I know, I know, it's a cardinal sin not to have extra IPs, but my character doesn't have them and I utterly refuse to buy Wired Reflexes as I've chosen to only use bioware.

So what I'm looking for is thoughts and ideas, given a particular load out how to minimize the impact of having fewer IPs than everyone else in the team.

I'm not concerned in wide open outdoor/urban environments. It's during an infiltration gone wrong that I am concerned. Stat wise I'm looking at an 8 agility on this character with 4 in automatics, and 5 in infiltration. Inquiry for any further relevant stats. The typical weapon/armor load out this character will wear for an infiltration will be a Chameleon Suit with thermal dampening 6 worn over half-body form fitted body armor. Weapon load out would primarily be an Ares Alpha assault rifle configured towards indoor sharpshooting and a P93 Praetor, both weapons also have chameleon coating on them so they don't give away position while used with the chameleon suit.

The lack of extra IPs is definitely a huge detriment as I look at the situation, but I forced myself into it by going bio only. Synaptic Boosters are just too expensive at character creation to justify obtaining. The way I look at it, given my dicepool (15), I will likely be able to take down most opponents with 2 shots that connect, if not one. However, if the single shot doesn't kill an opponent, most opponents will likely be sacked with a -2 or -3 DP wound penalty. These are the two methods of tactics that I am considering employing.

I'm looking at further recommendations of tactics as well as opinion on which of the two tactics I've described would you think is better to use until I can scrounge enough for synaptic boosters.

My advice would be to get a gun with full-auto. Suppressive fire is actually more useful the fewer IPs you have. Then you can cover a chunk of the battlefield while your teammates deal with the rest. Plus, with your high dice pool, enemies in the area of effect will be hard-pressed to avoid damage.

Keep pumping your edge, since you can spend a point for an extra IP when you really need it. Make liberal use of suppressive fire, since the effect lasts until your action, meaning it will endure though an entire combat turn. Always work with a buddy to cover the guy you didn't have an action to deal with. Max out your recoil compensation, so you can accurately fire 3 short bursts per complex action.

When all else fails, get addicted to Cram or Jazz.

Addictions are not an option. My character doesn't treat his body like crap.

Unfortunately our GM has granted everyone a bonus IP for the hell of it, so our base IPs are actually 2, which means suppressive fire less attractive as an option.

If suppressive fires does not seem all that attractive for you, the other way to go would be to maximize the damage for each shot fired, and this means Sniper Rifles. The Ares Desert Fox is a good, fairly cheap sniper rifle, but if you want the best of the best, go for the Barrett Model 121 (the availability will make it harder to get at character creation). I would also recommend dropping the SMG and picking up a Slivergun for dealing with softer targets up close. If you really want the SMG, or simply dislike flechette, I would trade the P93 out for an MP5 and load it up with Stick-n-Shock ammo. The MP5 is cheaper and has better RC than the P93, and I doubt you will be needing the 50 round clip which is the primary attraction on the P93.

Unless you want to further penalize your character, take Synaptic Boosters, the bioware equivalent of Wired reflexes, instead. A pure Biosam can work well, but then Synaptic boosters are a must-have IMHO.

The other tips are good. If you want to go into melee there are several maneuvers that make extra IPs unnecessary. Two weapon style and riposte come to mind.

The MP5's recoil comp is inferior to that of the P93, because the MP5 uses a R2 gas vent to get it, whereas the P93 has a magical, unexplained, mystical random point of recoil compensation, can still have a gas vent added, and is available with discount electronic firing. Sniper rifles are a poor choice as a primary weapon because of the rough handling rules in SR4A and much like shotguns or the Ares Viper, would require you to switch to a different primary combat skill. The Viper is also terrible against spirits and drones because the damage gets ignored rather than converted to stun if you don't beat the armor value.

Shotguns, sniper rifles and submachineguns are neat, but they all have drawbacks that keep them from competing with a real assault rifle when selecting a primary weapon system.

With the IP inflation, the effects of suppressive fire are reduced, but I do have to mirror the suggestion of switching your secondary weapon to StickNShock.

Getting back to tactical decisions, is this character generally operating alone, out ahead of the rest of his team, or is he moving with the herd?

Nice of your GM to give you all a bonus IP.

I'd echo the edge attribute. Always nice to have the ability to use a point and get an extra IP.

I'd also say, for this build, trying to get a surprise round, would be huge.

That's about it...you don't want cyber, you don't want drugs...so your bio and edge are the only other ways to deal with IP. Unless you can find a mage that's willing to boost you magically...

