Full Version: Bioware upgrades
Was wondering what other story tellers charge their players when they decide to go from one rating to another. Do you charge them the full price of the newer rating or subtract the old rating from the new? For cyberware I would charge them the full price as it is being replaced but what about bioware?
By RAW and supporting materials, Bio and Cyber follow the same rules in this regards. You are not ugrading an existing piece, you are replacing it entirely. Now, their doc may be willing to give them a discount based on how used their old implant/ware is if they can reuse it.
Actually, the way I have usually seen it done, so long as you're not changing the GRADE of the 'ware, most Bioware with "levels" can be "upgraded" by usually adding "more" of the needed material.
But if you want to change grades, there's no way to pull that out.
Also, keep in mind "cultured" BioWare can't be resold as it's "cultured" to the original owner.
But if you want to change grades, there's no way to pull that out.
Also, keep in mind "cultured" BioWare can't be resold as it's "cultured" to the original owner.
Based on my reading of the rules and my mental view of the process, I'd charge full price and go with the replacement. If you can't just add on to Cyberware, you really shouldn't be able to do it with Bioware, from either a common sense or rules perspective. If asked to justify it, I'd say that the cell cultures (or other modifications, as befits the augmentation) have to grow together in order to function properly - if the unit isn't installed/grown/modified as a whole, it just won't work out.
QUOTE (DarkKindness @ Aug 25 2009, 07:46 PM) 
Based on my reading of the rules and my mental view of the process, I'd charge full price and go with the replacement. If you can't just add on to Cyberware, you really shouldn't be able to do it with Bioware, from either a common sense or rules perspective. If asked to justify it, I'd say that the cell cultures (or other modifications, as befits the augmentation) have to grow together in order to function properly - if the unit isn't installed/grown/modified as a whole, it just won't work out.
Try going back to the very earliest listings of BioWare (SR2 ShadowTech). It's described for most of the "leveled" areas as being "encouraged" to grow or develop in a certain way, or the insertion of certain new kinds of materials into the existing tissues. I would submit that any of the "leveled" BioWare is going to be extremely difficult to remove. Things like a SupraThyroid or Pain Editor or Nephritic Screens are discreet and localized items which would be removed and replaced. But the musculature enhancements, bone density, Synaptic Accelerator and Cerebral Boosters are more integrated, more interwoven with the host tissues and they are well dispersed, relatively speaking. I would also say that OrthoSkin is similar, but in that case you could encourage rapid cell death on the layers involved and use that as a means of removal. But for the ones I specifically called out, I see no reason you couldn't add "more" of what the mods actually put in; More reinforcing in muscle, more deposits in the bone, further elongating and thickening of the transmissive neurons or further ridging on the cerebrum to increase processing power even further.
But that's just me. For game balance, you could say go ahead and rip it all out, but I have to tell you, that's going to make some things really hard on PCs. What you may find in a case like that is PCs taking cheap (and easily removable) speed 'wires as chrome and when they have enough cash, going all in on the final version of their BioWare.
Incidentally, I never thought Wired Reflexes actually had to be fully removed. A huge part of the Essence cost is the way it alters the user's perception of the world and how they interact/feel with it. I would expect replacement of a key module or two and full replacement of firmware, but you'd SAVE enough money by not having to re-implant all the control circuits that are already in place the "lost" money vanishes into the full normal cost of the upgraded 'wires.
Again it comes down (IMHO) to if something is discrete or distributed. The big eception would be dermal [armor type] where the individual plates are actually discrete even if there are a lot of them, and bone lacing; Bone lacing is pretty hard to reverse, and it's a complete change between types, not an "upgrade" anyhow.
That's my thinking.
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 25 2009, 07:13 PM)
Try going back to the very earliest listings of BioWare (SR2 ShadowTech). It's described for most of the "leveled" areas as being "encouraged" to grow or develop in a certain way, or the insertion of certain new kinds of materials into the existing tissues. <snip>
But that's just me. For game balance, you could say go ahead and rip it all out, but I have to tell you, that's going to make some things really hard on PCs. What you may find in a case like that is PCs taking cheap (and easily removable) speed 'wires as chrome and when they have enough cash, going all in on the final version of their BioWare.
