A while back I was reading some arsenal related thread and somebody mentioned how electronic firing could be used to turn a minigun, which fires it's bullets sequentially, into something that would be capable of simultaneously firing multiple bullets. This isn't too far fetched because it's essentially available for the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki, but isn't called electronic firing explicitly. Has any GM allowed this on a minigun?

I was considering the possibilities of a Ruger Super Warhawk firing multiple bullets at once and it seems kinda good, but in my mind it's just as good as allowing modified recoil compensation rules so you can equip a FA'd revolver with sufficient recoil compensation. Do you guys think this is too broken or OP or whatever?

Realistically you'd have to increase the barrel lengths on the cylinder and other stuff... ideas? thoughts?

OK, first, you're discussing three totally separate technologies here.

You mentioned an electric drive train, like a minigun; You also mentioned the Electronic Firing from Arsenal; and you mentioned what's collectively known as MetalStorm.

An electric drive train does not equal electronic firing; the bullets are still ignited by conventional impact primers struck by mechanical firing pins.

The "stack-o-bullets" described for the Sakura Fabuki is a MetalStorm derivative, where each bullet is self-contained and stacked in a row, and you can command any single round to ignite in any order (though you usually want to go from the top down for obvious reasons). This system has the advantage of being able to (in theory) achieve effective "rates of fire" passing one million rounds per second in the correct arrangement, usually several parallel tubes like the four seen on the Sakura Fabuki. The PROBLEM with the system is that although in theory there's no recoil DURING THE SHOT because the rounds all leave the barrel before the forces can reach the back of the barrel, in practice it turns into a fearsome amount of recoil that needs to be absorbed by the firing platform. It also means you don't need a reloading and recoil mechanisms on normal guns, but that's a drawback too.

Reloading a conventional clip-fed weapon is a relatively simple and straight-foward process, even under fire. Reloading a MetalStorm weapon requires you to stand in front of the weapon and carefully slide in a stack of rounds (that you need to keep in order) perfectly straight. It's a tight fit (gun barrel, duh) and it won't work if you're not exactly parallel to the barrel. That's a nightmare under fire. If you made a breech loaded version, that would help SOME but now you're starting to chip away at the simplicity that makes MetalStorm so theoretically attractive. These systems have their place, usually some sort of point-defense scenario where the ability to throw up a wall of projectiles is paramount. Keep in mind, though, that what that rate-of-fire really means is that you're emptying your weapon in no time flat, and your ammunition expenditure is going to be frightening. Coupled with the fact that the rounds themselves are extremely expensive and complex compared to standard cartridge (or normal caseless) bullets, and you have a system that prices itself out pretty quickly.

The third category is "electronic firing" as described in Arsenal. Here, the mechanical workings between the trigger and the firing pin are all removed, replaced with a simple electrical circuit. This means that many of the moving parts that contribute to "pull" errors in a double-action weapon are eliminated (thus the +1 RC of the feature) and the primer is ignited by a tiny electrical charge which both keeps internal movement to a minimum and results in extreme reliability. The game stipulates that this must be combined with caseless ammunition, which also means you don't need to bother with an ejection mechanism (back to recoil again) but that also minimizes chances for fouling by foreign contaminants and simplifies certain design requirements of the weapon. Some people like to bitch about the RC component of the design, but if you consider a) the dramatic reduction in moving parts and b) the relatively tiny amount of help RC 1 really represents (think automatic .22 pistol with a heavy barrel levels of recoil) by itself, I am willing to let it go. Also, it makes the weapon quieter by -1 on the detection rolls. People say that's meaningless, but you've eliminated the ejection mechanism (and any attendant flying brass) as well as the sounds of the hammer and firing pin. In normal circumstances with normal ammunition, that's meaningless in the grand scheme of things. But if you're using a custom silencer (wet/dry preferably) and subsonic ammunition, suddenly the sound of the mechanical parts become important especially in a quiet environment. Ever dry-fire a pistol in a quiet room? The action and hammer make noticable noise. For that matter, how many times have the sounds of a clacking action or cocking hammer on a pistol, shotgun or assault rifle been used to intimidate people in movies and even real life?