I said that I felt Synaptic Boosters were too expensive at character creation. They are the first up bioware I am buying, and since we've removed magic from the campaign the DM is giving bioware a 50% discount after character creation, so they'll only be 56k for SB1, and 112k for SB2 instead of 80/160 at creation.



The P93 is 2(3). As far as I can tell, the stock is supposed to give the extra point of recoil. 1 Integral, 1 from stock, 1 from electronic firing.
The MP5 is 2(3) as well, it has gas vent 2 and a detachable folding stock.

I tend to choose weapons for coolness factor as much as ability. I love the P90, so the P93 was a logical choice. A sniper rifle indoors may still be more effective for me. I have 5 longarms with a specialization in sniper rifles, and a reflex recorder for longarms. So I got +4 dice over assault rifles when using a sniper rifle. I'm tempted to ask that if I mod this sharpshooting assault rifle to only semi-auto if I could function it on longarms, just not gaining the benefit of my specialization.

I honestly don't know how he will play out during an infiltration. The rest of the group, combat wise, consists of an unarmed maniac, a blade user, and a person that dual-wields pistols, the two melee characters are another reason I am loath to use suppressive fire. Due to his very high infiltration, compared to the rest of his team, and the difficulty in detecting him, I imagine he would be with the group but away from it at the same time, either scouting ahead, hanging back. I can place him anywhere, but I know that when combat occurs he will not be clustered with the rest of the group.

As for stick and shock, my character has his clips filled 50/50 between Explosive and SnS, except for his real sniper rifle which is 50/50 EX-Explosive and SnS.



I've stated earlier that we've removed magic, so yes the only way for me to get more IPs is through edge and bioware. Unfortunately my edge stat is only 4 of a possible 7, and my highest desires for the purpose of spending karma is to raise my automatics to 5 so I can get a specialization (yes I have firearms(4)), and to increase my edge stat. As an aside note, being human grants a bonus +1 to Edge, so my base edge stat is 3. If I improve my Edge via karma, will it cost 12 (3->4) or 15 (4->5)?

I know exactly how you feel. My character is an infiltrator with no cyber, just bio. And no extra IP's (he also treats his body like a temple )
So, as others said. Pump your edge to gain extra passes AND preferably, use a semi-automatic grenade launcher (it doesn't need to be explosive grenades, gas grenades are fine too). Since you will be using it indoors mostly, you add a burst link so the grenade will explode on your current turn and you can benefit from the "multiple waves" effect in tight spaces (of course, be careful where you shoot at).



Actully none. If you check the last errata, increasing attributes cost new rating x5 now, so you would spend 25 karma to increase from 4 to 5.

I love the P90 and have come to appreciate the P93. However my choice weapon is the natural compliment to the P90/P93, the FN Five-seveN/FN 5-7c. Modify it for full auto and you have a highly versatile weapon which shares a skill with your primary weapon but keeps a pistol's profile.

For mitigating IPs I wouldn't worry that much if you have two already. Pump your edge up to around 4 or 5 so you can grab the extra round when you need it and as long as your GM isn't lifting the cap on IPs you should be able to keep up without a booster.

It also might not be a bad idea to invest in a few derms of a carefully selected combat drug. Everyone's luck runs out sometime and you never know when that moment will creep up on you when you really want a second option. For the cost you can't beat a few hits of go juice in a pinch.

His character won't do drugs (for RP reasons I believe). Although I gotta say, it is really hard to play a "catholic old school" runner...

It's not a matter of "doing" drugs. For the vast majority of your career the derms sit in your pack next to that condom you never use. It's there for when the situation gets so sticky that clinging to your ideals gets you killed while a moment of drug fueled super soldiery might just buy you the edge you need to stay free.

Plus it's a great personality thing for a character. Cut and dried morals and codes can be a bit stale. Sometimes playing a bit with the frayed edges of character's ideals and desires can be fun. The idea of a burnout magician might be anathema to a true min/maxer, but they can be an absolute blast to play and make for a really rich and flawed character.

Not that I'm pushing drugs or anything, just story. The vast majority of my character would never mess with the brain benders or the go juice, but a few have fell down that slippery slope.

It's a lot easier if you drop all your other qualities and take Type O System. Preserve your body's sanctity AND save a bucket on bioware!

Preserving the sanctity of your own body is a whole different thing from respecting the sanctity of someone else's body. Just because I won't chem up and use bio over cyber doesn't mean I'm not willing to sneak up and grab someone from behind and stick a knife in his back.

I totally agree with you. My whole "catholic old school" was as a reference for a runner who won't wear cyber nor drugs.
And otaku, I know exactly what you mean. My character is quite tempted on experimenting novacoke for the reaction and perception boost it gives after seeing his addicted cousin using it.

