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SirFozzie
I was re-reading the book tonight, and it struck me how much they were hammering home the point that Brackhaven's "this close" to pulling a Saito in Seattle,and that odds are good that if Brackhaven is not somehow stopped, that we're going to be seeing "The Night Of Rage" part 2. I kinda hope not, but I can understand how it would make for one HELL of a series of shadowruns.

To me, there's enough reasons for runners to do their things, that we don't need SR's version of the KKK becoming prominent. (it's just my opinion)

Do you think that A) the storyline will head towards this, and B) would it be something that you explore/use in your game?
Bugfoxmaster
Now personally, I'd really find that annoying - Shadowrun should be an evolving, changing world - not necessarily changing for the better, things like Saito, the Mob War, the Corporate Shuffle, all of System Failure etc. being an example - but an evolving world. With SURGE mutants and so on running around, the Tir democratizing, and Seattle being the hub of even more stuff in general, I'd like to see them avoiding a rehash of old plot events. Maybe an attempt by Brackhaven to overthrow the Seattle government, or attack the meta-humans, or something like that might work. But a second Night of Rage really would just be sort of a 'why is this even happening' thing. Last time it happened, the Corporate Council guys assassinated the governor, slammed down the brakes on the violence, disappeared or arrested most of the people responsible, and eventually killed off the masterminds - the heads of Alamos 20,000 (as of System Failure). you might be seeing things in the book that aren't truly there. Which book are you talking about, actually?
Another thing is that as of present, in 2072, Knight Errant is the law enforcement in Seattle - they're less corrupt and bribe-able than the Star, and much more violent and likely to slam down on any shit Brackhaven might pull - after all, they were brought in on a promise to cur that sort of criminal violence and such. They'd lose the contract again if they screwed up that bad...
On the other hand, this sort of shit seems exactly the thing my GM might pull, given a chance, worrying me heavily - I would avoid this if I was running a game, personally. You, or another GM might use this, if you choose to - you don't even actually need an out-and-out STATEMENT in the books - if you'd like to have a second night of rage, or a coup in Seattle, or whatever, go ahead - it's your game. Far be it from me to suggest that you have any limitations on how you run your world.

Edit: I looked back to get more information - Out of the original five heads of A20K, at least 3, perhaps as many as all five are dead. The one confirmed to still be around, unless the System Failure shake-ups did him in is the Doktor... Alamos itself was linked to the New Revolution coup in 2064, which caused some havoc, and in the aftermath, the UCAS government, military, and special forces hunted down and slaughtered/arrested wholesale the Alamos organization, virtually annihilating it, killing most of its leadership (remains to be seen whether the Doktor got caught up in this). It's not been heard of since then, though that might be due to lack of a chance to be mentioned...
The Jake
I wasn't aware Seattle 2072 was released yet...

I'll just add I haven't slept in 2 days but how can we comment on unreleased material? In an attemp to answer your question I sincerely hope not. We've already had the Awakening 2.0 (SURGE - YotC) and 3.0 (Technomancers - Emergence) and Crash 2.0. There is only so many times history can repeat itself before it sounds like you're rehashing the same old material.

- J.
Bugfoxmaster
He may be reading New Seattle, System Failure, Runner Havens, or something like that. He's 're-reading' the book, which gives me hope that he's reading old material, and that Seattle 2072 will give us something better than yet another old retread.
Actually... your post reminds me that they're assholes who keep repeating the same shitty history over and over again anyhow on us... Crash twice, Awakening THRICE... What next, the NAN or UCAS or whatever balkanize yet again?
Hopefully, we're wrong. A second Night of Rage might lead me to start throwing things. Hard.
CodeBreaker
Or he got it at GenCon.
SirFozzie
Correct... got it at GenCon.

Just to show one of many points where it's mentioned,

p37-38, where it's mentioned that Brackhaven's policies and anti-metahuman views have sparked some protests, which Knight Errant put down, and Brackhaven's spin machine has seized upon it that metahuman=poor, violent and dangerous

Or another section, where it's mentioned that BRackhaven isn't pleased that the Ork Underground is going legit, and is just itching for a reason to tax them out of existence or to fabricate a reason for a raid..