The last category, that you didn't mention, would be ETC (Electro Thermal Chemical) Liquid Propellant (LP) firing. Here, we take the electronic firing above to the next level. Now, the only thing in your magazine is the actual delivery systems (the lead or whatever's in the tip of your normal bullet). Instead of primer and powder in a casing or as a solid block attached to the payload, you have a tiny high-pressure tank of fuel on board as a second "clip". Keeping the two separate has many advantages. First, you can adjust the power of the "load" with a dial (thought on a smartgun). Second, you aren't worried about dud primers, because you atomize a tiny amount of the liquid gas propellant in the chamber behind the round and ignite it with a spark. Third, you dramatically alter ammunition feed and storage, increasing magazine capacities dramatically while simplifying ammunition loading. An overlooked advantage of ETC is that the detonation and burn of the propellant is orders of magnitude "softer" and more even over time, meaning that instead of a crushing initial acceleration from zero and a decreasing RATE of acceleration as the round travels up the barrel, you get a much more gentle and continuous push. That makes things like electronically steered rounds possible or electronics delivery rounds much easier (read: cheaper) to build. It also means you can design a lighter-weight barrel because there is less peak force to compensate for (another RC bonus). And since you've already got an electronic ammunition loader, the possibility for mission programmable/selectable (different kinds of rounds) payload starts to become not only plausible but achievable. This is a much more complex arangement than the basic Arsenal electronic firing option, but it's still at least as reliable as a normal gun, and coupled with the advantages (namely, ammunition weight drops by as much as a third) it's worth considering. It's lighter, potentially more powerful and accurate, more flexible and adaptable than other technologies, and I am dissapointed we haven't seen anything about this yet.

Incidentally, the Army and the Navy have been playing around with this technology for a decade or more to be applied to artillery and smaller diameter cannons.

*EDIT* Nomenclature.

Kerenshara:
Has it been mentioned how fascinating, impressive and ultimately frightening your knowledge of firearms is?
Any thoughts on how an ETC firearm would operate in game?

Quite a few, actually. For those who care, there IS an ETC LP assault rifle in R.Talsorian's CyberPunk 2020, in one of the supplements (Maximum Metal?) which is essentially an Ares Alpha with a different firing option.

First, it's not something you can "refit" - it's too radical.

Second, it's going to have a minimum 2 RC due to the lack of moving parts and "softer" push.

Third, ammunition capacity (the payload side) is going to go through the roof. Assault rifles with 100-150 rounds is entirely possible, because you can make a drum or helix magazine that only has to accomodate the payloads. Think of it as a helical or drum version of the clip on the P90 (with the unique 90 degree loading ramp) on an assault rifle.

Fourth, the fuel tank can either be a part of the clip or a separate (removable?) tank on the gun itself. Ammunition here is going to be (functionally) limitless if it's on the rifle... unless you're realy planning a 1,500 round firefight. On the other hand, if you're playing with the thing in "hot" mode, the RC drops to 1 while range goes up, damage goes up and AP goes up. That's going to eat fuel about 50% faster I would say as a simple game mechanic. On the other side, set it to subsonic and your numbers all drop except for RC which would go to 3.

Fifth, since things are so "simple" mechanically, designing in native recoil compensation to the bolt (Ares Alpha has something like this, for example) is much easier, so in normal mode, the thing's going to have a RC of 4 before extras like a shock pad.

Sixth, it's going to be smaller, more compact that a similar full up weapon due to all the lighter/removed parts, so Concealability's going to improve by 1.

So, a heavy rifle equivalent (on par with a IRL H&K G3 battle rifle) is going to be:

(Modes are Subsonic/Normal/Hot)

Ares M-2200 ETC LP Rifle
Damage: 6P/7P/7P
AP: -1/-2/-3
Mode: SA/BF/FA (applies in all modes)
RC: 5/4/3
Ammo: 100 (Clip)
Availability: 16F
Cost: 5,000Â¥
Range: Assault Rifle/Sporting Rifle/Sporting Rifle (Unless you have a longer barrel version, +1 Conceal, then Sniper Rifle)
Reliability: +1
Concealability: +5
Other: -1 DP modifier to tests to hear this weapon in all modes. Apply subsonic modifiers as normal. Includes smartgun, shock pad (not included in RC).

If that seems über to you, it should. This is the last stop in projectile weapons technology before first electromagnetic (so-called gauss rifles) then gravity driven rounds (pulsers, to borrow David Webber's term).

Let me think about pistol stats. It would probably be a small diameter round, so the ammunition capacity's going to be high. Figure it for a machine pistol, actually.

Ares M-2210 ETC LP Pistol
Damage: 4P/4P/4P
AP: -/-1/-2
Mode: SA/BF/FA (applies in all modes)
RC: 4/3/2
Ammo: 50 (Clip)
Availability: 16F
Cost: 2,500Â¥
Range: Light Pistol/Light Pistol/Heavy Pistol
Reliability: +1
Concealability: -
Other: -1 DP modifier to tests to hear this weapon in all modes. Apply subsonic modifiers as normal. Includes smartgun.

How's that?

Oh, final note: ammunition's going to be a copperplated bitch to find, availability to match the weapon, unless you make your own, which is actually easy since all you need to make is the payload. The fuel is going to be easy to make, a propane derivative probably.