I had a player once score a hit of Kamekaze that he kept under wraps until later in the campaign. I was nearly as surprised as everyone else when the hacker popped the derm and for a few glorious moments wrapped up the remaining opposition to the party and just barely made it out of the situation himself. I knew for a fact that the player expected his buddies to be toasting his sacrifice that night, but he had just enough to left to pull it off. Of course he was just an opportunist, not someone with with ideals and convictions.

Well, he did have some convictions. But the state had let him out early for good behavior.

i have been worried about this for my upcoming character who will only have one IP. i followed a theme and it left me without the money for synaptic boost which is all that would fit in my remaining essence. i already took born rich for $300,000 and am $25,000 in debt 8(. i was planning on using the "until your next action" stuff like full dodge and suppressing fire.

we didnt get a free IP but our group has worked out the combat system though where your movment is broken up over all the IP(not just the ones you have) and you can move on all IP's. also if you only have 1 IP we dont require it to be used on the first of the round. if you want you can skip the first 2 IPs and use it on the 3rd.

Ah! Excellent story, and excellent pun. Well done, sir.

Now, I don't know how well a physical infiltrator can do for him(/her)self with one IP, but if you want to jump into a drone and infiltrate from there (which might be easier, if you pick a really inconspicuous-looking drone) you can get 4 matrix IPs sans cyberware, if you jump in with trodes.

EDIT: 4R and 100 nuYen for a dose of Kamikaze?!? That's absurd! I guess the real price is the one it takes out of your body, 'cause that's easier and cheaper than I assumed it would be.

Seriously, right? That story hails back to third when it burned a box of your damage track every time you took a hit. You should have seen his face when the player read about K12. I'm just gland the heavier combat drugs are so taboo at my table or else the kids would most certainly not be alright.

Doesn't stop me from picking up a few doses for my character on the off week game. So far he hasn't hit anything harder than Zero (allergies, ya know?) but there's nothing stopping him from deciding to hit the hard stuff if things get tough. It's hard being a hacker, sometimes you wanna be Captain UCAS for a minute and a half. Usually that's all it takes.

"You're just gland the heavier combat drugs are taboo?" Someone has bioware on the brain.

That is a good tip, and even possible by the RAW - see delayed IPs (pg. 134 for the German main book). You get some nice options (like going first in the second IP) on top.

Yeah, but bioware is just a "natural improvement" of your body.
We have the technology. Better than he was before. Better, stronger, faster.

1. Take Restricted Gear Quality (5 BP) (Runner's Companion)(When/If Creating Character)
2. Buy H&K Urban Combat SMG (Arsenal)
3. Add Electronic Firing (as accessory), Underbarrel Weight (as Accesessory),skinlink (as Accessory),Improved Range finder (as Accessory)
Chameleon Coating (as Accessory) everything costing 5440 yen (Including gun)
4. Buy Contact Lenses/Classes/Goggles w/smartgun system
Now: Silenced,no range penalties under 40 m,SA/BF/FA, 4 RC, 36 round Clip..Perfect Infilitratior's gun..(IMOO)

Nice idea, except that gun can't be modifed and the underbarrel weight only helps when firing Full Burts anyway.
But i agree H&K urban Combat is a nice gun, but definedly not worth the Restricted Gear quality.

Those add-ons are AS Accessories not modifications (no skill needed=accessories=Legal RAW)
From Arsenal (p.153) "an Underbarrel weight at the end
of the barrel helps control the recoil, providing 1 point of recoil compensation" no mention of
Full Bursts (cost of 25 yen p. 151, Arsenal), other Underbarrel weight accessory cost 75 yen,mount:under (page 34, Arsenal)
and that underbarrel weight is the item you pointing at..

I'm totally with you on the p93. 5 "shots" of supressive fire makes that one painful area denial weapon. Also, since you're getting your RC from non-gas vent sources, you don't have to worry about that pesky gas-vent/sound supressor incompatibility.

The HK gun IS nice... if you can afford the extra restricted gear at character creation. The fact that it can't be modified is kind of a pain, though.

Consider a machine pistol. A third, smaller, weapon is handy for "New York reloads"(pull another gun), those situations where you need to conceal your guns, or for handoff to a willing extraction target/disarmed teammate/etc. For extra security, you can load it with nonlethal ammo and have the gun rigged to explode on command. (DO have the skinlink override this ability until you hand it off, though. Wouldn't want the gun to explode in your pocket due to an enemy hacker.)