But that's just me. For game balance, you could say go ahead and rip it all out, but I have to tell you, that's going to make some things really hard on PCs. What you may find in a case like that is PCs taking cheap (and easily removable) speed 'wires as chrome and when they have enough cash, going all in on the final version of their BioWare.
As to the first point, it's been a VERY long time since I've read any of the ol' SR2 documents, but I can definitely see where you're coming from.
As to the second point, I honestly don't see this as being a bad thing, per se. I really see it fitting in with the down-and-out, grab whatever works, quick and dirty portrayal of beginning Shadowrunners. These are often people who are scrimping and saving to get what they're really after, and who are willing to fill in with a stopgap solution until then. Dunno, just my impression of the world and ymmv.
You've got an essence hole left over when you take out 'ware anyway. So it doesn't hurt them to take bigger wires and the later tear them out for the bio, as long as they remember there is still a gaping essence hole from the wires.
Yes, that's gritty, but why set something up just to grapp with them if it's more reasonable to go the other way, logically based on the fluff?
Just askin'
Just askin'
I think it's important to consider, which is better for the corp, in the field upgrades or whole replacement? The answer is whole replacement, therefore whole replacement is the answer. 
With cyber-ware I could see a certain argument for after market tinkering, but bio-ware not so much.
With cyber-ware I could see a certain argument for after market tinkering, but bio-ware not so much.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 26 2009, 06:58 PM)
I think it's important to consider, which is better for the corp, in the field upgrades or whole replacement? The answer is whole replacement, therefore whole replacement is the answer.
With cyber-ware I could see a certain argument for after market tinkering, but bio-ware not so much.
With cyber-ware I could see a certain argument for after market tinkering, but bio-ware not so much.
Define please: "Tinkering".
Upgrading the servo's on a cyberarm to give it higher ratings, improving the processor on your wires etc etc.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 26 2009, 07:02 PM)
Upgrading the servo's on a cyberarm to give it higher ratings, improving the processor on your wires etc etc.
Oh, sorry.
I am a lot harder on "upgrading" chrome than I am BioWare. What you're describing is more than just the servos, it's the power feeds, structural reinforcing to take advantage of the new servos... limbs just get replaced when you play games like that. Now, changing out the gadgets stuffed into the "capacity"? That's more interesting.
And go back to the argument I made about Wired Reflexes and leaving a lot of the basic bits behind but replacing the (expensive) main control and processing nexus and putting in new firmware interfaces. The removed 'ware helps cover the cost of not having to implant again. *shrug* I say it's very much a case-by-case basis.
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 26 2009, 06:17 PM)
Oh, sorry.
I am a lot harder on "upgrading" chrome than I am BioWare. What you're describing is more than just the servos, it's the power feeds, structural reinforcing to take advantage of the new servos... limbs just get replaced when you play games like that. Now, changing out the gadgets stuffed into the "capacity"? That's more interesting.
And go back to the argument I made about Wired Reflexes and leaving a lot of the basic bits behind but replacing the (expensive) main control and processing nexus and putting in new firmware interfaces. The removed 'ware helps cover the cost of not having to implant again. *shrug* I say it's very much a case-by-case basis.
I am a lot harder on "upgrading" chrome than I am BioWare. What you're describing is more than just the servos, it's the power feeds, structural reinforcing to take advantage of the new servos... limbs just get replaced when you play games like that. Now, changing out the gadgets stuffed into the "capacity"? That's more interesting.
And go back to the argument I made about Wired Reflexes and leaving a lot of the basic bits behind but replacing the (expensive) main control and processing nexus and putting in new firmware interfaces. The removed 'ware helps cover the cost of not having to implant again. *shrug* I say it's very much a case-by-case basis.
See this confuses me, you wouldn't allow players to replace power feeds and servos but would allow them to squirt new tissue into existing organic systems?
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 26 2009, 07:40 PM)
See this confuses me, you wouldn't allow players to replace power feeds and servos but would allow them to squirt new tissue into existing organic systems?