*EDIT* Thanks to InfinityzeN who caught me swapping nomenclature. I've been away from a few things a bit too long.

This looks awesome!
In a quick google search the XM360 came up, which I am at least passingly familiar and this all clicks now!
I am, however, completely unfamiliar with 'gravity driven rounds' and haven't read any Weber. Is it related to the Pulse Rifle from Aliens? (naming coincidence?)
I can imagine that for a Shadowrunner making your own rounds would be the only way to keep this gun stocked reliably (unless you could get your hands on a whole case of ammo).
The merits of this gun make me wonder why it hasn't been explored in SR. Are the designers just not as much into guns and gadgets as we are?
Another example: a gauss rifle in a personnel size is feasible but largely absent.

I was actually thinking of SURGing a human up to Logic 7, throwing in Cerebral Boosters 3, designing a personnel-sized gauss rifle, and selling it to Ares for enough cash to buy a High lifestyle permanently. Then again, I'd just be begging to be extracted.

Pulsers... I suspect they're not related to pulse rifles at all, but I don't know the specs for those and it's been a long time since I read Weber. Think like a gauss rifle, but instead of applying electromagnetic force to a ferrous slug, you're applying concentrated gravitational force to a needle, which accelerates to obscene speeds. Kerenshara, are people researching this, or is it still "not even sure if it's plausible" sci-fi?

Emphasis mine. I don't feel like separating all the quotes.

Thank you. I still haven't had time to recompile my firearms listing with ammunition-centric stats, but it's in process. Essentially, I upgrade the FN HAR to a "heavy rifle" platform and the damage and AP rise by one each.

Gravity driven: as in the weapon produces a multi-thousand gee gravity well the length of the barrel and uses that to accelerate the round to somewhere in the vicinity of mach 6. Call that, oh, 1000 years in the future, when we have counter-gravity and artificial gravity.

Why hasn't it been explored? Because it's a bit of an exotic technology and it's not as "cool" or "flashy" as lasers and gauss cannon I would imagine. I mean, how many people had even heard of it until my post? I'd wager not too many. Keep in mind that even rules for "caseless" ammunition were dropped between 2nd and 3rd editions. Now it's just a flavor choice you make when you buy the gun; It doesn't even affect price or availability, much less clip size. When you don't bother to stat out caseless ammo, ETC seems like a colossal waste, neh? The problem is the designers (especially of 4th Ed) were trying to simplify the game a great deal, and the wound up simplifying some things that were simple enough already. Most of the hard-core players actually LIKE guns and the idea of customizing them tickles them right under the chin. As a side note, I was not overly impressed with the Arsenal customization rules; As much as I hate to do it, I need to try to get my hands on a 3rd Ed Cannon Companion for more bits. We'd LIKE a little more detail and variability to our guns.

On portable gauss weaponry, something you have to understand is that they require substantial materials technology, big capacitors, magnets, cooling systems, all of that. I really was surprised to see a troll-portable version in Arsenal, honestly. I don't think you could get it any smaller than that, even using handwavium in the construction. Not for another ten years or so, anyhow. 2080, I can see it being a squad sized weapon, MMG size MAYBE.

According to Fallout, you can have a Gauss rifle by 2077

I explained WHAT they are above. Figure on 2 or 3mm darts, as opposed to needles.

As to research, not even close. Gravity manipulation technology is light-years down the line, IF it's possible. Heck, the applied research going on for spatial-distortion superluminal propulsion have a better chance of seeing light first (if you need that translated, read: Warp Drive). But it's no more "sci-fi" really than superluminal travel or teleportation... which a number of universities are tinkering with and are up to electron transport already. Not too bad for "impossible", neh? But Gravity Control is truly the holy grail of transportation technology short of superluminal travel. If we get to that point, and we still want to use projectiles for some reason (there are several good ones), then using a grav field to toss them makes perfect sense.

*grumbles and smacks X-Kalibur with a large hallibut*

The current major problem with 'Gauss' weapons is in power storage density. So basically, you can build a weapon, but can't build a battery to run it. Since SR has the battery tech to feed man portable laser weapons, it should easily be adaptable to power Gauss rifles.

Even if you run into engineering problems with getting your magnets robust enough and light enough to use as a rifle, there are still plenty of options that would probably work if you have batteries with a significant energy density advantage over chemical explosives.

In college I got to play with a friends 'garage based gaussian launcher' that launched spare change at targets a ways away.
I know that modern SOTA tech has diverged from SR, but there is a train system based on gaussian propulsion that has passed Japan's bullet train.

My supposition was that with the power cell technology of 2060+ and the advances in electromagnetic generation suggested by various tech by 2070, that the 'garage based gaussian launcher' would be down to personnel size by now.
*NOTE: More so than guns, I get into mad scientist techno-gadgetry.