With an 8 agility, I agree, you should be able to pick up 1 or 1[3] in a secondary weapon for added versatility. My choice would be heavy weapons for yer grenade launcher or throwing weapons for grenades and improvised projectiles.

Stingray, can you give a quote that says Electronic Firing is available as an accessory? That logically(gasp!) would require messing around with the INSIDE of the gun to make it work.


EDIT:spelling.

ok. look at Arsenal, p 149 table,Electronic Firing have no mention of Special Skills, now look at p. 148
MODIFICATIONS vs. Accssories " The difference between two of them is that accessories can be installed without
requiring extensive mechanical knowledge (=Special Skill)(remember not mentioned w/electronic firing ->making it Accessory)
while modifcations require an application of the modification rules mentioned at..."

Aah, I see where you're coming from, and I have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation of the text. The relevant part is:

The fact that some mods require an extra skill (apart from Armorer, which is required for all weapon modifications) is irrelavant to whether or not the modification in question is available as an accessory.

The modifications that are available as firearm accessories are also listed in the firearms accessories section of Arsenal or in the BBB.

An example of this is the Underbarrel weight that you referenced in one of your earlier posts. which is listed under "recoil compensators" on p. 35 of Arsenal. If the electronic firing mechanism was similarly available as an accessory, it would ALSO be listed in that section of the book. Since the electronic firing mechanism is not mentioned anywhere else in the rules besides the weapon modifications section of Arsenal, I am forced to conclude that it is ONLY available as a weapon modification.

Those that your pointing at are modifications that urban combat can't have.
Modifications can't be had as accessories, except for those that are listed as accessories in the BBB or Arsenal(and yeas some of them have different rules as accessories then as modifications)

Damn douple post.

..ok..what about Supermach 100 (can not mount barrel or under- barrel accessories.
add Internal Smartgun system, Internal Sound suppressor (Modification), Firing Selection change (add BF-mode)
Personalized grip,Electronic Firing, Chameleon Coating and skinlink..
no barrel or under- barrel accessories were used..

Pretty nice, but Personalized grip and Electronic Firing don't stack.

ok..still 4(5) RC is pretty good, if optional rule STR->rc is allowed.. 1 or more RC..
or just Ares Alpha w/sound suppressor,Personalized Grip and Underbarrel weight and Barrel Reduction..

Wow. I'm seeing a LOT of replies to the IC with stuff about "how to get more IPs" and "the best equipment to use", but not very much on actual tactics.

So, assuming that the Character in question will actually be sticking to the GM-Mandated x2IPs (no more), and has already decided on equipment, I'm going to suggest a few actual tactics to help maximize his effectiveness.

1. If you expect to engage opponents that will have more IPs than you, I would always spend my 2nd pass on Full Defense in addition to making sure that I have ample cover. Heck, depending upon how your team is outfitted, you might even consider using your first SA to fire a Short/Long Burst at a target and use your 2nd SA to launch something like a Flash Grenade (Arsenal, pgs 36-37) into whatever baddies are left.

2. If you and your teammates can see in the dark (low-light, thermo, etc.) but your opposition cannot, use whatever means you can to "turn off the lights", or have your Team Hacker do it. More penalties for the badguys means you are less likely to get shot, especially if they have more IPs than you do.

To me, it seems like the most important thing to do when dealing with opponents that have more IPs than you is to do everything in your power to make it as hard as possible for them to hit you. Being on Full Defense from your Second pass in one Round all the way until your first pass in the next Round will go a long way towards keeping you alive.

I'll post more when I have more time.

"Turn off the lights" is my mantra, but "Turn off the lights" means not being able to locate me. There's been a few changes in situation.

In an indoor environment I will be wearing a chameleon suit with thermal dampening and carrying two weapons, both with chameleon coating and built in silencers/suppressors. One weapon is a sporting rifle classification, but with assault rifle equivalent stats sans automatic firing modes. The other will be a P93 or Ares Alpha depending on my expectation of resistance. Someone will need to be seeing in ultrasound to mitigate any visual penalties I impose on them.

I like the full defense idea, but it may be relatively pointless if the bonus IP is granted just to PCs and not NPCs, which I suspect may be the case. I doubt that at 2 IPs it would be rare to face NPCs that exceed our base of 2 IPs.

We're looking to getting a Tac-soft to use. If the GM allows me to use my Leadership (2) with Tactics specialization to grant bonuses (beyond the tacsoft bonuses) to my team mates as perhaps a complex action, I may do that for one IP as well.

Gotcha. 'Lights-out' prob won't be necessary for you then.




