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Regiment
I was wondering for those of you out there that have made Intuition Traditions, if you would post the specifics (and hopefully some background or fluff to go along with them).

I got caught up in another topic and some areas talked about made me wonder what Intuition based Traditions have been made by all you uber-badass dumpshockers.

Any attached Mentor Spirits would be great as well.

I'm just looking for some ideas to steal (or glean inspiration) from, using all you nice folks that have already done the hard work and maybe even tested them some.

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Neraph
Sorcery
Combat: Fire
Detection: Air
Health: Man
Illusion: Water
Manipulation: Earth
Drain: Willpower + Intuition

Most hermetics train rigorously, pouring over texts and studying magical formulae for hours. Sorcerers, however, innately know the workings of how to channel the arcane powers. After some time comparing, it appears that sorcerers and hermetics utilize the same energies and summon the same elementals, but while hermetics must study and research for hours to accomplish much, sorcerers are able to feel the powers and manipulate them innately, without much preparation.

Whereas hermetics rely on cold logic and proven formulae, sorcerers tend towards the passion and freedom of their emotions.

NOTE: In D&D terms - Hermetic = Wizard. Sorcery = Sorcerer. Also, think Hermetic like most wizards from the Sword of Truth series, and Sorcerers like War Wizards.
Mx
QUOTE (Neraph @ Aug 14 2009, 06:36 PM) *
Sorcery
Combat: Fire
Detection: Air
Health: Man
Illusion: Water
Manipulation: Earth
Drain: Willpower + Intuition

Most hermetics train rigorously, pouring over texts and studying magical formulae for hours. Sorcerers, however, innately know the workings of how to channel the arcane powers. After some time comparing, it appears that sorcerers and hermetics utilize the same energies and summon the same elementals, but while hermetics must study and research for hours to accomplish much, sorcerers are able to feel the powers and manipulate them innately, without much preparation.

Whereas hermetics rely on cold logic and proven formulae, sorcerers tend towards the passion and freedom of their emotions.

NOTE: In D&D terms - Hermetic = Wizard. Sorcery = Sorcerer. Also, think Hermetic like most wizards from the Sword of Truth series, and Sorcerers like War Wizards.

Aren't the Sorcerors from D&D a Charisma tradition.
Neraph
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 14 2009, 09:42 AM) *
Aren't the Sorcerors from D&D a Charisma tradition.

SHhhh!

Instead of doing the "strength of personality" thing, I was working on more of a "this is how I innately feel magic to work" thing.
Ol' Scratch
There's several traditions that I think should be Intuition based rather than the ones we were given (most of which were made Charisma traditions). Aboriginal, Christian, Norse and Shinto come immediately to mind.
McAllister
I think they got it right with Wicca (which can be Gardnerian [Logic] or Goddess [Intuition]). Given all the important things you can only share within a tradition (spell formulae, magical lodges, magical groups unless they're designed to accommodate multiple traditions) it makes sense for there to be different points of view (sects?) within a tradition. For example, if you're a Norse magician and you identify with Loki, you're going to do fine with a Charisma tradition that has Fire spirits; however, if you identify more with Odin, perhaps you'd represent the sacrifice of his eye for wisdom by replacing Fire spirits with Guidance spirits for Health, and replacing Charisma for Intuition to represent the wisdom he gained. Still Norse, just another way of looking at it.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 14 2009, 10:42 AM) *
Aren't the Sorcerors from D&D a Charisma tradition.


Yes, but D&D only has Intelligence (Logic), Wisdom (Willpower), and Charisma (Charisma). If D&D has intuition, it would be a far better fit for sorcerers than charisma. rotfl.gif
siel
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 14 2009, 08:52 AM) *
There's several traditions that I think should be Intuition based rather than the ones we were given (most of which were made Charisma traditions). Aboriginal, Christian, Norse and Shinto come immediately to mind.

Could you explain why they should be intuition based?


Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (siel @ Aug 14 2009, 03:07 PM) *
Could you explain why they should be intuition based?

Intuition is all about understanding, whereas Charisma is more about influencing. I'd say most religions -- at least as a magical tradition as opposed to being a missionary or zealot -- are all about being introspective, understanding the world around you and the meaning of your existence far more than it has to do with influencing others into believing the way you do or forcing your will upon them. That's what priests are for, not magicians, monks, or other personal-reflection types.

This is as opposed to Awakened characters like Black Magicians who are more into-the-moment and forcing their will upon others.
Falconer
I'd say understanding is the wrong word.


Logic is about understanding. This is the theory, this is the model, if X then Y. Spend some time w/ a Jesuit, you'll quickly understand exactly how much logical philosophy play a part in at least Catholic theurgy.

