In the fiction that's out there I've read (which, admittedly, is not all of it), overcasting spells seems to inflict much more pain on the caster than the rules would actually allow. With first aid and decent Drain pools, a mage may not even take any actual damage from overcasting a few spells every fight. I'm thinking of changing this for my game, and would like some critique on the following house rule:
Whenever you overcast a spell, calculate the Drain normally, then add 1 for every 2 Force that the spell's Force exceeds the caster's Magic or fraction thereof.
With this formula, instead of having a Drain Value of 3P, a Force 8 stunbolt cast by a Magic 5 magician would have a DV of 5P, which almost guarantees they won't be able to keep overcasting all day. Since it doesn't affect lower Force spells, anything lower than the caster's Magic should still be fine, and the sample mage should be able to sling Force 5 stunbolts all day without having to worry at all.
I'd like to try and avoid this thread turning into a debate about whether magic is broken or not, if possible, so please keep that in mind when responding.
Full Version: Changing Overcasting to fit with fluff
Alright, I like your idea (it's nice when things fit with fluff, isn't it?) but here's the issue; spell damage. There are two ways to get spell damage high: high force, and net hits. The current system says that for Direct Combat spells, you should use high force, because drain is manageable but adding net hits will make it lethal. OTOH, Indirect Combat spells should probably be cast with force around the same level as Magic, because their drain is significantly higher, but net hits on the spellcasting test add to damage.
If you made spells have both methods of adding damage being viable (i.e. force 9 stunbolt is drain 3P, but net hits add to damage without adding to drain) you're going to end up with human mages destroying dragons. If you made spells with neither method of adding damage being viable (i.e. net hits add to drain, and so does overcasting) then mages are going to grab a bunch of Health, Illusion and Manipulation spells, and stock up on Pistols (Heavy Pistols) because they'll be outclassed by Predators.
My point; I like your rule, and it should go fine, as long as you allow net hits to add to damage for all spells. Also, if you use this rule, removing the +1 drain code for indirect spells is probably wise (because that exists to keep IC balanced with DC when IC gets net hits drain free, but DC doesn't).
EDIT: I wanted to clarify that when I say "balanced," I'm NOT referring to how/whether magic is balanced against other things. I'm trying to point out what I think will change when you implement the rule, and how to make sure the pros equal the cons, roughly.
If you made spells have both methods of adding damage being viable (i.e. force 9 stunbolt is drain 3P, but net hits add to damage without adding to drain) you're going to end up with human mages destroying dragons. If you made spells with neither method of adding damage being viable (i.e. net hits add to drain, and so does overcasting) then mages are going to grab a bunch of Health, Illusion and Manipulation spells, and stock up on Pistols (Heavy Pistols) because they'll be outclassed by Predators.
My point; I like your rule, and it should go fine, as long as you allow net hits to add to damage for all spells. Also, if you use this rule, removing the +1 drain code for indirect spells is probably wise (because that exists to keep IC balanced with DC when IC gets net hits drain free, but DC doesn't).
EDIT: I wanted to clarify that when I say "balanced," I'm NOT referring to how/whether magic is balanced against other things. I'm trying to point out what I think will change when you implement the rule, and how to make sure the pros equal the cons, roughly.
Well, the "damage hits to Drain" rule is optional, and I'm not using it for my game. I'm also lowering Indirect drain codes by 2 across the board to make them a little more reasonable, since they allow both Armor and Reaction (which is usually higher than Willpower), and since it's a Ranged Defense test, you can throw in a Dodge if you really want to.
So, yes. I am allowing net hits to damage for all spells.
While I'm at it, what's the general opinion on lowering Indirect spell Drain by 2 instead of by 1? I think it makes it a little more fair for them since you gain a Damage Resistance test against you but you have to deal with Armor, and it makes both types of spells useful and easy to cast in different ways.
So, yes. I am allowing net hits to damage for all spells.
While I'm at it, what's the general opinion on lowering Indirect spell Drain by 2 instead of by 1? I think it makes it a little more fair for them since you gain a Damage Resistance test against you but you have to deal with Armor, and it makes both types of spells useful and easy to cast in different ways.