Actually, its even better if you have 2 IPs and most of your opponents only have 1. Assuming you go before them, spend your first pass on going Full Def. Then your opponents will spend their one and only IP in a futile attempt at shooting you. Then on your second pass, you shoot them. This really only works well if you are reasonably assured of going ahead of your opponents in initiative, and if they do not have 2 or more IPs.




That will be really great if you can remain hidden for at least the first Initiative Pass.

I didn't think about that, but that's a tactic for if/when I got spotted.




It's not just great, it's perfect, since that gives me one turn to study opponents to get my Synch combat bonus. The hidden part shouldn't be difficult, 5 Infiltration + 8 Agility. With a -4 for my opponents to see me normally, -6 via thermal. That's going to severely reduce most NPCs pools, and that's not including any other miscellaneous penalties that they may receive. 3-4 Perception against my 13 infiltration is probably how things will look many times, and some NPCs may very well be reduced to 1-2, if not 0.

This tactic even works if you're slower than the opposition. Full Defense can also be used as an interrupt action. As such it can be used anytime consuming the character's next available complex action.

StealthSigma, how DO you handle it when you eventually come up against someone who's "seeing" with ultrasound? As far as I can tell, ruthenium polymers and thermal damping wouldn't help, and smoke/glare/darkness would give more than a -3 penalty. Is a just a matter of having better AGI+infiltration than they do INT+perception?

Sound-absorving material?
Just put a lot of egg boxes on your chameleon suit

I don't know of any way to fool ultrasound, I've looked, aside from putting an object between you and them. Maybe flashbangs would cause enough disorientation to foul up their senses. My guess is the best way to deal with ultrasound is to appear as another object or just avoid it. For example, in a wax museum, stand by the wax statues and remain motionless.

Sound absorbing and wave negating would be bad tactics to use only because while they won't know where you are, they know you are there based on the sound received by other objects in the vicinity. Like if you are 3 meters from a wall and you're wearing an absorbing/negating method, the Ultrasound user won't see you, but they will see a wall, then a gap, then another wall. They know you're there, just not specifically where. The only way that I can think of to fool ultrasound would be a method similar to ruthenium, where sound waves are received and then spat out the other side at the appropriate strength.

The other tactics are avoiding opposition with ultrasound sensors, which is not always possible and shooting first.

There could also be ultrasound emitters similar to flashpacks.

Apparently no one found my joke funny (you guys have no sense of humer... ) but it has some truth to it. Just like with Stealth bombers (who use "weird" geometric design together with radar-absorbing material) you could have sound-absorbing material added to your armor. While the materials would be different, the physical principle is the same. Perhaps you have a coat of spongous material or something that absorbs the sound (total or partially) emitted to you, that makes your "sound signature" weaker.
This is, aside with pressure plates, the only way to keep you virtually undetectable.

Not really...or at least it doesn't work for more than one Round.

The point of my tactic is that you are on full def for the entire time that the badguys are shooting at you, but they are all out of actions when you shoot at them.

If they have more IPs than you do, and you have to keep borrowing your next action to go full def, then they will keep shooting and you will keep dodging but you will never have a chance to shoot back.

Now, if you aren't truly outnumbered, you can always go full def for your first pass, then delay you second pass until after everyone else has gone, and THEN shoot.

I don't have my book with me to make sure that's legal, but if it is, it's a good plan for dealing with multiple IP opponents.

That wouldn't work because you'd end up as a hole in space. "Stealth" RADAR evasion works because the radio signal is expected to never reflect back if it is fired into an empty sky. If someone is using ultrasound, and their system shows an infinite hole in reality just in front of them, the operator will know that a problem of some sort exists.

That wouldn't work because you'd end up as a hole in space. "Stealth" RADAR evasion works because the radio signal is expected to never reflect back if it is fired into an empty sky. If someone is using ultrasound, and their system shows an infinite hole in reality just in front of them, the operator will know that a problem of some sort exists.

Ok, it might not work indoors, but on open field, why not? I'm AFB but I don't think that ultra-sound vision has "horizon" as LoS limitator and must have a shorter range that it works properly.
Also, radar absorbing material does not make you inivisible to radars, just reduces your signature to something as small as a vulture. The sound analogous wouldn't make a "black hole", it would just reduce your signature to the size of a cat or smaller.

Right, but you can calculate distance based on the strength of the returning wave signal. Anti-radar materials deflect waves in a way that doesn't reflect it back at the station, or reduces your cross-section so that radar can't track you. Reducing your profile size to that of a vulture will draw some WTF glances because birds don't fly that high. Ultrasound has very good resolutions as well, so at shorter distances you would look like an anomaly, not a cat.