Hi there,

I'm back with some questions that came up as I was creating my Street Sam


1. when purchasing cyber eyes do metahumans loose their natural benefits (ex. lowlight, thermo, etc) unless they install the cyber versions?

2. are cybereye protective covers and nictitating membranes compatible?


thanks for any replies.

1. Yes.

2. Um... no interaction is mentioned in the rules. I'd allow it, although doesn't flare compensation do the same thing as nictitating membranes anyhow?

thanks for answering the first question

for the second question, SR4 does not mention protective covers having flare comp, just additional armor protection for the eyes


additional question

if I include sub systems to alpha/beta/delta cyber eyes/ears, do I have to purchase it with the same cost modifier as the cyberware's grade?

No, he means that most cyber eyes have flare compensation, so nictating membranes are redundant, unless you don't get that option in your eyes, which would be a mistake since you'd have to spend more essence to get the membranes but not to have flare comp installed in existing cyber eyes.

And yes, you can only install options of equal grade ware as subsystems.

i see your point but according to its description on the p. 66 of the augmentation rulebook it says

Nictitating membranes reduce the effects of smoke and other
eye irritants, such as CS/tear gas; a character with this modification
may add 2 dice to his dice pool for resisting this type of
agents. ...


that's why i was thinking of combining it with cybereyes. So do cybereyes have the same benefit w/ or w/o protec tive covers?

You know, that's a damn good question. I'm not sure. I would think that cyber eyes would completely negate the effects on eyes, but I'll have to go get my books and look.

Edit: I can't find anything about it in the RAW that I could quote to you, but I think cybereyes are immune to that type of irritation.

You don't have normal eyes anymore. Everything that would aggrevate your normal eyes does not even come close to bothering your cyber-eyes-
You need to clean them by hand, because the system lubricating your eyes was removed with the eyes. Know that stuff you have in your eyes in the Mornings?
Yeah, that is being washed out of the eyes over the course of your sleeping night. Now imagine that not happening. You wake up with eyes full of dust/sand/grime.
Protective Covers and Nictating Membranes were incompatible under SR3.
Protective Covering only gives Armor for Eyes . . why that stupid thing was ever implemented in a system without hitlocations we will never know.
Basically, Protective Coverings were only there to look cool, or when you go diving, or into the desert,or into a snow-storm or something like that.

Other Question would be: Contact-Lenses have Capacity X, Sunglasses have capacity Z, why do these Things not get Capacity Y?

Basically, in our SR3 Group we took away essence cost/cost for room in Eye-Stuff and made them retractable.
Presto, built in Sun-Glasses that look cool and do guard your natural eyes. Also makes it harder to guess where someone is looking.
Or whether that someone is that hardcore that he takes these things to guard his cyber-eyes, or if he only wants to look cool . .

In my eyes(pardon the pun) protective covers are fluff-ware.

With regards to the protective coverings being superfluous, isn't there a called shot system?

i think i'll agree with you guys about cyber eyes not being affected so i'll kick the membranes out on my list then.

thanks for the input

Yes there is, but even if i were to aim up your left nostril, the armored boots on your feet would still add into the armor defending you.

Those things only if you have natural infrared and low-light.
An addendum: Those things were imcompatible with EVERYTHING aside from natural eyes and Cats-Eyes in SR3.
Dunno if that's still the case in SR4, but in SR3 that meant no natural eyes with built in light system and Nictating Membranes.

Edit: why does nobody tell me that i am mixing up the membranes and screen again? <.<

slightly off topic

if i get complete cyber limbs, torso and maybe a cyber skull all with say STR 8 on a human does muscle replacement boost my strength further? is it cumulative or redundant?

Sadly, that's redundant i am afraid.
Doesn't stack. Also, you can't get more than 9 in any attribute as a baseline human, no matter what you do.
Well, allmost.

Not in SR4.

Of course, it was completely silly before, too. Even Hatchetman mentioned that his cybereyes in fact were 'antistatic' (there was no lotos effect hype back then) so he wouldn't blink very often. And unless you want really badly irritated eyelids, you still need tears if you still have eyelids to blink.

I always pictured protective covers as resembling sunglass lenses that fit over the eye sockets - mainly because the text mentions that they can be used to protect normal eyes, too. So I see them as fully compatible with nicitating membranes, unlike contact lenses. Still, nicitating membranes are rarely worth getting with cybereyes.

Don't know what the SR4 rules say to that, but the SR3 rules were pretty strict regarding that stuff.
All Bio-Eye-Stuff is incompatible with all Cyber-Eye-Stuff.

Best eyes one could have was Troll or Dwarf eyes with the Edge Natural Low-Light, then either add in Nictating Membranes for natural Flare-Compensation or Add in Light-System, Cyber-Flare-Comp and Image Magnification. And if you go the Cyber-Route, you should, of course, get retractable protective covers.

thanks for all the replies.

i'll probably back here in the next few days while i re-orient myself to SR again.