Agreed all around! It also helps mitigate the fact that elemental effects are weirdly overpowered, since most of them are pretty weak.
EDIT: overpowered because they're weak? What planet are you from, dummy? I meant overPRICED, of course.
Don't forget how much easier it is to affect non-living targets with Indirect Combat spells. Having the trade-off be DC (only resisted by willpower, but object thresholds are high) and IC (dodge and armor, but shooting drones is easy) sounds fairish. One point of drain difference either way won't break it, and the overcasting penalty will be good.
New idea; multicasting. I imagine some people will think "if I can't cast my Force 9 Punch, why not 2 Force 5 Punches?" If you think that's good, then it's good. On the other hand, if you think it's not, you could levy overcasting penalties on the TOTAL force of spells cast in a round, which would put a stop to multicasting in a hurry. A more moderate solution would be to count the force for multicasting as highest force + number of spells cast, so a Magic 5 mage would be able to shoot off two Force 4 Punches without overcasting.
EDIT: overpowered because they're weak? What planet are you from, dummy? I meant overPRICED, of course.
Don't forget how much easier it is to affect non-living targets with Indirect Combat spells. Having the trade-off be DC (only resisted by willpower, but object thresholds are high) and IC (dodge and armor, but shooting drones is easy) sounds fairish. One point of drain difference either way won't break it, and the overcasting penalty will be good.
New idea; multicasting. I imagine some people will think "if I can't cast my Force 9 Punch, why not 2 Force 5 Punches?" If you think that's good, then it's good. On the other hand, if you think it's not, you could levy overcasting penalties on the TOTAL force of spells cast in a round, which would put a stop to multicasting in a hurry. A more moderate solution would be to count the force for multicasting as highest force + number of spells cast, so a Magic 5 mage would be able to shoot off two Force 4 Punches without overcasting.
The problem with Overcasting - and Drain in general - comes from having two seperate tracks for damage (S and P). This leads to silly situations like, "I'm almost unconcious with 9 boxes of Stun. A Force 2 spell might take me out of the fight, but if I overcast to Force 12, I can stay concious."
The answer is either to rework the damage track - a worthy effort, but more complicated than I'm willing to go into here - or to rework the Drain of overcast spells. The easy fix is to have overcasting inflict both Stun and Physical Drain equally. This means that a (F/2+1) Drain spell cast at Force 6 with Magic 6 has a Drain of 4S. The same spell at Force 12 has a Drain of 7P and 7S. Successes on the Drain Resistance test apply equally to both sides of the scale (so 3 hits in the example Force 12 spell would reduce the Drain to 4P and 4S).
The answer is either to rework the damage track - a worthy effort, but more complicated than I'm willing to go into here - or to rework the Drain of overcast spells. The easy fix is to have overcasting inflict both Stun and Physical Drain equally. This means that a (F/2+1) Drain spell cast at Force 6 with Magic 6 has a Drain of 4S. The same spell at Force 12 has a Drain of 7P and 7S. Successes on the Drain Resistance test apply equally to both sides of the scale (so 3 hits in the example Force 12 spell would reduce the Drain to 4P and 4S).
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Aug 24 2009, 01:58 AM) 
The easy fix is to have overcasting inflict both Stun and Physical Drain equally. This means that a (F/2+1) Drain spell cast at Force 6 with Magic 6 has a Drain of 4S. The same spell at Force 12 has a Drain of 7P and 7S. Successes on the Drain Resistance test apply equally to both sides of the scale (so 3 hits in the example Force 12 spell would reduce the Drain to 4P and 4S).
That very well might be brilliant. Personally I consider Stun to be fatigue, tiredness, bruising, abrasions, etc, while I consider Physical to be bullet holes, stab wounds, broken or cracked bones, and so on. (I also think the Dresden Files (the books) do an excellent job of portraying both. Both in the course of running around, and using magic.) So having both damage tracks fill up from Overcasting (which is supposed to be dangerous), meaning both a migraine and bleeding out of your nose, might be awsome.
*waits for someone to inevitably show why this is a bad idea*
QUOTE
*waits for someone to inevitably show why this is a bad idea*
Perhaps because it's a rules suggestion from someone that thinks the SR4/SR4A rules are a steaming pile of shit...