Intuition is gut feel. This feels correct and the right way to do it. Understanding isn't really necessary so much as simply feeling your way through and going with the flow.

Charisma is damn the paradox... it's this way because I can force it on reality using sheer force of will... (wait... we're talking SR not Mage).
WyldKnight
Though he makes a point, Intuition is the closest thing to faith which I would think plays a key part in any religion based tradition.
siel
So what would a shaman asking his Wolf mentor spirit to give him power and a Christian priest praying to god for protection be?

McCummhail
I can get behind the notion that some of the ones suggested, such as Christianity might be better served as intuition based,
but then again Animistic traditions such as Shinto and some Aboriginal paths are more about maintaining a relationship with the spirits around you.
As much as I would personally prefer Shinto to be intuition based so it fit my character like a glove,
I think that it makes more sense for a paradigm about appeasing and coercing the spirits to be Charisma based.

Norse should intuition if Druids are though. Norse draws its magic from the runes guided by the teachings of the Aesir,
even if the runes are concrete their interpretations and application are anything but that.
McAllister
Charisma focus: Placating/dealing with spirits.

Logic focus: Understanding the mechanics of the astral.

Intuition focus: Maintaining traditions and harmony.

Here's the overlap between Logic and Intuition: a Logic mage has a list of things to do for a ritual, just like an Intuition mage, but the Logic mage probably found his list on the Matrix and independently examined WHY each step works the way it does, whereas the Intuition mage was taught the ritual by his/her mentor/a spirit/made it up himself, and sticks to it because it works the way it does because that's the way it is.

Here's the overlap between Charisma and Intuition: a Charisma mage and an Intuition mage both seek to maintain the sort of mystical harmony that makes the Astral happy and is destroyed by pollution and cyberware, but the Charisma mage deals with improving the lot of spirits by interacting with them and solving their problems/giving them veneration, whereas the Intuition mage deals with improving the whole planet by doing things that are good in general, based on the tenets of his/her tradition (stuff like cleaning up waste dumps, not abusing spirits/foci, ritual oblations not directed to a specific spirit etc.)

Help at all?
Falconer
I may be going a little too far here... but I love how in this culture, everyone assumes because you don't understand it, it's not logical and must be intuitive. I'd say that anyone who's sticking strictly to a wrote formula w/o understanding it is logic.


I disagree strongly w/ most of the implications of religion and intution. Faith != intuition... faith itself is both counter-intuitive and in some ways non-logical. Faith to me, is you take something on trust, there's no way to prove it, there's no way to disprove it. Also, most religious sects themselves have strongly charismatic elements (proselytizing, caring for the flocks, convincing the masses), I don't think intution comes into those as much.


I agree, strongly w/ the one poster that Intuition is the best way to describe the difference between a hermetic and a sorcerer. The one studies and understands the ritual and it's implications (or doesn't, and is just going through the motions. but there's a hard formula there). For the other, the magic is just innate, he uses it by feel. IMO: intution is much closer to how dragon magic is described... the raw magic just is... we simply shape it by thought to our needs.


All the book intuition traditions are based on maintaining an intuitive balance of sorts.

Buddhism tends to have a lot of that maintaining balance while seeking enlightenment. All the nature based ones (druids and wiccans... 2 equivalent traditions with only one difference beast intsead of fire spirits for combat... really authors. lets get a little more diversity there; And really english druids vs. gardnerian wicca strikes me as practically the same thing). Only witchcraft is different... and that seems to be largely an element of... we're neo-pagans of sort playing with things we don't really comprehend in an oral tradition.


I don't get how people would get 'pact magic' where your playing lets make a deal as intuition. That strikes me much more as charisma. Similarly, whenever you get folks who want a more psionic bent, the magic comes from ME and my own strength, that also strikes me as charisma... (I don't manipulate the magic around me, I'm the source of the magic... while I disagree completely that they're that special, they actually are manipulating the surrounding mana, and just self-deluding themselves into thinking that they are the source of their own power. This argument is normally couched in another that because I'm the source of my own power I should be immune to background counts... uh no).


I guess in the end a good way to go would be... are you seeking enlightenment and balance through the magic. Or are you seeking to study and understand the magic to invoke it.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 15 2009, 08:53 AM) *
I disagree strongly w/ most of the implications of religion and intution. Faith != intuition... faith itself is both counter-intuitive and in some ways non-logical. Faith to me, is you take something on trust, there's no way to prove it, there's no way to disprove it. Also, most religious sects themselves have strongly charismatic elements (proselytizing, caring for the flocks, convincing the masses), I don't think intution comes into those as much.

Who said Intuition = Faith?