As has been proposed in current tech, a 'needle' with a frictionless coating could be used in a more moderate sized 'gauss weapon'.

I have a pdf version of the 3rd Ed Cannon Companion if that would be helpful.
I prefer hard-copy, but my original copy disintegrated due to sub-par binding.

The Peak Discharge Battery Packs used in the lasers and whatnot seem to have cleared that hurdle (even solid-state weapon-grade lasers eat power in frightening amounts).

The magnets are a materials science problem, and I assume they got them pretty small.

The big issue is not having the weapon blow itself apart like a cartoon rifle with a cork in the end. The magnets aren't just pushing the projectile down the barrel, they're pushing away on each other with comparable force. THAT's the problem. Sure, with handwavium, you could build a solid barrel that could contain the forces, but then you can't perform maintenance on any of the magnets. And no amount of handwavium is going to convince me you are going to hold the thing together with a #5 screw - sorry. They got it engineered into a crew-served weapon bigger than an assault cannon, but troll-portable. I don't see that shrinking much right off until maybe 2080. THAT is why I don't see them coming down in size or becomming much more common - an assault cannon is just too effective at the same job for a lot less cost and encumbrance.

Guys, just tell me this... I like gun rules, but I don't know a thing about SR3 and I don't have a single book about it. Is it worth reading up on how the mechanics worked back then and getting some books in order to find sexy ballistic nuances that have since been glossed over?

[opinion]
SR1,2,3 have really different rules to SR4 as you might expect.
SR1 had some interesting concepts that didn't always work well in play.
SR2 tuned up the concepts and added more complexity in many ways.
SR3 started the glossing of various details to make room for the flood of material and ease of play.
SR4 simplified things (some say overly so) for more ergonomic rules.

I like guns and gadgets and rules, but I don't like combat that takes as long as WH40K.
The rabbit hole goes deep, but enter at your own peril
[/opinion]

Nah, just wait for Kerenshara to port them in the SR4

*perplexed*

I'm not quite sure how to take that...

*grin*

The large scale MetalStorm weapons I've seen all load from the backside.

This video at 1:38

That makes it marginally easier, but it's still not something to slot with under fire. But I was more thinking hand-held weapons up to Assault Rifle size (since I think that's what was hinted at at the beginning, or that was my impression) or light pintle mount at biggest. Even breechloading, you're going to have a significantly limited number of shots before that critical reload. If you made some kind of automated reloading mechanism would be the equivalent of a Frankenstein mechanical version of the proverbial military "Hurry up and WAIT!" idea, with a massive orgasm of fire followed by periods of enforced dormancy. Still not what you really want under fire.

When the OP mentioned a revolver featuring stacked bullets I immediately thought of the pepperbox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepperbox

only just now did I figure out what OP stood for

I'm so OP.

yea I was hoping for a SR pepperbox that could fire each barrel simultaneously

OK, to be clear: the advantage of MetalStorm style weapons is that the recoil from the whole stack isn't "felt" until the last round is away. That doesn't mean you don't have to absorb all that recoil somehow. Doing it out of six barrels at once?! Chummer, even Stahlseele isn't troll enough to pull that stunt. The recoil mod would be like -36 or better! That's "oops, I fall down, go boom" recoil. Sure, whatever you shot at is PROBABLY not getting back up either, but that's awfully "1-trick-pony" for my tastes... or maybe it's that I expect the GM to set up his badguys in layers/waves the same way I would.

Kerenshara,
Can I repost your ECT Assault Rifle in the topic "An Arsenal of my Own" as quoted text?
It is nice work and it would be nice to have it with other shiny new toys for play.

If it pleases you McCummhail, go right ahead. Just make sure to also grab the technical explanation/apendicies or people are going to go WTF?!

Just to add my 2 to the thread. What is the problem with a gauss needle gun? The amount of energy to fire it would be much smaller and you could load enough ammo in a small clip that would add little to the gun's hindrance.

I'm not so familiar with SR rules, but I'm a gadgeteer/tinker by heart and a great fan of GURPS. Taking the GURPS' Vehicles rules (which also works to build small arms), in TL 8, which would be the Tech Level of most cyberpunks scenarios, you are capable of creating gauss needle pistols. It would work like flechette weapons, but man, if you passed the DR, the target would be 'proper fucked'.

It is entirely possible!
I would like to see how you would stat it out in fact.
I am kicking around ideas myself.

//Thanks Kerenshara!

Well, here's the thing. The "needles" have to be broad enough to have some strength in shear because otherwise if they hit something marginally hard, they're going to shatter. One of the earliest defenses against APDS rounds from tanks was to embed hardened steel rods inside a softer layer such that the incoming darts would be deflected enough to cause internal forces to pass the breaking point, and the energy would then disperse across the surface of the successive armor layer.