Could be, though I was going with the basic "This is Dumpshock" line of reasoning. 
I dunno, I like the original suggestion better. The problem with HappyDaze's suggestion is this:
The original problem with overcasting is builds that can do it, and reliably soak the Drain every time. And both tracks of the Drain get reduced together, so someone who can soak, say, 4P, will also be able to soak 4P and 4S.
The original problem with overcasting is builds that can do it, and reliably soak the Drain every time. And both tracks of the Drain get reduced together, so someone who can soak, say, 4P, will also be able to soak 4P and 4S.
QUOTE
The original problem with overcasting is builds that can do it, and reliably soak the Drain every time. And both tracks of the Drain get reduced together, so someone who can soak, say, 4P, will also be able to soak 4P and 4S.
So just have the hits reduce the P first and then the S after all of the P is gone. Now you have to get 8 hits to reduce 4P + 4S drain to nothing. That's far from easy to do and it makes overcasting/oversummoning very nasty, which some games may need if the feeling is that magic is too strong.
QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 24 2009, 11:09 AM)
I dunno, I like the original suggestion better. The problem with HappyDaze's suggestion is this:
The original problem with overcasting is builds that can do it, and reliably soak the Drain every time. And both tracks of the Drain get reduced together, so someone who can soak, say, 4P, will also be able to soak 4P and 4S.
The original problem with overcasting is builds that can do it, and reliably soak the Drain every time. And both tracks of the Drain get reduced together, so someone who can soak, say, 4P, will also be able to soak 4P and 4S.
You could combine both of those ideas, so overcasting causes more drain making soaking it harder and you avoid the stupid situation where someone overcast becouse she still has a whole physical damagetrack left and the stun track is almost full.
I think best way to limit overcasting is simple rule:
Drain can be healed only through rest. So no First Aid, spells, adept powers or cyber/bio of any kind.
Stun can be ignored with Stim Patches(for a while), but for physical you just have to live with it.
Makes mages think hard when and how to use thos high drain spells.
Makes spellcasting more tactical, you cannot just brute force everything.
My played like this for almost a year before I realized it is not RAW. But for our group it works.
Drain can be healed only through rest. So no First Aid, spells, adept powers or cyber/bio of any kind.
Stun can be ignored with Stim Patches(for a while), but for physical you just have to live with it.
Makes mages think hard when and how to use thos high drain spells.
Makes spellcasting more tactical, you cannot just brute force everything.
My played like this for almost a year before I realized it is not RAW. But for our group it works.
QUOTE (Ard3 @ Aug 24 2009, 01:04 PM)
I think best way to limit overcasting is simple rule:
Drain can be healed only through rest. So no First Aid, spells, adept powers or cyber/bio of any kind.
Stun can be ignored with Stim Patches(for a while), but for physical you just have to live with it.
Makes mages think hard when and how to use thos high drain spells.
Makes spellcasting more tactical, you cannot just brute force everything.
My played like this for almost a year before I realized it is not RAW. But for our group it works.
Drain can be healed only through rest. So no First Aid, spells, adept powers or cyber/bio of any kind.
Stun can be ignored with Stim Patches(for a while), but for physical you just have to live with it.
Makes mages think hard when and how to use thos high drain spells.
Makes spellcasting more tactical, you cannot just brute force everything.
My played like this for almost a year before I realized it is not RAW. But for our group it works.
Now, I could be crazy, since it's been awhile since I cracked open SR2 or SR3, but isn't that how they used to handle drain? Albeit first aid could be used to speed up the healing process?
This doesn't address the ability for certain builds to soak all Drain from casting, but does address the multiple Health track issue.
Instead of 2 tracks at 8+(Body or Willpower/2), we use 8+Body+Willpower for a single track. Stun works up from the bottom, Physical works down from the top. If the two ever meet, then you're unconscious. If you're unconscious and continue taking stun, then it counts as Physical and starts working it's way back down. If physical damage fills your track, then go into overflow boxes as usual.