Misunderstanding or intent I see.
OK. Bioware that is of a systemically distributed nature is adding to nature's existing systems. Add more material and you get a higher "rating". Discrete bioware (Adrenal pump, Suprathyroid, Nephritic screens) are a single "clump" and are actually implanted rather than "squirted" as you so aptly put it. "Here, drink this, and let me give you these injections. Huh? Oh, yeah, I know it tastes awful. Everybody says that. Here, now drink this pink stuff. Yeah, it's even worse. Sorry, I should have warned you."
Now, with chrome, you're replacing parts generally speaking when you change rating. That's why the discrepancy. Especially since you can sell the old parts, unlike most distributed (or cultured) bioware. Any kind of 'wires (skill, reaction, etc) have leads throughout the body that are essentially common, while there are primary processors and sub-processors that get replaced with upgrades. Now, when you change GRADES (as opposed to ratings), you're yanking stuff out in any case.
That a little less murky?
It is but I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning. Setting aside your drinking example as I'm sure it was mostly for comedic affect it raises the question if bioware was just a matter of "Drink X amount for X affect" why couldn't you just buy it at stuffer shack? Considering in most cases were looking for a profound affect on the whole body the measurements and dosages would need to be exacting to prevent complications, in the cases of cultured ware the considerations are even more severe. So no in short if anything I would presume that an upgrade of levels requires if anything a full body purge of existing bio before new systems can be implaced. In the case of synthetic organs (addrenal pump, platelet factories etc it's not like you can just dig in and inject some steroids in my mind.
I feel loutish for suggesting this, but is it not conceivable that Kerenshara's familiarity with the complexities of altering mechanical systems leads my honourable fellow poster to the conclusion "it is quite difficult to alter this," whereas, knowing less about bioware's specifics, no problem is seen with adding to existing organic systems?
I suggest that adding a rated bioware system (let's assume muscle augmentation) is more than adding special vat-grown muscle fiber to the existing fiber; one must take into account, I imagine, the structural integrity of the bones, the elasticity of the ligaments connecting bones to other bones, the tensile strength of tendons connecting muscles to bones, and the volume of fascia connecting muscles to other muscles, among other things.
In short, if bioware were easy, it wouldn't cost the big bucks.
QUOTE
What you're describing is more than just the servos, it's the power feeds, structural reinforcing to take advantage of the new servos... limbs just get replaced when you play games like that.
I suggest that adding a rated bioware system (let's assume muscle augmentation) is more than adding special vat-grown muscle fiber to the existing fiber; one must take into account, I imagine, the structural integrity of the bones, the elasticity of the ligaments connecting bones to other bones, the tensile strength of tendons connecting muscles to bones, and the volume of fascia connecting muscles to other muscles, among other things.
In short, if bioware were easy, it wouldn't cost the big bucks.
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 25 2009, 09:13 PM)
[font="Lucida Console"]Try going back to the very earliest listings of BioWare (SR2 ShadowTech). It's described for most of the "leveled" areas as being "encouraged" to grow or develop in a certain way, or the insertion of certain new kinds of materials into the existing tissues. I would submit that any of the "leveled" BioWare is going to be extremely difficult to remove. Things like a SupraThyroid or Pain Editor or Nephritic Screens are discreet and localized items which would be removed and replaced. But the musculature enhancements, bone density, Synaptic Accelerator and Cerebral Boosters are more integrated, more interwoven with the host tissues and they are well dispersed, relatively speaking. I would also say that OrthoSkin is similar, but in that case you could encourage rapid cell death on the layers involved and use that as a means of removal. But for the ones I specifically called out, I see no reason you couldn't add "more" of what the mods actually put in; More reinforcing in muscle, more deposits in the bone, further elongating and thickening of the transmissive neurons or further ridging on the cerebrum to increase processing power even further.
Growth hormones, proteins, etc.....
What causes higher levels of bioware to be less available? They have a longer grow time, simple as that. Same thing with alpha/beta/delta, longer growth time combined with more complex growth process. It's not a hard stretch that adding certain specific proteins and hormones would trigger bioware to grow while in a body. The major questions should be price and downtime, or growth time.
