We have just started playing SR4 but have been playing Shadowrun since the first edition. We can't find a couple of the rules we are looking for.

1) What is the time necessary for a heal spell to become permanent. The rules state extra successes may be used to reduce time, but does not state what that time is.

2) Piloting vs. rigging vs. no rig but VR'd in (like a technomancer). The rules state that a pilot gets his initiative, rolls reaction and get 1 extra dice if subscribed to his AR. Does this include wired reflexes or such? Rigging is full jumped in and gets 2 extra dice for matrix tests and 2 extra dice for VCR. Correct? Technomancers can use remote control in full VR which is listed as a matrix action (plus 2 dice). So he would get his full VR initiative remote controlling and use command and skills. Does he also get the 2 dice for matrix perception? It says you can create a smartlink as a non rated complex form. Can you do the same with a VCR?

Any help would be appreciated.

1) Exactly the same as any other Permanent spell, which I believe is 10 turns. You should double check that, though, as I don't have access to any of my books.

The big argument is between the people who say you have to maintain concentration (ie, can't do anything else while sustaining it since you have to "lay on hands" for the entire duration, which is absurd) and those who say that once the spell is cast, you just have to deal with the sustaining penalty until it becomes permanent (the correct answer).

2) Wired Reflexes and similar boosts apply when physically driving the vehicle, even with AR. If you're "jumped in" or piloting by remote control, then they don't apply at all unless the rules for that particular implant or boost specifically states so. Which is usually limited to mental or magical augmentation rather than physical augmentation.

Well, i know the answer the the healing time anyway. It takes a number of combat turns equal to the damage being healed for a Heal spell to take effect. The success's can be used to reduce that time by 1 combat turn per hit

Actually it's 2*Drainvalue of the spell in combat turns.

AFAIK the laying on hands for the whole duration comes from the FAQ, which sometimes contradicts RAW, so whether you use it is up to you. No matter if you have to keep your hands on the patient, not even the FAQ says that you can't do anything else. Any LOS or LOS(A) Spell can be performed, with the -2 from sustaining the heal spell of course, as can talking and everything else that does not require the caster's hands.

SR4A lists the range as Touch and states that the spell only needs to be sustained, not channeled or anything like that. As far as I know range only counts for the initial casting. If you target someone with a spell, hit and sustain it, they can then leave your line of sight with the spell still active, correct? If that's true then "Lay on Hands" falls apart. Touch the target, sustain the spell and use a Health sustaining focus for good measure.

It also makes table sense when you put it up against First Aid, take that from someone who ran a Doc Wagon focused game for three months.

On question two above, a Techno would not get the Matrix perception bonus because even though they are perceiving from the matrix, they are not perceiving things in the matrix if they are using vehicle sensors. Someone else might rule that differently, but that's how I read it. The VR bonus would apply though.

The smartgun complex form only emulates the interpreter software of the smart gun, the hardware that does the heavy lifting is on the gun. The VCR is a device in and of itself, as such I would say a complex form could not emulate it any more than one could emulate a math SPU. Of course they do allow you to emulate a simrig, but seeing as you're already a sim module that makes more sense.

No. That's a piece of hardware, so it cannot be emulated.

So what is the advantage of being jumped in in vehicle when street muscle with a good reaction can out-pilot a jumped in rigger as the base response for a vehicle is so low. It can be jacked up to twice it's original with time and money but that still doesn't compare. Is it the 2 or 4 dice or the reduced threshold? Or is it because you do not need to be physically connected?

Driving with AR only gives you a little better info. Driving with VR means you get to use your matrix reaction and initiative instead of meat. If you have Move-by-Wire 3 already it doesn't make much sense, but if you're a techno or a mage or someone without the ware it's a huge boost at nearly no cost.

Yes.

Think about it. It can be any car anywhere. And it doesn't even have to be yours. Handy? Ramming targets with other peoples vehicles is always better.