Heh, say good bye to most of your free time from now on ^^
Once you start digging through those boards, you can go for hours.
Almost as bad as wikipedia with marvel or DC Characters.
or www.tvtropes.org in general ^^

Its true, I spend hours and hours on these forums just hitting F5 waiting for new posts, or reading the archives for amusing things to pull on one of my GMs during a game.

(And noes! You have spoken about "That Website"! My spare time is once more doomed!)

Because they're in Neuromancer.



Now that's an interesting idea...it makes sense to grant capacity to Protective Covers, but i guess they excluded that option for some balance reasons or something like that.





If you get full limb, torso and probably head replacement, you can't get Muscle Replacement (or its -much better- bioware equivalent) anymore because honestly, where do you want to put those muscles?
You don't have any musculature worth speaking of anymore, as you don't have arms or legs and the outside of your torso, down to your ribcage, has been removed and replaced for chrome and myomeric fabrics and ceramics and whatnot.
However, if you have full cyber replacement, you can go up to your natural maximum with Customized Cyberlimbs anyway (and then, improve your limbs further to augmented maximum), so why bother?



The Cat Eyes and Troll Eyes bioware is still incompatible with anything else going into your eye.
Which makes both implants kinda...overpriced and inefficient.
Especially as SR4 doesn't make a difference between natural and artificial forms of improved vision anymore, so cybereyes with IR are as good as the normal eyes of a dwarf or troll.

One advantage that they have over their cyber counterparts to make up for that incompatibility is the fact that unless you've got more bioware than cyber, you're only paying half the essence cost for them. And when you compare the prices of off-the-rack Cat's/Troll's Eyes to the deltaware versions of their cyber equivalents you'd need if you wanted the same essence cost, it turns out that it actually is cheaper to do it in meat than metal, plus you can do it at chargen.

While it might seem silly to be worrying about spending 0.05 essence instead of 0.1, for Awakened/Emerged characters who are trying to optimize the amount of implants they can get while paying a whole number essence cost, it can make a difference.

For both of these, I actually refer you back to 1st Ed. The covers date from back then, and it was speciffic that you were affected by the iritants. After all, they aren't affecting the EYEBALL istelf, but the soft tissues and ducts and so forth around the eye. The reason they got left in, IMHO was either laziness or more likely as a nod to the "Pink Mohawk" crowd who liked the more "chrome" approach of the old editions where it was fairly standard for a true Sammy to have these puppies installed and mirrored, permanent like.

Hope that helps!

Only Cat eyes, actually.

Troll Eyes aren't incompatible with retinal modifications.

This all brings to mind a question, at least for me.

If you have a datajack, why not be able to install the features in an external device and DNI + sim module them through say image or sound link?

ie. a little box that skinlinks or wirelessly links to your datajack that has 16 cap of eye stuff and 12 or 16 of ear stuff?

Obviously, things like freakin laser beams shooting from the freakin eyes wouldn't work, and balance augmenter stuff that has to be internal wouldn't work either.

But what about a micro camera and micro microphone that picks up and is processed through the 'box'? could use the glasses or contacts cap for just holding the camera type sensors and the earpieces to hold the mic type sensors.
That way spatial integrity is maintained for the DNI to convert for the pseudo-link combination.

Heck, it wouldn't even be digital imaging at that point, since it would be internal and could be mage-worthy all for .1 essence

But he could not cast through it.And you can have that much easier.
Everything comes with wireless capability. Built in Comlink and presto.

Why could he not cast through it?

If he's not seeing through a digital screen, why would it be a problem?

In this example, the SIM module would be transferring the information directly to the brain, so there's no digital barrier. It would all be optical.

Edit: Double-Posted

No it would not. As soon as there is an DNI somewhere, it is NOT optical in nature anymore.
Only Cyber-Eyes work, because you paid essence for it. Everything else does not work.

Ok, I get the essense bit, I'm not trying to argue rules. I do realize that the book says cyber-eyes work cuz you paid essence for it.

I'm just thinking logically here.

adding a DNI device such as a datajack (costs essence), then adding a sim module and way to transfer information (commlink + sim module), then a box that does all the signal interpretation (vision mag, low light, sound enhancement, etc.) and transfers it to your brain via the DNI. All this without an image link, relying on the DNI to make your brain comprehend it all.

Now, nothing in this package would change your vision to where you see a digital image. It would be pure, basic eyes, homegrown, eyes that you are born with. Your brain would just have extra sensory options utilizing that external device to translate information.

So how would you (logically) be seeing that distant target via a digital image? There's no digital overlay to change your optics at all. Everything you see would be optical.

Why then logically, would you not be able to cast via the enhanced senses granted directly into your brain?

Like I said, I'm not trying to circumvent all-gods-have-spoken BBB dogmatic cannon. I realize what the rules say. I'm simply using a logical thought direction and wondering why logically, it wouldn't work.

The reason he can't cast through the image is because it would Break The Game™. I mean, Ultrasound and RADAR vision are paid for with Essence and you still can't cast through them. Again, that would Break The Game™. Now you don't want to do that now would you? [/sarcasm*]


* == the sarcasm is NOT directed to you Regiment, it's at Catalyst.