If you go from Muscle Toner 2 to Muscle Toner 3, should it cost the price difference of 8,000? I don't think so. 8,000 + a % of the already installed bioware cost, say 50%, so 16,000 to go from 2 to 3, rather than having to pay 24,000 to replace it.
What are the implications of the upgrade growth? How long does it take? Can the patient exert himself while the bioware is growing? That's actually the bigger concern.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 26 2009, 08:41 PM)
It is but I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning. Setting aside your drinking example as I'm sure it was mostly for comedic affect it raises the question if bioware was just a matter of "Drink X amount for X affect" why couldn't you just buy it at stuffer shack? Considering in most cases were looking for a profound affect on the whole body the measurements and dosages would need to be exacting to prevent complications, in the cases of cultured ware the considerations are even more severe. So no in short if anything I would presume that an upgrade of levels requires if anything a full body purge of existing bio before new systems can be implaced. In the case of synthetic organs (addrenal pump, platelet factories etc it's not like you can just dig in and inject some steroids in my mind.
OK, first off, depending on the 'ware in question, yes, it may be just that easy. Some of the old literature had certain things as walk-in, not even out-patient. You're exactly right about dosage measuring and so forth, which is why Stuffer ShackTM doesn't have them generically. I never suggested (or meant to suggest) that cultured ware was "simple" to do, but that's mostly because the concoctions are even more closely tailored to the individual. Adding more material increases the effect on the body (Rating). And keep in mind I am ONLY talking about systemically distributed things like Muscle Toner, Muscle Augmentation, synthecardium and Orthoskin. Those things that are creating or supplanting new organs entirely would require complete replacement.
QUOTE (McAllister @ Aug 27 2009, 11:30 AM)
I feel loutish for suggesting this, but is it not conceivable that Kerenshara's familiarity with the complexities of altering mechanical systems leads my honourable fellow poster to the conclusion "it is quite difficult to alter this," whereas, knowing less about bioware's specifics, no problem is seen with adding to existing organic systems?
This isn't about difficulty. We're not talking about surgery here. We're talking about (or at least I am talking about) whether component level replacement is required or not. I wasn't commenting at ALL about the difficulty of said replacements whatsoever except in how it related to the needed "parts" for an upgrade.
See my post just ahead of this where I went back into some of the issues. Essentially, if it is systemically distributed, it probably GOT there (going by old fluff) by drinking nasty concoctions and having nanites or something similarly handwavium to handle the construction. The only functional difference is the ammount of material and the effective strain (ESSence loss) on the body.
Discrete systems are grown outside the host and implanted. That's a "component".
Cultured 'ware is mostly "systemic" in that they aren't going in to layer brain cells. The older descriptions were about how the relevant cells were "coaxed" and "encouraged" to over-develop to one extent or another, either growing longer and broader (Synaptic Accelerator) or forming more surface area by increasing the "ridging" in the frontal lobes of the brain (Cerebral Boosters). In both cases you just encourage more of the same right up to the limits the (meta)human body will support.
QUOTE
I suggest that adding a rated bioware system (let's assume muscle augmentation) is more than adding special vat-grown muscle fiber to the existing fiber; one must take into account, I imagine, the structural integrity of the bones, the elasticity of the ligaments connecting bones to other bones, the tensile strength of tendons connecting muscles to bones, and the volume of fascia connecting muscles to other muscles, among other things.
In short, if bioware were easy, it wouldn't cost the big bucks.
In short, if bioware were easy, it wouldn't cost the big bucks.
The ligaments ARE covered in the relevant procedures. Bone integrity natively is a separate procedure (Bone Density Augmentation). Elasticity is the opposite side of the equation (AGIlity vs STRength).
Bioware is expensive because you can't "mass produce" it like you can circuits and servos and sensors. You have to grow it in extremely precise circumstances. THAT is why it is so expensive.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 27 2009, 12:18 PM)
Growth hormones, proteins, etc.....