A single needle is a pain, but it has a limit to energy because of low mass. Furthermore, it's going to be relatively vulnerable to crossing windage because of it's exceptionally broad aspect ratio relative to mass and diameter. To do the kind of "shredding" damage people expect from a "needler" you'd need to either fire a needle "packet" or have a rate of fire that supported an effectively continuous stream of needles. The gauss technology of 2070, if the existing weapon in Arsenal is to be any indication of where the technology lies, is still too slow-firing to manage a needle-stream. Therefore, you're far better off throwing a more substantial chunk of metal harder.

Look at it like this: for the same velocity (the end velocity has more to do with the weapon's engineering than the projectile's weight) needles have far less total energy aboard when they strike the target. If you have a veritable storm arrive on target, you wind up shredding it, assuming they don't bounce/shatter. But if you're only tossing a few at a time, even if they penetrate, there is a maximum amount of energy they can transfer. Now for the same RoF, you can toss bigger hunks (that can be fin stabilized in flight without problems, BTW) of material that can be given significant strength in shear as well as potentially putting in terminal guidance or a secondary payload (read: explosives) - remember, a gauss launch is even "softer" than an ETC so it's child's play to stuff in a guidance package or similar. The whole round need not be magnetic - a pair of driving rings should be sufficient if you wanted to deliver, say, a liquid agent of some kind that would perhaps atomize on contact with the air? So it's more accurate - especially at extended ranges, murder on armor, at least as vicious on unprotected targets, less succeptible to windage, less succeptible to pre-impact tumbling (tumbling inside the target: good; tumbling before you hit armor: bad), and more flexible.

Needles are a neat idea in concept at short range with the right technology, but once again to quote Rick Berman and Michael Okuda "If you could replicate a starship with the push of a button, you wouldn't need to". By the time you have mature enough gauss technology to fire a stream of needles, the approach is no longer desirable (you could be throwing a hail of moderately larger "darts" vice needles that would be far more effective overall).

Make sense?

You would be talking about the Militech M-31a1 Advanced Infantry Combat Weapon. It is a in Chrome Book (the 1st one) and looks like a rifle version of the P90 SMG. Actually, you could say the P90 looks like it since the book was out years before.

It is a binary liquid propellant weapon, meaning it mixes two liquids in the firing chamber and ignites them with an electric spark to create an explosion. The rounds and the firing fluid are each in their own container (magazine and micro tanks). This is not ETC but Liquid Propellant (LP).

An ETC gun employs an electrical pulse and a liquid working fluide which can be anything from methanol to water (though solid propellant is possible with a supporting plasma system). If using a liquid or gas, it is hit with a very high amp jolt of electricity which causes it to change state to plasma. If using solid propellant, a separate plasma chamber is required. Also, ETC weapons use CASED ammunition and can not normally be variable power. Liquid Propellant works like a gasoline engine, in that the propellant and oxidizer are mixed in the firing chamber and electrically fired by a spark (much much weaker then the spark used in an ETC). The power of each shot can be controlled by changing the amount of propellant and oxidizer added to the firing chamber. ETC are normally only possible in large weapons. LP weapons are much easier to build in hand held form.

Anyway, enough of the sidebar. The M-31a1 from CP2020 is an over and under configuration with an assault weapon atop a 10g/20mm multi weapon system. The assault weapon fires 4.5mm (50 grain) copper jacketed rounds using a fully electronic action and binary chemicals in a LP for propellant. It holds 150 rounds in the magazine along with the binary propellant to fire them, but does not have the 'dial-a-power' feature (the two LP weapons introduced in later books do however). The multi weapon system can fire 20mm grenades or 10g shotgun rounds. The weapon is very accurate and reliable, with a high rate of fire of about 600rpm.

I did up stats for it (along with just about every CP2020 weapon). Here ya go.

That's the one. It is a bullpup configuration rigle and IIRC, it had an underbarrel grenade launcher, which is why I likened it to an Ares Alpha.


Ah, you are in fact correct about the nomenclature, and for that I apologise. It's been forever since I screwed around with any of this. I don't remember there being a BINARY component to the propellants there, but you've apparently got the book right there.

The weapon I described above should have been labeled LP, but the rest of it's exactly the same. I don't know what the current status of the Army and Navy LP weapon systems is, but I think the Army's still playing with ETC for a next-generation howitzer.


OK, so what I tossed out isn't too far off, which is ammusing because I haven't seen one of the Chrome Book(s) in about ten years, and I started from the round and worked outwards to the gun. Thanks again.

No biggy and yes I have all the CP2020 books (yes all of them) on the book shelf right behind me, right next almost all of the SR books (missing a couple 1st and 2nd editions books, got all the 3rd and 4th).