Full IC quote:
QUOTE
"Brackhaven has already said the "Underground question" is due for some "serious consideration" from his administration, and that likely means legal hassels and restrictions imposed on the ork community intended to strangle it, or at least curtail its expansion and development. Of course, that will lead to protests by angry metahumans, right? Perfect pretext for the governor to declare the Underground a "haven for terrorists" and send in the Guard to start checking SINs and root out those dangerous elements. Don't think it'll happen? Just watch


This is just two examples, if I could stay awake much longer, I could find probably 5-10 more things.. they weren't exactly subtle with it.
Bugfoxmaster
Gahh...
Did all their fluff-writing staff FREAKING DIE in a carr accident or something? EVERYTHING THEY DO THESE DAYS IS JUST A REPEAT OF THE SHIT THEY DID BEFORE!!!
Damn, this is stupid. Well, with any luck, perhaps they'll wise up and avoid the retread this time? For once? For pity's sake?
Oh god, we're doomed...
I'm so telling my GM to call a discontinuity and ignore the stupid crap...
Ancient History
We have no staff. There are only freelancers.
Malachi
QUOTE (Bugfoxmaster @ Aug 20 2009, 12:27 AM) *
Edit: I looked back to get more information - Out of the original five heads of A20K, at least 3, perhaps as many as all five are dead. The one confirmed to still be around, unless the System Failure shake-ups did him in is the Doktor... Alamos itself was linked to the New Revolution coup in 2064, which caused some havoc, and in the aftermath, the UCAS government, military, and special forces hunted down and slaughtered/arrested wholesale the Alamos organization, virtually annihilating it, killing most of its leadership (remains to be seen whether the Doktor got caught up in this). It's not been heard of since then, though that might be due to lack of a chance to be mentioned...

Where are you getting this from?
JTNLANGE
I don't see this as a Night of Rage 2.0. That was done by out of control racists with no government backing. This would be done with the explicit consent of an elected official. Also the first night of rage was part of a larger country wide issue while this would be isolated in Seattle as far as I could see. I for one would be interested to see where this would lead. The whole General Colloton being Prez and if she was in cahoots with the New Revolution this could get interesting. COuld we be seeing the city of Seattle braking off and becoming some kind of Free CIty?


Trevor
Bugfoxmaster
If I'm not mistaken (which I might be), didn't the governor have the metroplex guard and Lone Star sit around and do nothing when the stuff went down the last time (I mean the first Night of Rage)?
I'd find Seattle breaking off kind of weird, since it's UCAS's only port on the Atlantic, giving it more storyline value than just being used for a Night of Rage again...
Additionally, I still don't get the general trend towards having every event repeat itself constantly - there're so many other things that the writers (I guess freelancers?) could do with the world (i dunno what - I'm no good at writing plots), but whatever... Who knows, they might make it turn out different this time (Actually, when I think about ti, the last time was before 1st Edition, even, so this time, the PC's might be able to get involved...)
I got the information on Alamos 20K's leadership problems from Threats 2 and System Failure, aminly, though the original leadership information is in Threats.
Adam
QUOTE (Bugfoxmaster @ Aug 20 2009, 10:53 AM) *
Gahh...
Did all their fluff-writing staff FREAKING DIE in a carr accident or something? EVERYTHING THEY DO THESE DAYS IS JUST A REPEAT OF THE SHIT THEY DID BEFORE!!!

Bigfoxmaster, I think you'll see that there's a lot more than retreads, plot-wise, when you read Seattle 2072 -- heck, there's an entire chapter devoted to "future" plots, so GMs can see where we might go with Seattle and sync up their campaigns.

And at the same time, please remember that Seattle 2072 is intended to be consumed by players entirely new to Shadowrun as well as old hands, so there has to be some level of "core" material in it. Yup, it rehashes stuff about the districts [while updating them, of course], but that was a necessary component to my goal for the book: the only Seattle book someone needs at the table.
otakusensei
QUOTE (Bugfoxmaster @ Aug 20 2009, 10:53 AM) *
Gahh...
Did all their fluff-writing staff FREAKING DIE in a carr accident or something? EVERYTHING THEY DO THESE DAYS IS JUST A REPEAT OF THE SHIT THEY DID BEFORE!!!
Damn, this is stupid. Well, with any luck, perhaps they'll wise up and avoid the retread this time? For once? For pity's sake?
Oh god, we're doomed...
I'm so telling my GM to call a discontinuity and ignore the stupid crap...


To the best of my knowledge, the type of thing they are talking about doing in Seattle has not yet happened in the continuity of the playable years. So while certain events may have similarities to previous events in other locations, both in Shadowrun and IRL, they will be new and run a course different from the others.

If you want to bitch, feel free. Keep in mind however that you're doing it in a public enthusiast forum frequented by your peers and the same folks that write the stuff you are bitching about. As such, you may want to temper your criticism to be something a bit more constructive and less like word vomit.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Adam @ Aug 20 2009, 11:06 AM) *
Bigfoxmaster, I think you'll see that there's a lot more than retreads, plot-wise, when you read Seattle 2072 -- heck, there's an entire chapter devoted to "future" plots, so GMs can see where we might go with Seattle and sync up their campaigns.