Instead of 2 tracks at 8+(Body or Willpower/2), we use 8+Body+Willpower for a single track. Stun works up from the bottom, Physical works down from the top. If the two ever meet, then you're unconscious. If you're unconscious and continue taking stun, then it counts as Physical and starts working it's way back down. If physical damage fills your track, then go into overflow boxes as usual.
Meh, just make the Drain from overcasting unsoakable. 
QUOTE
This doesn't address the ability for certain builds to soak all Drain from casting, but does address the multiple Health track issue.
Instead of 2 tracks at 8+(Body or Willpower/2), we use 8+Body+Willpower for a single track. Stun works up from the bottom, Physical works down from the top. If the two ever meet, then you're unconscious. If you're unconscious and continue taking stun, then it counts as Physical and starts working it's way back down. If physical damage fills your track, then go into overflow boxes as usual.
Instead of 2 tracks at 8+(Body or Willpower/2), we use 8+Body+Willpower for a single track. Stun works up from the bottom, Physical works down from the top. If the two ever meet, then you're unconscious. If you're unconscious and continue taking stun, then it counts as Physical and starts working it's way back down. If physical damage fills your track, then go into overflow boxes as usual.
This sounds familiar.
And once again Happydaze proceeds to show that he only knows how to break a system more. And how to bash it relentlessly w/ a sledgehammer.
Doing both tracks like that either A. it all gets soaked same as normal... or B. outright doubles the amount of drain to be soaked. It's simply his way of putting out bad suggestions and putting a sledgehammer to the system.
If you're having trouble w/ overcasting. Just try reducing the drain soak pool by 1 dice per point of overcast. It's a little tweak which works a lot better. It also makes it harder for people who are overcasting to edge the soak pool (less dice to reroll, or to come up 6's to start with).
As far as the OP's original reason, I must strongly disagree. Fluff is rarely a good reason to break rules. Going from force 5 (normal) to force 10 (max overcast) ALREADY QUADRUPLES THE DRAIN!!! Drain goes from 1 to 4. Even if we use 6 & 12 as our two points... we're still looking at 2 to 5 nearly tripling the drain as well as moving it from stun to physical. Adding more raw drain on top of it is going way overboard (especially w/ the changes to direct combat spells and net hits).
And now, what happens when you have say a magic 3 or 4 mage trying to overcast an illusion to get past OR5 drones?! Law of unintended consequences here... Your drain on a spell with a positive drain modifier to start just went to unthinkable (especially when he'll have to edge the spellcasting, or try to cast it a handfull of times to get enough hits).
Doing both tracks like that either A. it all gets soaked same as normal... or B. outright doubles the amount of drain to be soaked. It's simply his way of putting out bad suggestions and putting a sledgehammer to the system.
If you're having trouble w/ overcasting. Just try reducing the drain soak pool by 1 dice per point of overcast. It's a little tweak which works a lot better. It also makes it harder for people who are overcasting to edge the soak pool (less dice to reroll, or to come up 6's to start with).
As far as the OP's original reason, I must strongly disagree. Fluff is rarely a good reason to break rules. Going from force 5 (normal) to force 10 (max overcast) ALREADY QUADRUPLES THE DRAIN!!! Drain goes from 1 to 4. Even if we use 6 & 12 as our two points... we're still looking at 2 to 5 nearly tripling the drain as well as moving it from stun to physical. Adding more raw drain on top of it is going way overboard (especially w/ the changes to direct combat spells and net hits).
And now, what happens when you have say a magic 3 or 4 mage trying to overcast an illusion to get past OR5 drones?! Law of unintended consequences here... Your drain on a spell with a positive drain modifier to start just went to unthinkable (especially when he'll have to edge the spellcasting, or try to cast it a handfull of times to get enough hits).
QUOTE (Falconer @ Aug 25 2009, 08:21 PM)
If you're having trouble w/ overcasting. Just try reducing the drain soak pool by 1 dice per point of overcast. It's a little tweak which works a lot better. It also makes it harder for people who are overcasting to edge the soak pool (less dice to reroll, or to come up 6's to start with).
I actually really like this idea. It's a little easier to integrate than my original one, and hurts a little less. I'm stealing it
.