As for the LP and ETC weapons being researched by the Army and Navy, LP has been in the works for the last 20+ years for use in howitzers. ETC is one of the possibilities to see use as the next Main Battle Tank main gun and under research for the last 10+ years. The battle between armor and weapons on that scale tends to favor armor. It is getting harder and harder to build main guns that can deal with upcoming and future generation armor. In fact, the Russian T90 and later tanks can handle direct hits from the current main gun on the M1A1. They are not common at all though, what with the USSR going boom while the T90 was being developed and Russia having an economic melt down.

20+ years? *does quick math on fingers* Oh, dear gods... now I feel grapping old. I remember when that was "hey, I got an idea!" stage.

*nod at the last part* last estimate I saw had the T90 being essentially an up-rated T72 (as opposed to a T80 which was a revamped T64). I didn't think they had managed to increase the armor package to QUITE such an extent. I mean, I know they improved the HEAT protection of the native front glacis as well as improving the reactive armor, but taking an APFSDSDU? Now I'm skeptical as maulk, because the reported weight of the vehicle didn't climb anywhere near what would be necessary to beef up the ballistic protection to such an extent.

I think there are still numerous possibilities that are still viable;

Pellets hurled with enough velocity have proven effective in lesser technology.
A handful of buckshot pellets held in a linear soft plastic casing
could achieve a similar effect to shotguns at a potentially longer range,
or with more punch at moderate ranges.

Bolts similar to those fired from a crossbow could be evolved for gauss rifles.
Similar to the adaptation of bow/arrow to xbow/bolt could be achieved here
using a moderate mass head with fin stabilization to off-set the moderate mass in flight,
with 2070 materials (plasteel, nanites, etc) tipping it to increase proportionate punch.

Rods even could prove to be more effective than needles!
Either rods lined up in the chamber end on end with concave/convex matching ends
or a triangular arrangement with special casing could achieve an effect
similar to bursts of fire with each SA shot fired from the weapon.

Not being as well versed in the technical aspects of projectile dynamics
makes it fairly difficult for me to do more than speculate with ideas.
But I still think it is possible in 2070.

Yeah, I'm familiar with this concept.
And yes, I'm well aware that such a needle gun would be mostly useless against armored targets but my first thought was making an alloy of tungsten and steel. They have greater resistance to deformation



My bad, I had always assumed that such a weapon would be a Full Auto weapon.



Now, your idead of a "two-ringed capsule" to carry other stuff like poisons/explosives/etc... is a GREAT idea.


Anyway, here is my suggestion of a gauss needle pistol. PEACH at will.

Name Damage AP Mode RC Ammo Availability Cost
Gauss Needle Rifle 4P(f) +2 FA 3 50© 14F 3,000

The Gauss Needle Pistol consumes both ammunition and energy to power its magnetic accelerators for each burst fired. It uses the same peak-discharge battery packs Ares' laser weapons (see Arsenal page 36) and consumes 1 power point per long burst shot and 2 power points per full burst shot. The Gauss Needle Rifle can hold one power clip or draw its energy from external satchel power packs or power backpacks.

Yes, it is a not a great weapon, but if you consider the fact that it is a pistol-sized weapon capable of firing long and full bursts, which means a possible 9P or 13P damage before counting net hits, it is not the kind of weapon you would like to be on the receiving end.

I am curious why you assume it to be Full Auto?

Here is possibly more than we need to know on "rail guns".
As an aside, I realize now that what I played with in college was probably a Coil Gun,
which is similar in principle, but radically different in practice.

I remember when I thought "What would happen if you turn a Dyson's sphere into a giant laser?" My dad declared me a tinker gnome and decided I was not allowed to play any kind of tinkerer/tech-wiz in any SF game.

Isn't that known colloquially as the Death Star?

No, a dyson sphere laser would be much, much bigger.

Because as kerenshara put it, a single needle won't do much of a damage. You have to literally turn some one into a porcupine to do any damage.

I don't think you will get normal Burst of Full Auto fire out of a Gauss weapon yet.
I do think that needle salvos could be achieved with grouped ammo and Semi-Auto fire.
Here is a suggestion

Personnel Gauss Rifle
Damage:7P AP:-4 Mode:SA RC:2 Ammo:15©+energy
w/ Porcupine needler rounds
Damage:9P(f) AP:0 Mode:SA RC:2 Ammo:15©+energy
Cost:5,000

Uses Sniper ranges for normal shot (Sport rifle for Flechette)
Does not suffer penalties as other sniper rifles for movement and use.

Most gauss weaponry halves non-smart armor. Just sayin.

By yet, you mean today's yet or SR's yet?

Anyway, I understand your argument, grouped ammo with Semi-auto fire could accomplish almost the same performance.
Something I have to think about it.