And at the same time, please remember that Seattle 2072 is intended to be consumed by players entirely new to Shadowrun as well as old hands, so there has to be some level of "core" material in it. Yup, it rehashes stuff about the districts [while updating them, of course], but that was a necessary component to my goal for the book: the only Seattle book someone needs at the table.


Honestly, my group has been waiting for a Seattle Source book, given that normally the main book establishes the "normal" setting for the game, which in the past was Seattle. So we were disappointed when not only was no place included in SR4, but the web missions were all set in Denver. So we were doing what we could to update the Sea-Tac area as best we could.
Kerrang
I have no problem with a Night of Rage 2.0 happening, though from what I can see from the Sea2072 quotes, people seem to be reading a bit too much into them. It would likely definitely go down differently this time around, but there is a reason why Santayana said "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it". Brackhaven does not appear to have learned from history.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Adam @ Aug 20 2009, 11:06 AM) *
Bigfoxmaster, I think you'll see that there's a lot more than retreads, plot-wise, when you read Seattle 2072 -- heck, there's an entire chapter devoted to "future" plots, so GMs can see where we might go with Seattle and sync up their campaigns.

And at the same time, please remember that Seattle 2072 is intended to be consumed by players entirely new to Shadowrun as well as old hands, so there has to be some level of "core" material in it. Yup, it rehashes stuff about the districts [while updating them, of course], but that was a necessary component to my goal for the book: the only Seattle book someone needs at the table.


You mean (once the survivors return from Lagos) that I won't have to lug runner havens and 2 seattle sourcebooks to my game? W00t!

Also-um did I catch that right? KE took the contract from LS? And people are complaining there is no change? SHeesh........ ohplease.gif
Stormdrake
Yes Knight Errant is running Law Enforcement in Seattle.
Bugfoxmaster
QUOTE (otakusensei @ Aug 20 2009, 08:08 AM) *
To the best of my knowledge, the type of thing they are talking about doing in Seattle has not yet happened in the continuity of the playable years. So while certain events may have similarities to previous events in other locations, both in Shadowrun and IRL, they will be new and run a course different from the others.

If you want to bitch, feel free. Keep in mind however that you're doing it in a public enthusiast forum frequented by your peers and the same folks that write the stuff you are bitching about. As such, you may want to temper your criticism to be something a bit more constructive and less like word vomit.


Whoa, Whoa! I'm not just bitching around, I swear. Jeez...
Ok. First off, I've not READ Seattle 2072 - in fact, I dind't know it was out, and if it is, I'll get it. was only replying to the OP's commnts that the Night of Rage might happen again, which sort of ticked me off.
I was NOT saying that the writers, the enthusiasts, etc. WERE supid, or that they SHOULD die in a car cras - I was confused as to why it was supposedly happening again.

From Kerrang's post: "I have no problem with a Night of Rage 2.0 happening, though from what I can see from the Sea2072 quotes, people seem to be reading a bit too much into them. It would likely definitely go down differently this time around, but there is a reason why Santayana said "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it". Brackhaven does not appear to have learned from history."

I have no problem with THIS happening- I'd only have a problem with a repeat of the previous events, with no regard to the changes over the (what, forty years?) course of fluff-history.

I'm not stating the book (Seattle 2072) sucks - I've never seen it or anything from it BESIDES the OP's post comments. I'm not saying the writers are crazy - well, if they DID repeat the Night of Rage again, they'd be, but they apparently HAVEN'T, so they AREN'T.

From Adam's post: "Bigfoxmaster, I think you'll see that there's a lot more than retreads, plot-wise, when you read Seattle 2072 -- heck, there's an entire chapter devoted to "future" plots, so GMs can see where we might go with Seattle and sync up their campaigns.

And at the same time, please remember that Seattle 2072 is intended to be consumed by players entirely new to Shadowrun as well as old hands, so there has to be some level of "core" material in it. Yup, it rehashes stuff about the districts [while updating them, of course], but that was a necessary component to my goal for the book: the only Seattle book someone needs at the table."

The first part sounds very good - I like that there's stuff coming up, big changes in the world. I've actually even got no problem if one of said possible future plots involves Brackhaven trying another Night of Rage, so long as there's significant differences in the plot of how it goes down.

The second part I understand - I know that there's new players around who don't know the history, and I have said nothing against (and in fact fully support) the TELLING of history, for peoples' understanding, and the explanation of the districts so people understand them. Making it a comprehensive and useful book is awesome, and I applaud it.