Thanks, that really helps. It says I can upgrade the current response of a vehicle or drone to +2. Can I completely rip out the module and replace it, or is this a base limit on the device that cannot be circumvented? Also, the Autosoft programs say that they are dice added to the "Pilot" (I noticed they used the proper noun meaning the program). Can these be used to augment a rigger pool?

It cannot be circumvented. However, there's superior gear available, that doesn't have that limit. I don't recall what it's called, though.

Nope, autosofts are for Pilot/agent use only.

Can a sprite act like an agent in a drone? Can he pilot and inhabit in full VR?

Not explicitly by RAW, but it may be RAI and seems reasonable. Sprites can not jump into drones the way riggers do, but allowing them to suppress and replace a drone's Pilot program serves a similar purpose (and makes the Machine sprite's autosofts not completely useless). They can also use the Command CF to command drones remotely, just like a rigger.

I am fairly sure that with a box of cookies a fair few GMs would allow a Sprite to "ride" about in a Drone, basically using its Rating/Autosofts to compliment the Drones Pilot/Autosofts. It means that Machine Sprites are actually quite useful, plus thematically its awesome

My table got around this by introducing a new Optional Power for Machine Sprites that basically reads the same as the AI Quality: Piloting Origin
The AI’s origin is (or is related to) that of a drone or vehicle
pilot program. With the 5 BP version of this quality, the character
with this quality can interpret rigger signals and may “jump into�
rigged vehicles as would a rigger. The 10 BP version of this quality
is the same, except that the AI may load and directly use all autosoft
programs, using the program rating in place of its own skill.

We use the level two one. We find it works quite well, and is not too overpowering (Untill you get into Rating 10+ Sprites.)

I ruled that a Machine Sprite in a Drone completely suppresses the Drone's existing Pilot program and takes over. However a Sprite, being a Resonance being, cannot use the Drone's Autosofts, but it can use those CF's that it possesses that mimic the function of Autosofts.

laereth, keep something in mind: when a Rigger Jumps In to a vehicle, s/he uses the Response of their commlink, not the Drone's. If your Commlink has a Response of 5 and you Jump In to a Drone that has a built-in Response of 3, you use Response 5 for calculating Initiative and such.

That's how I see it too. I don't think a sprite should be able to commandeer the Pilot's autosofts for its own use, but it can use its own equivalents instead.

With this interpretation, the problem is that machine sprites are either a lot weaker (force 1-6) than a drone with a lot of autosofts or totally overpowered (force 9+).

Well, letting the sprite co-opt the Pilot's autosofts for its own use (as suggested by CodeBreaker) means that a Machine sprite of any rating is overpowered in that case. Not letting sprites replace Pilots means that Machine sprites in general are kinda crappy. Which interpretation do you favour?

Besides, aren't rating 9 sprites/spirits supposed to be powerful?

Besides the pure dicepool comparison, the sprite has another weakness. Unless it is registered any usage of a drone is considered a remote task and as such any other tasks are lost and registering is even more difficult than compiling. Let's compare a tricked out drone (Pilot 6 and all Autosofts at 4) to one commandeered by a sprite.
The drone gets 10 dice in any action that is covered by the autosofts. Useful but not outstanding.
Rating 1-2 Sprites get a dicepool of 1-2 on all actions. We're lucky the machinesprite gets stability for free.
Rating 3-5 get a pilot of 3-5 and 3-5 in ONE autosoft. So it's 3-5 for most action and 6-10 in one.still worse than the mundane version
Rating 6-8 get a pilot of 6-8 and 6-8 in TWO autosofts. So it's 6-8 for most actions and 12-16 in two.
Granted 12-16 in driving and shooting is pretty impressive, but the mundane rigger does not have to soak up to 16P damage just to get the drone working.
Rating 9+ Those that can regularly compile sprites like these probably don't mid anyway if the drone rolls 9 or 13 dice for those tests not covered by the 3+ CFs

Do Matrix tests use the normal defaulting rules? If so substract one from all pools without a CF.
Yes, but they are also nigh unsummonable. And even then the Sprite only has access to a maximum of three autosofts. With those programs you can barely cover the basics (driving, shooting and perceiving). No fancy stuff like hiding and electronic (counter)countermeasures.