Really? I was looking for rules along those lines, but couldn't find anything specific.

That's because they tried to keep it a secret! No, I don't think that's true, but it's either that or someone's pretty goddamn stupid. Arsenal errata:

And you'll see the same text for both of the vehicle-mounted gauss weapons. There, they slipped up and actually put it in the book.

My problem - not expensive enough. And I don't even want to think about what the availability would be. As a side note, anyone using that high level a piece of tech should have distinctive style attached to them. How many people are running around with nickel slugs? =P

I saw the story on the Metalstorm in Future Weapons. You can reload the barrel, or just replace it with a new one that already has rounds preloaded into it. Also, because these are caseless rounds and need to be hooked into the electronic system, they made the rounds stackable or even individually reloaded So, this makes it no more hazardous than using/reloading a revolver.

That's because most gauss guns are vehicular weapons intended for shooting vehicles. Smart Armor is a type of vehicular armor. This would not apply for a man portable gun intended for shooting people.

I'm sorry, sir, but you're wrong. It's right there in the errata; the man-portable Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle halves all non-smart armor. Which means it wrecks people. And since it takes -4 from your halved armor, it's not even going to leave very large chunks of meat.

Wow, this has been a busy thread in my absence... all of what, ten hours?

OK.

First, there is no reason you couldn't use a "dual-ring carrier" to carry buckshot or a cluster of needles. But again, we're back to "why would you want to?" First of all, no military would sanction the needle carrier as it's a violation of the Geneva Accords (and all their follow-ons). The disintegration of the Geneva Accords would be a HUGE change in geo-political structure on a lot of levels, and I can't for the life of me remember their passing being mentioned in any of the old literature. (If somebody else can correct me on that, please do so.)

Second, Tungsten Steel penetrators? Yes, it resists deformation, but it's got some interesting responses to shearing stress under the correct circumstances. Remember way up the thread where I talked about defeating early APDS tank rounds with hardened rods in the armor? Guess what those early penetrators were made of? The problems of shear will be even worse as the aspect ratio moves from dart to needle.

Third, buckshot. There's an interesting idea, but you're going to have an issue with virtually no dispersion. One of the advantages of a shot round is that you are covering a larger footprint with a single shot, allbeit with individually smaller payloads. Now, if you worked in some kind of terminal proximity radar or airburst timer and a small bursting charge (think BattleTech LBX Autocannon) it might work, but we're back to "why bother"? We're talking man-portable weapons, not primary weapons on an MBT (Main Battle Tank). Canister rounds make sense when an MBT finds itself up against hordes of infantry clustered together, or against a group of small targets, but those "pellets" are pretty large, in fact, probably a LOT larger than any pellet that's going to come out of a man-portable gauss weapon. So if you're only shooting at one target, what's the point? Right weapon for the job - and the gauss rifle isn't it against infantry. Not at a man-portable scale anyhow.

Fourth, size. I see where you're putting up theoretical stats, but go back to my original post on the problems with miniturization of a gauss weapon. Lasers have a tough time scaling down when they're chemical based (storage tanks, pipes, recovery tanks - the byproducts are nasty). Solid state weapon lasers are idea because you don't have all that plumbing to deal with. Then your ability to scale them down has to do with the efficiency of the lasing medium and your lensing apparatus. Every bit of inefficiency means you're building up heat - lots of it. You have to dissipate the head, which means either a (bulky & heavy) cryogenic system, or some form of radiant heat sink system. Oh, and then there's power. Power storage in the 6th World is pretty handwavium with a dash of unobtanium, but it's not conceptually out of reach if you consider the developments in battery technology in the last fifteen years (NiCd to NiMH to LiIon to LiPolymer), and new nano-manufacturing techniques are being applied to capacitor technology opening up the possibility for super-capacitors. As we gradually bring the "temperature" of superconductors up closer and closer to "room temperature", all forms of electronics will produce less heat, and whatever power you DO have will be used far more efficiently in addition to having more of it in the battery/capacitor to begin with. Combined, we might just see the super-conducting super-capacitor, where you can charge from high voltage lines in seconds, discharge in a single pulse, have no meaningful cycle lifetimes, or just use it like a low drain battery. THAT is what I assume the "peak discharge battery packs" really are. All of that having been said, I don't see power, or magnet size as the real hurdle in bringing a "gauss rifle" down from assault cannon to HMG in the next 5-10 years from the one pictured in Arsenal, but going smaller, we're back to "how do you keep the blasted thing from blowing itself open every time you fire?" from the stresses of those same powerful magnets pushing against each OTHER. I just do NOT believe you're going to be able to produce a "rifle" size unit, much less a pistol, with those problems in mind. There is also the problem that there has to be a minimum distance/number of magnets in line if you're going to get the kinds of velocity/range that would make such a weapon useful. Sorry, I just don't buy it for a second.