I'm ONLY arguing against a REPEAT of history, a re-do, another copy, a XEROX, if anyone remembers what those were. My ENTIRETY of knowledge of Seattle 2072, as I said, is from the OP post, and I could, and technically still can only comment on the tiny hint of information I got there - namely that he thought the Night of Rage was going down again, and I didn't like the sound of that.

If there has been any insult or misunderstanding, I apologize - I understand that the writers are working hard to churn this stuff out for us to play with. Cheers.
otakusensei
No problem, Bugfoxmaster. I was just trying to point out that here on DS a few heated words can spark a massive flame war.

You're right to think that a carbon copy repeat of previous material would be a disservice to the fan base, but I see nothing in Catalyst's current material to make me think that they are anything less than talented and devoted stewards of the setting.
Malachi
Who were the writers on Seattle 2072?
Malachi
QUOTE (Bugfoxmaster @ Aug 20 2009, 09:58 AM) *
I got the information on Alamos 20K's leadership problems from Threats 2 and System Failure, aminly, though the original leadership information is in Threats.

Yeah, I took a quick look back in System Failure. I couldn't find anything linking in Alamos 20k to the New Revolution plot.
Adam
QUOTE (Malachi @ Aug 20 2009, 02:07 PM) *
Who were the writers on Seattle 2072?

Steve Kenson wrote it based on an outline by Peter Taylor and myself, and I chipped in a few last minute words. A large number of people contributed fiction vignettes: Bill Aguiar, Jason Andrew, Randall Bills, Rob Boyle, Jennifer Brozek, Adam Bruno Bobby Derie, John Dunn, Mark Dynna, Mark Edwards, Jennifer Harding, Jason Hardy, John Helfers, Kris Katzen, Adam Jury
otakusensei
While we have you, Adam. When can we expect to be able to pre-order Seattle 2072?
Adam
We don't announce that.
Malachi
QUOTE (Adam @ Aug 20 2009, 12:31 PM) *
Steve Kenson wrote it based on an outline by Peter Taylor and myself...

Steve Kenson? Right on! How did you guys pull him out of SR retirement?
Bugfoxmaster
Senator Braddock was specifically outed as one of the Alamos 20K leaders, AND as the leader of the New Revolution movement. (not ironically, the one known as 'the Senator' in the original Theats expose). In System Failure, or in the rough whereabouts, he was killed off (because of that whole New Revolution thing...)
And the other guys, the Nazi and the Troll, were killed off one after the other by a newcomer, the Doktor. That's Threats 2.
I'm not sure about the other two, but the UCAS retaliation might or might not ahve gottent them. I dunno.
Then again, I might be wrong. I'm just saying what I saw.
Malachi
QUOTE (Bugfoxmaster @ Aug 20 2009, 01:44 PM) *
Senator Braddock was specifically outed as one of the Alamos 20K leaders, AND as the leader of the New Revolution movement. (not ironically, the one known as 'the Senator' in the original Theats expose). In System Failure, or in the rough whereabouts, he was killed off (because of that whole New Revolution thing...)
And the other guys, the Nazi and the Troll, were killed off one after the other by a newcomer, the Doktor. That's Threats 2.
I'm not sure about the other two, but the UCAS retaliation might or might not ahve gottent them. I dunno.
Then again, I might be wrong. I'm just saying what I saw.

Ah, I found it. System Failure page 106
QUOTE
“My fellow Americans, citizens and soldiers of the United
Canadian and American States, I am Major General Angela
Colloton. Early this morning, UCAS military units seized control
of the District of Columbia and other sprawls in an attempt to
overthrow the federal government during the chaos of yesterday’s
events. The insurgents were led by Senator Jonathan S.
Braddock, whom we now know to be a senior member of the
Alamos 20,000 terrorist group.
Their ultimate goal was to seize
power all across North America. They have failed.
“As we speak, loyal American troops have cornered the
remaining rebel forces. Corporate security forces are now fully
cooperating with the UCAS federal government in this matter.
Senator Braddock was killed earlier today when he and his followers
engaged our troops in an attempt to escape. I would also like
to make it clear that, contrary to media reports, our country has not
been invaded by foreign powers, nor are we at a state of war.?


I'm still missing info on the "Doktor" character though. I found reference to Alamos 20k in Threats 2, but that's just further evidence linking the Senator to the New Revolution.
SirFozzie
Ok, in this case, the difference between Night of Rage 1.0 and this one, is that rather than government just idly sitting by and letting Humanis/Alamos20K run the thing, sounds like government's going to take the Saito role and encourage/lead this. Again, it's not something I'd really like to encourage in the game, but I guess that's the way we're going..
Kerenshara
OK, now I NEED to be able to get my hands on a copy of that book soonest, because given her family history, Kerenshara's going to have her hoop involved in anything like a second Night of Rage up to her pretty little eyeballs... and not running WITH the gvernment. Actually ties rather well into the end of the "book" I've been writing and posting.