Now what happens if a mage has a spirit possess a drone? How does that compare in powerlevel.

No, you can't default in the Matrix. You need a program/CF for everything.


But you're the one who brought up rating 9+ sprites as "totally overpowered." I'm asking how they're unreasonably powerful for rating 9, and now you seem to be saying they're not. What's the point you're trying to make about high-rating Machine sprites and autosofts?

And yeah, you need to register sprites to use remote tasks (like drone piloting) effectively, but registering is free as long as you have some downtime and medical assistance, so why not?

EDIT: And by the way, Machine sprites have Computer, Electronic Warfare and Hardware as skills so they can still do things like jamming without having a specific autosoft for it.

Would that mean that a sprite without the maveuver CF couldn't even drive a drone?


What I'm trying to say is that while High Rating sprites do get high dicepools for a couple of tests, they generally cannot commandeer a drone too well because several autosofts are missing. According to the BBB they should be able to do that:


Woops forgot that. I confused it with binding of spirits which costs money. Is there a rule what happens if the technomancer loses consciousness during the compiling or registering?

My understanding is that a task isn't considered "remote" as long as the TM is present in the Node that contains the Sprite. So, as long as the TM maintains a Subscription to the Drone the Sprite is controlling, then they wouldn't be considered Remote Services.

TM's generally kick this living crap out of a regular Matrix user, so I'm okay with a Machine Sprite not being Utterly Awesome All the Time in a drone. There is precedent for TM's and other Resonance beings not being able to utilize the programs of a regular Matrix user, but there is no precedent for a Resonance entity being able to use and directly enhance a standard program. That would be like letting a TM run programs on a standard Commlink and then Thread them up. This might actually be one area where a traditional Matrix user has an advantage over a TM, those are precious few and far between so I'm inclined to keep it.

Pretty much.


So, not "totally overpowered." I agree with this; they seem fairly balanced with their inherent limitations.


The sprite goes free. They're usually less vengeful and more mischievous than uncontrolled spirits loosed in the same manner.

Ooh, good catch. So you can park a sprite in a drone and either maintain a subscription or count it as a remote service - your choice.

This is a good candidate for a FAQ answer, IMO. The ruling really depends on what is considered the "attribute" in the test. Other Matrix Tests are Program + Skill (eg. Exploit + Hacking), in these cases the program has replaced the Attribute. When someone defaults they do so to Attribute - 1, so that equates to Program - 1, with the test not being possible with no program (no Attribute). Now, when a Drone wants to go somewhere they roll Pilot + Maneuver, the crucial question in this calculation is: Which one is the "Attribute?" If Pilot is the Attribute then the Drone or Sprite could default to Pilot (Rating) - 1. If the Autosoft is considered the "Attribute" then the test automatically fails if the relevant Autosoft is not present.

Looking at it pseudo-logically, it makes sense that "Pilot" would be the Attribute since it is the "general purpose" inherent "smarts" of the drone, with the Autosoft acting like a "Skill." However, that is completely contrary to all other Matrix test where the "Program" (which an Autosoft is considered to be) takes the place of the Attribute.

I don't know, one way makes more sense "logically" but the other is much more consistent with the rules. Tough call.

Well, under the optional rule for using attributes in Matrix tests, it says to consider a drone's Pilot rating as the attribute and reaffirms that every Matrix action needs a program. So it looks like defaulting on Matrix tests just isn't allowed. From SR4A's section on Matrix actions, we also have:
No defaulting.

I'm assuming then it is the response of the living persona that is used (resonance) then?

Our GM (who is also new to the rules) is watching the post and I guess he will make a ruling as it seems that the rulebook isn't clear on this. I'll let you know what he decides just for the sake of interest...

My bad. It's intuition (+1 in full VR).

Are you sure about this? AFAIK it only isn't a remote task if the Technomancer is present in the same node. At least in the BBB it says nothing about a network of nodes being considered the same node. Is there some clarification in Unwired?