Intuition is to Shadowrun what Wisdom is to Dungeons & Dragons. Wisdom just happens to have been split between Intuition and Willpower in Shadowrun, much like Dexterity was split into Agility and Reaction.

That said, Charisma is one's force of personality and ability to influence others. Intuition is one's ability to take things in, realize what they mean, and all around enlightenment. Which of those is a more accurate representation of someone who firmly believes in and studies their religion? A religious person is NOT necessarily a religious leader or preacher; those are the character's who will have a high Charisma score. But that is completely separate and independent from what their core attribute should be as far as their magic goes. You know, much like how a Wild West gunslinger doesn't use Charisma to shoot his guns, even though he may be the most intimidating son of a bitches you'll ever meet. Again; completely separate concepts.

Magicians are closer to cloistered clerics and monks than they are bishops and priests. Intuition all the way.
Regiment
Ok, I'm gonna take a stab at this one smile.gif (warning, it's long, and I tend to babble)

QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 15 2009, 06:53 AM) *
I may be going a little too far here... but I love how in this culture, everyone assumes because you don't understand it, it's not logical and must be intuitive. I'd say that anyone who's sticking strictly to a wrote formula w/o understanding it is logic.


But even in understanding that rote formula, you're referring to comprehension, not intuition. Comprehension would be a factor of intelligence, or logic.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 15 2009, 06:53 AM) *
I disagree strongly w/ most of the implications of religion and intution. Faith != intuition... faith itself is both counter-intuitive and in some ways non-logical. Faith to me, is you take something on trust, there's no way to prove it, there's no way to disprove it. Also, most religious sects themselves have strongly charismatic elements (proselytizing, caring for the flocks, convincing the masses), I don't think intution comes into those as much.


You are right, Faith does not equal INTuition. But, neither is Faith LOGical, nor is it CHArismatic (Thanks Keren, you've got me doing it now...*grumble*). What one CAN say is that Faith is believing in something that by its definition, cannot be proven. For when it DOES get proven, faith becomes irrelevant, and one's heavy amounts of belief, or lack of belief stop mattering completely.

As for the charismatic elements, those are not part of the religions. They are ways for the religions to prove to the world that they are good people, and believe the right things. There is ZERO charisma in a good christian helping someone by giving them a couple bucks, or bringing them food, or caring for them when their sick. Hell, the best doctors and nurses I've known were very business oriented and did their job, rather than coddling me and telling me what I wanted to hear. Charisma is an element of many religious figureheads and leaders because they bring more sheep into the flock. Not because it takes charisma to comprehend or understand what their religious doctrines say.

If given the current three attributes and being forced to pick one to fit a 'religious' aspect of our beloved Shadowrun magic, I'd say look at where it came from, not where it is to determine the meaning:

Logic is intelligence and comprehension in a way that one understands the law or math, or in this case both. This would then make sense that rote disciplines such as Hermeticism or Chaos Magic are reflected most by this attribute.

Charisma is how well one interacts with other people, be it an affect of their appearance, the power of their presence, or how well they can adapt socially. Shamanism and any traditions that view spirits as something that are bargained with, or beseeched, or work with the principle that their connection to a totem-type-aspect would be favoring this attribute. (This is not to say that ALL mentor-spirits practitioners fall into this category. Not all traditions that allow a mentor spirit are build around the concept of totems or living relationships with a spirit or spirits.)

Intuition is instinct and what feels right. This would be best represented by traditions where one takes the base information or available dogmatic writings or faith-based teachings and try to apply it in their life or art. While a preacher may be charismatic with his flock or helping the homeless and wanting to be known for it, and seen well for it, he is going to be intuitive in where he puts all the pieces together to make the magic work. The Faith-based writings and dogma have to be interpreted, and that interpretation is the key to which one would tie the magic attribute, hence, Intuition.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 15 2009, 06:53 AM) *
I agree, strongly w/ the one poster that Intuition is the best way to describe the difference between a hermetic and a sorcerer. The one studies and understands the ritual and it's implications (or doesn't, and is just going through the motions. but there's a hard formula there). For the other, the magic is just innate, he uses it by feel. IMO: intution is much closer to how dragon magic is described... the raw magic just is... we simply shape it by thought to our needs.


I'll agree with all of this one.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 15 2009, 06:53 AM) *
All the book intuition traditions are based on maintaining an intuitive balance of sorts.