What causes higher levels of bioware to be less available? They have a longer grow time, simple as that. Same thing with alpha/beta/delta, longer growth time combined with more complex growth process. It's not a hard stretch that adding certain specific proteins and hormones would trigger bioware to grow while in a body. The major questions should be price and downtime, or growth time.
If you go from Muscle Toner 2 to Muscle Toner 3, should it cost the price difference of 8,000? I don't think so. 8,000 + a % of the already installed bioware cost, say 50%, so 16,000 to go from 2 to 3, rather than having to pay 24,000 to replace it.
What are the implications of the upgrade growth? How long does it take? Can the patient exert himself while the bioware is growing? That's actually the bigger concern.
What causes higher levels of bioware to be less available? They have a longer grow time, simple as that. Same thing with alpha/beta/delta, longer growth time combined with more complex growth process. It's not a hard stretch that adding certain specific proteins and hormones would trigger bioware to grow while in a body. The major questions should be price and downtime, or growth time.
If you go from Muscle Toner 2 to Muscle Toner 3, should it cost the price difference of 8,000? I don't think so. 8,000 + a % of the already installed bioware cost, say 50%, so 16,000 to go from 2 to 3, rather than having to pay 24,000 to replace it.
What are the implications of the upgrade growth? How long does it take? Can the patient exert himself while the bioware is growing? That's actually the bigger concern.
THIS is what I have been trying to get at. In terms of price, I would say it's just the diference, and in any case, you're not particularly "removing" anything. Recovery time probably would be pretty close to the original because radical changes are harder to accept than lower order changes, even while similar. The GM may decide to let the recovery time slide some, but most BioWare is pretty quick to recover from (Bone Density being a notable exception, saying it's quite lengthy and painful). Price I just see it as "more of what's already inside", so I would just go with the difference. But I think you're on the same page generally, even if your "extents" may not match mine (done to keep things a little simpler - BioWare is already expensive enough as it is.).
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 27 2009, 02:09 PM)
THIS is what I have been trying to get at. In terms of price, I would say it's just the diference, and in any case, you're not particularly "removing" anything. Recovery time probably would be pretty close to the original because radical changes are harder to accept than lower order changes, even while similar. The GM may decide to let the recovery time slide some, but most BioWare is pretty quick to recover from (Bone Density being a notable exception, saying it's quite lengthy and painful). Price I just see it as "more of what's already inside", so I would just go with the difference. But I think you're on the same page generally, even if your "extents" may not match mine (done to keep things a little simpler - BioWare is already expensive enough as it is.).
I tend to think that upgrading is going to be more expensive over the long run while cheaper up front.
For example, let's use Muscle Toner @ 8,000 per level with say 10% of the base cost plus the difference...
You start out at Muscle Toner 1 for 8,000.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 2 from 1, 8,000 + (8,000 * .1) = 8,800 to upgrade, 16,800 total.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 3 from 2, 8,000 + (16,000 * .1) = 9,600 to upgrade, 26,400 total.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 4 from 3, 8,000 + (24,000 * .1) = 10,400 to upgrade, 36,800 total.
You start out at Muscle Toner 2 for 16,000.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 3 from 2, 8,000 + (16,000 * .1) = 9,600 to upgrade, 25,600 total.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 4 from 3, 8,000 + (24,000 * .1) = 10,400 to upgrade, 36,000 total.
You start out at Muscle Toner 3 for 24,000.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 4 from 3, 8,000 + (24,000 * .1) = 10,400 to upgrade, 34,400 total.
It also makes it more cost effective to upgrade more than one level at a time.
You start out at Muscle Toner 1 for 8,000
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 4 from 1, 24,000 + (8,000 * .1) = 24,800 to upgrade, 32,800 total.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 27 2009, 01:28 PM)
I tend to think that upgrading is going to be more expensive over the long run while cheaper up front.
For example, let's use Muscle Toner @ 8,000 per level with say 10% of the base cost plus the difference...
