cannot fail! Yay!" or you do apply a modifier system (Such as recurring dice loss) and certain things that you should quite easily be capable of become impossible.

You know.. I really don't mind the Extended Test... The thing is though, you should only be rolling an extended test if it MATTERS to the context of the story or for dramatic purposes... Can I fix a car in my garage with a Skill of 3 and a Attribute of 3... Eventually... can I do it in the 8 Hours that is needed to get away from those that are trying to kill me? Maybe... In the first instance, no roll... in the second, yeah, you need to roll...

It is all about the drama in my opinion...

If I were the GM, I think I'd rule that the picture is insufficient. The spirit is, presumably, searching in the astral, and can't perceive the targets physical form without manifesting. A manifesting fire spirit is going to cause all sorts of problems as it zips about town... Yes, it does say that Astral Form critters can search, but it doesn't say without restriction. A bit of a cheap answer, but entirely in line with established Shadowrun magical theory.

Then I'd sit down and seriously re-jigger the search power. Personally, I'd change the search area modifier to be +1 per 100 meters away. That strikes me as a somewhat useful balance between complete nerfing, and not having a game (and world) wrecking power. That and/or change the terms of the extended test to threshold 5, 1 hour of time, 1 service each hour. To my thinking the Search power (and watcher spirits) should be useful for "where did I park my car" or "where are my keys" or "where is that jerk who just stole my car" and not "Where in the world is Carmen San Diego?". I don't care what the rules say.

As for the extended tests, the mechanic doesn't work well in some cases. A lot of those cases involve characters doing all sorts of really dull things like programming and the like. Dull? Mechanic odd? Then wing it! This is Shadowrun, not "Sweat Shop the RPG".

As the Search power is written with few details, I have made the following GM calls for my game:

1) The spirit doesn't actually go anywhere while using this power. It's reaching out magically and feeling for a magical 'ping' centered on the target's location. This prevents problems with a spirit that's not on remote service moving too far from the summoner. It also prevent's the spirit assensing/seeing everything between here and there and acting like an astral spysat.

2) If multiple targets could set off the 'ping' then only on the one nearest to the spirit is discovered.

3) The 'ping' only proides the spirit with the direction and approximate distance to the target's location, and this information is only fully accurate in the moment the power returns the 'ping' (i.e., at the end of the Extended Test interval that gathers sufficient hits). Since the location of the 'ping' does not move even if the target does, following a moving taget may require several uses of the Search power as the magician closes in on the target's location.

That's pretty essential, as otherwise the spirit attempts to plow through any wards in the way while searching. And it would seem likely that having a spirit search though the Aztechnology Pyramid because you told it to search the city would get a response.

The spirit does not plow through wards even if it moves whet it uses the power. If it did the -Force modifier for the test would not be justified. It is a standard visibility penlty for astrally percieving something behind a ward.

Wow, so much angst! Someone needs to get laid-- be cool man, we've read the rules. Though sometimes they are misunderstood. Also, where did anyone say that a ward increases the Threshold, that seems to have bunched up your panties? I missed that post? I see how kzt's post sorta implies that-- but no big deal.

Just for everyone's reading pleasure...



Based on the above, all the summoner needs to give is a mental image of the target. The spirit can search on that basis. Now it's well within the rights of the GM to apply a bonus or penalty based on the quality of information being passed to the spirit. If that's an older picture, it may not be quite the same as the target. Or it could be a picture of the target taken yesterday. Quality of source information definitely plays into your ability to work with it effectively.

Read my suggestion. Then take a look at the Search rules. Go back to the suggestion...
What's this? I have exempted Search from the number of rolls limit. Reading comprehension for the win!


Or, you know, you could avoid the Dice Pool Modifiers because they are fucking stupid, & impose a maximum number of rolls to Extended Tests equal to Attribute + Skill. They are not difficult to balance at all; a little tricky, possibly, but not difficult.

Jeez, don't you get tired of writing that "Get off my lawn!" angry old man-schtick?
If you'd at least tried to be fun or constructive while ranting, but screaming "Everything and everyone sucks!" at the top of your lungs becomes seriously tiresome to read...

Be that as it may, Muspellsheimr tends to have more good points than bad ones, even when I disagree with him.

Just a note... I do not agree with restricting the Watcher to Extended Test Limits... their PRIMARY POWER is Search (really their only power) and the interval is 10 minutes... giving a minimum target of 5 will result in a mimimun of 30 minutes for the search, assuming all rolls are successes and no penalties are applied...

We are not in disagreement on this point...

As for the generality of ExtendedTests... I do not see the difficulty you ascribe to balancing them...

Ask the followign Questions:
Is it important to limit them? Then apply the Extended Test Rules with a decrimenting pool...
Is is not really an issue, or not dramatically appropriate... then who cares...

AS I Said before... You can completely rebuild and restore a car given enough time and resources... even if you don't know a nut from a bolt, eventually, with a little bit of reading and a lot of patience, you will succeed... There is no need to roll for this. Hell, I would just make you buy your Hits (4:1) and evaluate the interval based upon what worked for the game...only working on weekends, probably an interval of a week... only able to spend a little in the way of resources, well then your interval would be a month... eventually you will succeed...

Now, lets turn this around... You hear word on the street that the Triads are out to kill you and have put a contract out on your head... you have been hiding in your safehouse for the last couple of days, and your car is on the fritz, engine blown... you have all of the resources/tools/parts, etc sitting in the shop just waiting to be put together... but you do not know how long until they track you down... you need the car to get you out, and so you set to work... well, your interval is a Day and you have seriously intricate work to do (12 Successes)... so you roll up your sleeves and get cracking... Extended Test Rules are in place, and you need to accumulate those 12 rolls in 3 days (which you do not necessarily know) or you are dead... can you do it?

This is what the extended test rules are supposed to simulate... Nothing more...

Keep the Faith...

It's always good, when people are seriously looking to break in and kill you, to get deeply involved in task that a) take all you concentration, b) involve lots of noisy machine tools, and c) keep your hands covered in oil. I'd suggest a cab.

Try again.

Watchers are much more useful in watching someone/something that has already been found - like a team member walking back to the restroom of the club or your vehicle parked outside - and keeping you informed of what happens through the spirit-summoner link. If it's instructed to repeat after you, it becomes an astral speaker on the other end too.

I generally leave inmportant uses of Search to bigger and better spirits.

You are missing the point, it was an example of when you might use the Extended test rules... and besides, what if you were out in the country, no cab around, and all you had was a broke down vehicle that you could fix to get away... beats walking anyday, if you can get it fixed...

Keep the Faith...

Saying the same things over and over agian does not make you right... Sorry...
It has nothing to do with Reading Comprehension... it has to do with playability...

Keep the Faith...

I don't know, in that situation I think a person might be better off on foot.