If the thechomancer actually has to stay in the drone's node he wouldn't need a sprite anyway and could jump into the drone possibly using the sprite for its diagnose power.

You have an icon present in every node on your subscription list. This is explicitly pointed out as a vulnerability - leaving yourself open to attack in nodes you're not currently paying attention to - but if you have an icon in a node, anything your sprite does in that node is local to you.

I don't remember reading it, but I do remember seeing that a sprite in the same node as you is not remote and that Technomancers can be subscribed to several nodes and be cognizant of what is occuring in that node. While it seems like a blatant over manipulation of the rules, it sounds about right. If you consider, a drone that drops out of your signal range in a remote location is no longer subscribed to, it becomes remote. If you do not state you are using a remote service, the GM may decide it loses direction at that point and leaves. As sprites are somewhat expendable as you only need a complex action to summon them, then I would call it a remote service to be safe in areas with out reliable matrix access or where there is a chance an ECM will kick you out. So by default, myself as a technomancer would probably make it a remote service.

Its a combination of a couple of terms in SR4A but it makes sense to me.

Ok, this part is not in dispute, the technomancer must be "in" the Node. When you access a Node you perform a Log On operation:

Every Node you are Subscribed to contains your persona/icon. That is why you can be attacked in any Node you have a Subscription to. So, if your icon is there (and you are vulnerable to attack) I would say you are "in" the node. Thus a TM can bring a Sprite there and it is not a Remote Task. The downside is that you need to maintain that subscription.


Sure, but if the TM wants to be free to do other things then the Sprite becomes useful. Say the TM's team has Security bearing down on them and the TM needs to crack the Secret Project Node to get the data they've been sent to steal. The TM hacks into a nearby Security Drone equipped with an LMG, Logging On and thus Subscribing to the drone. He whips up a Machine Sprite (or calls one previously Compiled) and tells it to control the drone, laying down suppressive fire to keep the Security team at bay. Keeping the drone's Subscription open, the TM can see the results of what the Sprite is doing and possibly tell it to redirect fire if some of the Security team tries to sneak around or something. Meanwhile, the TM can continue hacking the Secret Project Node in order to get the files. Could the TM have just given a Command to the drone without the Sprite? Sure. But a Rating 5 Sprite with an Automatics Autosoft CF is probably rolling more dice (10) than the Drone would.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=27469

Have a looksie at Question 4. Questions been asked before, and it got the same responses as here. Also has some other handy things.
Also it is probably better to use Registered Sprites when you are controlling Drones with them. That means that they can go off on their own whenever they want. You dont even need to be in Signal Range to command them, you can just use your Resonance Link to it.

And as for a TM VCR equivalent...


This is true. However, there's an echo in Unwired called Immersion. It gives a +1 bonus to all tasks while jumped in and can be taken twice. So you can get your VCR equivalent after submerging.

Yeah I noticed that too. My particular role in this game is a newly emerged TM sinner who has been on an overseas project. He comes back to a lot of suspicion about what he can do from the other wage slaves. They window seat him again and end up sending him out as a rigger (on a "no-risk" mission) to get him out of the office. That is his first foray into the Shadows as his security is bought muscle. As he is new to all of this, I am considering moving towards a Dronomancer and Immersion will be my first echos if that is the case.

Is it me or are these rules scattered everywhere.

I'm thinking of say a dragonfly, where I have 1 slot for mods? I would like to improve the sensor rating. I find the improve sensor array package. 1 slot so I can do it. It tells me to look at page 105 in Arsenal. It tells me to go to page 325 in SR4 for Sensor Packages ( I have 20th Anniversary so I find it on P. 334) and then p. 59 and 325-326 for individual sensor explanations. Everything seems everywhere.

So if I upgrade the sensor array on a minidrone (upgrading capacity from a 3 to a 5) and decide on sensor enhancements I want. I'm thinking I want a camera. There is a limit on a micro camera of 1 for capacity. For a regular camera it is based on rating. Is it a micro camera or regular? It does not say anywhere. The only reference to microelectronics I have found is on microdrones you are supposed to treat the body as 2 for determining cost because they are so small.