But half the book charisma traditions are based on interpretation of a faith or 'old way' of doing magic. There's nothing charismatic about interpretation of history, legends, or religious texts.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 15 2009, 06:53 AM) *
Buddhism tends to have a lot of that maintaining balance while seeking enlightenment. All the nature based ones (druids and wiccans... 2 equivalent traditions with only one difference beast intsead of fire spirits for combat... really authors. lets get a little more diversity there; And really english druids vs. gardnerian wicca strikes me as practically the same thing). Only witchcraft is different... and that seems to be largely an element of... we're neo-pagans of sort playing with things we don't really comprehend in an oral tradition.


Druidism should have been Logic, it was one of the most scientific (although it was more primitive than our modern sciences, it WAS viewed in the same way by its practitioners). The book even says that Gardenarian is Logic, as would be Alexandrian, and half of the forms of wicca that cropped up between 1956 and 1980. This is fitting, they do not take an Intuitive approach to it all. Street Magic seperates those types of wicca from the eclectic styles and Goddess worshipping styles that are popular today, and lists those as Intuition.
Buddihism is a perfect example of why Intuition fits. It's what feels right in a given situation, learned over years, until you have a constant understanding of what is supposed to be done to be in harmony with yourself and the world around you. But, it's not the only way that Intuition can be used.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 15 2009, 06:53 AM) *
I don't get how people would get 'pact magic' where your playing lets make a deal as intuition. That strikes me much more as charisma. Similarly, whenever you get folks who want a more psionic bent, the magic comes from ME and my own strength, that also strikes me as charisma... (I don't manipulate the magic around me, I'm the source of the magic... while I disagree completely that they're that special, they actually are manipulating the surrounding mana, and just self-deluding themselves into thinking that they are the source of their own power. This argument is normally couched in another that because I'm the source of my own power I should be immune to background counts... uh no).


On the first thing about pact-magic, you're dead on... that's Charisma, or should be.
On Psionics, your own strength, force of will... Charisma is not something that works when you're alone. It simply doesn't. While one may have a strong personality and powerful presence, they MUST MUST MUST have an audience for their Charisma to be of any import AT ALL. It is simply the defining factor of the word and its representation in game terms. Remember, the attribute that is attached to a Tradition is based on what it's closest to at its roots, not at it's most common usage. Shamanism sees life as a living relationship to everything the practitioner interacts with: trees, doors, people, spirits, ancestors. Charisma makes sense there. Psionics is about developing the power of your mind to do something that is not logical by everything taught or learned so far. One would be using Intuition to find those new pathways for the mind to open be it through force or subtlety.
As far as the special concerns of the arguments of psychics, I agree. They're just tapping into another way to channel the mana, not breaking rules with it, or tapping into a new source of power.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 15 2009, 06:53 AM) *
I guess in the end a good way to go would be... are you seeking enlightenment and balance through the magic. Or are you seeking to study and understand the magic to invoke it.


... and it is your relationship to that power that should determine the base stat used, whichever of the three fits correctly for that relationship.

And here's a note for it all... If one were making a soldier tradition (which I'm working on doing) it would be based on Intuition. They would be a very utilitarian approach. They would use simple forms and rotes with Instincts guiding when, how, and where, etc. It would probably use UMT for its foundations, but they would be drilled into the practitioner in such a way that utilizing them would be second nature, letting orders and instinct be the guide.

The Tactician would probably be more of a logic user, but would be sitting in a war-room issuing commands. On the front line, a soldier uses his gut feelings, training that has become inherently second nature, and perception to know what, and how to respond with the most efficiency.

Its very contrary to Buddism or to Intuitive Wicca, but it's definitely an approach that is fitting to Intuition.

Regiment
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 15 2009, 08:24 AM) *
Who said Intuition = Faith?


He said Intuition != Faith, not Intuition = Faith.

I forget the original reference, but in old MUDs, ! was a toggle that changed the meaning of what it was connected to to the opposite... so does-not-equal is the meaning.

I assume he used this out of habit from old typing styles since there is not an equals sign with a slash through it on the keyboard. smile.gif
hobgoblin
its as old as computers.

basically, it shows up whenever there is a comparison between two values, and one wants the code to do something whenever the value on one side is not equal to the value on the other.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Regiment @ Aug 15 2009, 01:57 PM) *
He said Intuition != Faith, not Intuition = Faith.

He obviously implied someone was suggesting that Intuition was Faith by stating that.
Falconer
It's a discussion... I really don't need much of a rebuttal here. They were just opinion views w/o a lot else.

But on the 'psionic' being charisma. In the astral, charisma == strength. So yes it very much does a play a role alone and not only in interactions.

If you're standing in front of a ward (which regenerates once per combat turn, and not once per pass). It's your charisma which determines how much you can damage it in astral combat. Charisma directly reflects your ability to 'inflict change' w/o resorting to magic. Why shouldn't it reflect astral strength at manipulating it by sheer force of will?
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