Anybody picked up a copy at the con want to make a little cash scalping it to me?
Bugfoxmaster
Hmm... It's either in Loose Alliances or Threats 2 - if it's not in T2, try the section on page 33 or something of Loose Alliances. I think the Doktor' there...

Fozzie, apparently it'll turn out differently this time - and since it's an In-Game change, rather than a pre-game history lesson like the last one, it should be interesting. As someone already said, Brackhaven hasn't learned from his mistakes.

And you're free to GM-Fiat things you don't like out of the plot. I've done it before (thouh not in SR)...

Edit: That post was Kerrang's
SirFozzie
Well, I still have a certain quote from 2nd edition's initial fiction running through my head..

"plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"
Bugfoxmaster
Unfortunately, I don't speak French. What?
SirFozzie
"The more things change, the more things stay the same."

(it was the title of the introductory fiction for the 2nd Edition core rules)
CodeBreaker
I think thats the The More thing Chance, the more they stay the same quote right?

(Curses, beaten to it)
Malachi
QUOTE (Bugfoxmaster @ Aug 20 2009, 03:37 PM) *
Hmm... It's either in Loose Alliances or Threats 2 - if it's not in T2, try the section on page 33 or something of Loose Alliances. I think the Doktor' there...

Yup, Loose Alliances pp. 33-34. Thanks, I like to keep up to speed on my metaplot stuff.
Bugfoxmaster
No problem, and good to now I hadn't completely missed the entirety of what was going on and gotten confused. Or delusional. That would be bad...
Jaid
QUOTE (Malachi @ Aug 20 2009, 03:04 PM) *
Steve Kenson? Right on! How did you guys pull him out of SR retirement?

my guess is they had to send in a team to extract him from some other publisher. many lives were lost (most of them poorly trained security guards) and in a remarkable coincidence, some other guy named steve kenson (who is definitely in no way related to the old guy, and certainly was not recently extracted from the same company the other steve kenson used to work for) suddenly became available to write new shadowrun material.

of course, i could be a little off nyahnyah.gif
Adam
Yeah, I think I just sent him a message on AIM and said "Hey Steve, how's your schedule look?" ... but that does sound kinda boring, no? wink.gif
otakusensei
QUOTE (Adam @ Aug 20 2009, 07:13 PM) *
Yeah, I think I just sent him a message on AIM and said "Hey Steve, how's your schedule look?" ... but that does sound kinda boring, no? wink.gif


Play it cool, we know things are really done in the rough and tumble world of roleplaying game design.
Paul
I'm going to wait and judge the book on it's own merits, but Adam can you seriously make that promise(?) (For lack of a better word)? I mean the only book we'll need? Every time "you guys" (Yes, I get it's more than one design team, more than one writer, etc...) have tried this I personally think it's just not happening.

I'd settle for just repeating massive quantities of stuff I already have, and yeah I get they need to appeal to new players too.
Adam
I have no doubt that there will be some players that go "Nope, I want to use this little tidbit from one of the old books."

But I am confident that someone who picks up Seattle 2072 isn't going to read it and go "Man, there is this gaping hole here. There's absolutely nothing about X." -- unless they have vastly different expectations of what a location book for Shadowrun should be.
Paul
Fair enough.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (SirFozzie @ Aug 20 2009, 04:44 PM) *
Well, I still have a certain quote from 2nd edition's initial fiction running through my head..

"plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"


Still my favorite piece of fiction
The Jake
QUOTE (Adam @ Aug 20 2009, 04:06 PM) *
Bigfoxmaster, I think you'll see that there's a lot more than retreads, plot-wise, when you read Seattle 2072 -- heck, there's an entire chapter devoted to "future" plots, so GMs can see where we might go with Seattle and sync up their campaigns.

And at the same time, please remember that Seattle 2072 is intended to be consumed by players entirely new to Shadowrun as well as old hands, so there has to be some level of "core" material in it. Yup, it rehashes stuff about the districts [while updating them, of course], but that was a necessary component to my goal for the book: the only Seattle book someone needs at the table.


I think the concern we share is that there is a growing trend that seems to be repeating major past historical events, not rehashing city material.

- J.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 20 2009, 09:23 PM) *
Still my favorite piece of fiction


Yup! I loved the description of Nameless vs the Adept. That to me showed what someone with wired reflexes can do.
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