QUOTE (Andinel @ Aug 24 2009, 01:07 PM)
In the fiction that's out there I've read (which, admittedly, is not all of it), overcasting spells seems to inflict much more pain on the caster than the rules would actually allow. With first aid and decent Drain pools, a mage may not even take any actual damage from overcasting a few spells every fight.
First of all, the mage needs to get first aid which means he did take damage. Second, most of what I have read seem to indicate that the mage gets a minor headache from casting normal spells, which means he does not have that good a Drain pool in the first place. So it simply means that the guy is a "normal" guy without max(soft-max or hard-max) Drain attributes. With Willpower 4 and some other mental Attribute 3, how much Drain can this guy reasonably soak as opposed to some guy with Willpower 5+ and other Drain Attribute 5+ like most optimised PCs? Or it could be simply that the guy rolled poorly. 6-8 against 10-12. That could be a difference of 2 Force. Look for reasons within the rules that fit the fluff before dismissing the rules as not fitting the fluff; if you do not care to look for those reasons, you will not find them.
QUOTE (toturi @ Aug 26 2009, 12:22 AM)
First of all, the mage needs to get first aid which means he did take damage. Second, most of what I have read seem to indicate that the mage gets a minor headache from casting normal spells, which means he does not have that good a Drain pool in the first place. So it simply means that the guy is a "normal" guy without max(soft-max or hard-max) Drain attributes. With Willpower 4 and some other mental Attribute 3, how much Drain can this guy reasonably soak as opposed to some guy with Willpower 5+ and other Drain Attribute 5+ like most optimised PCs? Or it could be simply that the guy rolled poorly. 6-8 against 10-12. That could be a difference of 2 Force. Look for reasons within the rules that fit the fluff before dismissing the rules as not fitting the fluff; if you do not care to look for those reasons, you will not find them.
If you use a big enough shoe horn you can make any rules fit into any fluff.
Its a stretch to say that the current rules of overcast all the time fit the fluff of overcasting is a dangerous last resort activity. I mean sure I can always say PCs are the exception to the fluff, but that kind of negates the reason to have the fluff. But then again pretty much none of the current rules fit the fluff if you include the PCs.
Though this reminded me that I always thought if they had decided overcasting was max x1.5 your current magic attribute instead of x2 some of the early game abuses would have been avoided.
I've frequently longed for a metamagic that would let me overcast even harder. Honestly, the drain code on Knockout (1/2 force - 3) just makes me want to dial it up to Force 15 and put dragons to sleep. 4P drain, it'd be like taking a light pistol shot.
I usually run it so if you overcast and manage to resist all the drain, you still take 1 box of stun damage that is unresistable. No matter what, if you overcast, you will take some damage.
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 28 2009, 10:15 AM)
If you use a big enough shoe horn you can make any rules fit into any fluff.
Its a stretch to say that the current rules of overcast all the time fit the fluff of overcasting is a dangerous last resort activity. I mean sure I can always say PCs are the exception to the fluff, but that kind of negates the reason to have the fluff. But then again pretty much none of the current rules fit the fluff if you include the PCs.
Though this reminded me that I always thought if they had decided overcasting was max x1.5 your current magic attribute instead of x2 some of the early game abuses would have been avoided.
Its a stretch to say that the current rules of overcast all the time fit the fluff of overcasting is a dangerous last resort activity. I mean sure I can always say PCs are the exception to the fluff, but that kind of negates the reason to have the fluff. But then again pretty much none of the current rules fit the fluff if you include the PCs.
Though this reminded me that I always thought if they had decided overcasting was max x1.5 your current magic attribute instead of x2 some of the early game abuses would have been avoided.
Indeed. And if you try to fit a size 8 shoe on a size 10 foot, you'd say that it does not fit, even if you shoehorn it in. Naturally it does not. Especially since the rules can accomodate a wider range of feet than in the fluff. PCs cover a much wider range. Few writers would want to write about such uber-PCs like the pornomancer, then they'd be accused of Mary-Sue-ism. None of the current fluff fit an optimised PC. The fluff does fit the rules however. Even when it doesn't, remember the writer is the de facto GM of the story, he may have houserules you may not know about and many of the fluff people seem to be very fond of houserules.
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