Fifth: Halving armor. If you start putting alternate loads into the weapon, you're going to lose that benefit right off. A pellet just isn't going to have the oomph and concentrated impact force to achieve those levels of armor penetration. I would expect either a dart or possibly an vaguely egg-shaped slug to be the rule here, concentrating a massive ammount of force on the initial point of impact.

Sixth: Auto fire. It is theoretically possible if you've got SCSC (Super-conducting Super-capacitors) to cycle as fast as you like, but I imagine you're going to have heat-disipation issues in the barrel to consider if you go to a high rate-of-fire; The magnets themselves don't necessarily build up a lot of heat if they're super-conducting, but the air VERY rapidly being compressed at the nose of the accelerating round is another matter. Boyle's Law: gasses that are rapidly compressed heat up. That heat will in some measure follow in the round's wake turbulence, but some of it will transfer to the magnets themselves. They may be super-conducting even as high as desert temperatures, but add the heat of repeated and RAPID fire, and you're going to push them to the point they stop super-conducting, and then your power consumption is going to spike to hell and back, right before your weapon melts. Now, if you were in space, for example, that restriction would vanish, and your primary concern would be how quickly you could feed the beast.

Last: Dyson Sphere with a super-laser. Wicked nasty harnessing the entire luminous output of a star if you decide to focus it and point it at some poor slot. But even if you can build a Dyson Sphere around a handy star, moving the star itself is still going to be a challenge. But by that definition, it is most certainly NOT George Lucas' "Death Star", but considering what a Dyson Sphere actually IS, that term is even MORE apropriate.

I don't think I missed anything from the conversation ahead of this, but if I did let me know.

Uh huh. Except that your "cartridges" are HOW long? That's going to be one CUMBERSOME revolver to reload, hoss.

As to replacing barrels, that's highly practical for a heavy vehicle or a point-defense emplacement, but we're still talking at least SQUAD portable here, and that's going to be a monster, eclipsing even the mass and appetite of an 81mm Mortar. The Sakura Fubuki is probably the most reasonable and plausible answer, and it's firing essentially "light pistol" ammunition. Look at the size of the thing - it's right up there on SMG size. A "light rifle" scale weapon is going to be the size of a light support weapon (LMG) once you're all done. Seriously: imagine a quad barreled M-16. And the barrel length can only meaningfully be measured from the FIRST round in the stack, so while you might find an 18" / 71mm barrel on an M-16, the equivalent barrel on a MetalStorm weapon is going to be that PLUS the full length of the stack of rounds, probably another 6" / 23.5 mm at a guess. That's putting the length of the weapon around sniper rifle dimensions. Cluster four of those together and add a stock (You have to mitigate that recoil SOMEHOW), plus power source, electronics, trigger assembly... that's at least as big as an LMG by that point. And to what real benefit? MetalStorm is a niche weapon; Fixed emplacements or very heavy vehicles at the top end for point defense, area denial (rocks as a mine dispersal device), and saturation attacks; Very light and simple autofire weapons at the lowe end, like the Sakura Fubuki. There, you pack heavy firepower into a light platform that's still cheap enough to be usable, and for what it's designed to do, it's a workable solution.

Now, if you're going to replace barrels, remember somebody's got to CARRY all that extra weight, effectively eliminating one of the key theoretical benefits of MetalStorm - light weight relative to mechanically automatic weapons. A real assault rigle with selective fire capabilities is already as effective as MetalStorm in that role, and some new weapons actually change RoF in burst mode, stepping up to where the third round is gone before felt recoil reaches the firer, just like MetalStorm, while stepping back RoF to lower levels for full auto fire.

Make sense? It's possible to make some of the things you're talking about, but they aren't as practical in those "middle" roles as more conventional weapons.

i recall it being a light pistol with light pistol ammunition, light pistol range, and light pistol concealability and light pistol size

and if I may quote for you

"Yamaha Sakura Fubuki: The “Cherry-Blossom Storm� is the
flagship for Yamaha’s new line of electronic weapons that feature no
moving parts. Rather than a standard magazine, the bullets are stacked
in-line in each of the four barrels, allowing the firing of ultra-fast short
bursts. The Fubuki may only fire narrow bursts (not wide), but burst
recoil is handled like SA recoil (–1 Recoil on the second burst each
Action Phase only). Includes an integral folding stock."

this is under light pistols btw in SR4a

it's a light pistol and I was wondering when yamaha will make a heavy heavy heavy pistol version

edit: yamaha has a new line of electronic weapons coming out, so I guess it wouldn't be too unreasonable to hope that I could buy a heavier version with GM approval