You start out at Muscle Toner 1 for 8,000.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 2 from 1, 8,000 + (8,000 * .1) = 8,800 to upgrade, 16,800 total.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 3 from 2, 8,000 + (16,000 * .1) = 9,600 to upgrade, 26,400 total.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 4 from 3, 8,000 + (24,000 * .1) = 10,400 to upgrade, 36,800 total.
You start out at Muscle Toner 2 for 16,000.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 3 from 2, 8,000 + (16,000 * .1) = 9,600 to upgrade, 25,600 total.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 4 from 3, 8,000 + (24,000 * .1) = 10,400 to upgrade, 36,000 total.
You start out at Muscle Toner 3 for 24,000.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 4 from 3, 8,000 + (24,000 * .1) = 10,400 to upgrade, 34,400 total.
It also makes it more cost effective to upgrade more than one level at a time.
You start out at Muscle Toner 1 for 8,000
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 4 from 1, 24,000 + (8,000 * .1) = 24,800 to upgrade, 32,800 total.
For example, let's use Muscle Toner @ 8,000 per level with say 10% of the base cost plus the difference...
You start out at Muscle Toner 1 for 8,000.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 2 from 1, 8,000 + (8,000 * .1) = 8,800 to upgrade, 16,800 total.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 3 from 2, 8,000 + (16,000 * .1) = 9,600 to upgrade, 26,400 total.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 4 from 3, 8,000 + (24,000 * .1) = 10,400 to upgrade, 36,800 total.
You start out at Muscle Toner 2 for 16,000.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 3 from 2, 8,000 + (16,000 * .1) = 9,600 to upgrade, 25,600 total.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 4 from 3, 8,000 + (24,000 * .1) = 10,400 to upgrade, 36,000 total.
You start out at Muscle Toner 3 for 24,000.
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 4 from 3, 8,000 + (24,000 * .1) = 10,400 to upgrade, 34,400 total.
It also makes it more cost effective to upgrade more than one level at a time.
You start out at Muscle Toner 1 for 8,000
You upgrade to Muscle Toner 4 from 1, 24,000 + (8,000 * .1) = 24,800 to upgrade, 32,800 total.
*ponders*
OK, that's simple enough in implementation to work for me... on the systemicly distributed systems anyhow.
I'm cool with that.
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 27 2009, 02:41 PM)
*ponders*
OK, that's simple enough in implementation to work for me... on the systemicly distributed systems anyhow.
I'm cool with that.
OK, that's simple enough in implementation to work for me... on the systemicly distributed systems anyhow.
I'm cool with that.
Hah, if I wanted to make it complicate I would say 10% of what you've -spent- rather than 10% of buy price of what you have.
Start at 8,000 for Muscle Toner 1.
Upgrade to 2, 8,000 + (8,000 * .1) = 8,800 for 16,800 total
Upgrade to 3, 8,000 + (16,800 * .1) = 9,680 for 26,480 total
Upgrade to 4, 8,000 + (26,480 * .1) = 10,648 for 37,128 total.
The first method is just less bookkeeping....
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 27 2009, 02:10 PM)
Hah, if I wanted to make it complicate I would say 10% of what you've -spent- rather than 10% of buy price of what you have.
Don't make me get out my fish...
*grin*
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 27 2009, 04:05 PM)
Don't make me get out my fish...
*grin*
*grin*
I'm assuming that's some sort of inside joke that I don't understand.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 27 2009, 03:10 PM)
I'm assuming that's some sort of inside joke that I don't understand.
You don't read too many of my posts, do you?
*smacks StealthSigma with a large tuna*
It's an old schtick going back forever, smacking somebody with a big fish.
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 27 2009, 04:13 PM)
You don't read too many of my posts, do you?
*smacks StealthSigma with a large tuna*
It's an old schtick going back forever, smacking somebody with a big fish.
*smacks StealthSigma with a large tuna*
It's an old schtick going back forever, smacking somebody with a big fish.
I thought fish were only used to cut down large trees.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Aug 27 2009, 05:29 PM)
I thought fish were only used to cut down large trees.
Not all fish and not any large tree. It must be the mightiest tree in the forest with a herring.
(Although I believe a marlin would make it easier
)
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