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Vantive
So the only type of character I've not tinkered around with is an adept,

Recently we came across a few adepts that came flying with a katana, did some pretty nasty stuff.. But took a shotgun round to the face and didn't last much longer.

Whats good about adepts?
crazyconscript
The thing is....there arent actually that many things that CAN take a shotgun to the face and keep going. 7P base damage is going to do a fair whack of pain to anyone who is not layered in full combat body armour (which attracts attention). Even if it is reduced to stun by armour, stun damage takes you out just as effectively.
The advantage of adepts is that they can be uber-specialised in their one field, and in that they absolutely excel. Combat adepts are the narrowest, due to the power point costs of many of their necessary powers but there is some stuff that they can benefit from that even the most cybered street-sam will lack access to. For example cyber-sams cant inflict elemental damage with their punches, they dont have access to the combat sense power, they cant start beating the crap out of spirits.
Then there is the fact that magic wont set off any cyberware scanners when you are trying to infiltrate a building, and adepts can be absolutely sickeningly good at whatever they put their mind to, especially things like facework and infiltration. Combat builds are only one way to build an adept.
mmmkay
adepts are good at specializing, with street sams you pretty quickly approach your limit, but essentially with adepts there is no limit so as long as you don't waste power points on versatility you can be good at that 1 or 2 things

for instance

infiltration

because they have special powers that don't have a cyber equivalent and they can boost agi and their infiltration skill higher than street sams

having 4 IPs at chargen

it's kinda expensive to do it with street sams, but it's pretty easy with adepts

on the surface being less noticeable (with assensing this kinda goes away)

you can be a mundane human with 1 str and do more/equal damage in a punch than a 9 str troll with a sword due to critical strike

dodging stuff

it might not seem that cool, but there are numerous powers adepts can get that make them difficult to hit and they stack

hacking

it's generally skill based so adepts are good at it

mixing a little bit of cyber or bio in with the adept's specialization is very beneficial as well, it could be as simple as bone density augmentation to make your punches that much stronger or a reflex recorder here and there, but basically if you want to be really good at something you go adept with some implants

see pornomancer
Kerenshara
Honestly, it's a good question and I like the previous answers as far as they go. But assuming you read the preceeding posts, I have a suggestion:

Go back to the books (SR4A and Street Magic, Revised) and either xerox or print out (if you have the PDFs) ALL of the adept powers as well as all the metamagic powers available to adepts. Then sit down and read them. ALL of them. You'll see a bunch of things that just duplicate Bio- or CyberWare. Those are about subtlety. What I want you to focus on are the things that are UNIQUE and can't be duplicated with 'ware. THOSE are the things that really set adepts apart. Things like Combat Sense, which is absolutely invaluable in ranged combat. Even for a non-combat build, being able to dodge gunfire and indirect combat spells (or evade suppressive fire) can be the difference between a successful 'run and a dirtnap after a stay on a mortician's slab. Astral Perception can't be duplicated by 'ware, and it's an incredibly valuable tool at times.

Something to bear in mind, though: Improved Perception affects ALL perception tests, even the magical ones. Also, when taking magically powered sensory improvements that would have a rating in 'ware (Olfactory Booster, Taste Booster, Vision Enhancement, Audio Enhancement and Select Sound Filter for example), evert time your MAGic increases, your effective RTG on that ability goes up too!

And some of those Adept Metamagic powers can be a little scary. Adept Centering for Longarms (Christian Prayer) lets you come up with Pvt. Daniel Jackson from Saving Private Ryan, praying as he takes aim and hits moving targets in cover with frightening accuracy (the power lets you negate penalties - like cover and range - to your action up to your Initiation grade). Samurai can't do that, either.

If you actually sit down and just read the powers without a speciffic build in mind, you'd be amazed what kinds of possibilities start to suggest themselves to you.

(And let's not forget the possibilities of the hybrid Mystic Adept here, either.)
Lass
So why then should anyone play a Samy if the Adept has benefits beyond with the additional benefit in the low cost of imporvement?
pbangarth
Kerenshara, your points about subtlety and uniqueness are right on.

I don't understand your point about the Improved Senses increasing with Magic increases. My understanding from the attempts here on Dumpshock to interpret the vague description of this power is that for each .25 power spent the character gets the new sense or sense modification at the maximum level allowed by meta-race or technology in the BBB.

Is this not true? If not, then how do you see it working?
Mx
QUOTE (Lass @ Aug 26 2009, 05:36 PM) *
So why then should anyone play a Samy if the Adept has benefits beyond with the additional benefit in the low cost of imporvement?

Becouse for some roles a sammy is just better and cheaper at chargen then an adept.
Also adebt limitless potential is mostly theoretical, unless your game goes on for years.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Aug 26 2009, 09:36 AM) *
Kerenshara, your points about subtlety and uniqueness are right on.

I don't understand your point about the Improved Senses increasing with Magic increases. My understanding from the attempts here on Dumpshock to interpret the vague description of this power is that for each .25 power spent the character gets the new sense or sense modification at the maximum level allowed by meta-race or technology in the BBB.

Is this not true? If not, then how do you see it working?

Perhaps I misread something, but there was a statement somewhere about "if a power would have levels but isn't purchased BY level you get the effective level at your MAGic rating", though maybe I'm wrong. It only really applies to the items I called out by name. But if an Adept only has a MAGic rating of 2 (starting out) why should they get the ability at +3 or better? Furthermore, if you're using the "optional" caps on DP modifiers and total DP, then even if you get to +8 DP Mod for the ability, it's going to be useless unless you've got good [Stat + Skill] to start with. You can go either way, but I would cap it at no higher than MAGic rating.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Lass @ Aug 26 2009, 09:36 AM) *
So why then should anyone play a Samy if the Adept has benefits beyond with the additional benefit in the low cost of imporvement?

I think Mäx has the right of this, generally. But to be more explicit: Samurai are constrained only by their total nuyen on hand and their access to higher-level clinics (until they run out of ESSence, but with BioWare these days, that's not as often as it used to be); Adepts are limited by Karma (and time) to develop their abilities. Early on, both are in relatively short supply, but at higher levels, money is a LOT easier to come by than Karma, whose rate of acquisition remains about constant.

Early Game: Samurai rule
Mid Game (Initiation levels 2-4): Adepts close the gap
Late Game (Initiation 5-6): Adepts match and start to pass the Sammy.
End Game (Initiation 7+): Adepts totally outclass the Samurai, but this takes years to achieve (game AND real time)

To help the Adept out a bit, I like (and our table uses) the optional rule allowing a Power Point instead of a metamagic power at each initiation level, but that only brings the "Late Game" a bit earlier.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Lass @ Aug 26 2009, 09:36 AM) *
So why then should anyone play a Samy if the Adept has benefits beyond with the additional benefit in the low cost of imporvement?

As others have said but not quite directly: Adepts are all about being specialists in one or two particular areas (and not just in combat). Cyborgs (I hate the term "Street Samurai" when talking about a general character type) are about being generally badass in combat.

You're not going to find a Face that's better than one created as an adept, for instance. Anything mundane characters can get to bolster their social moxie, the adept can get, too, but the adept also has access to crazy things like Commanding Voice, Cool Resolve, Improved Ability and Kinesics. The single most broken and completely legal character in the game is an adept Face, in fact. On top of that, the longer the game goes on the more powerful the adept becomes. Cyborgs are limited by their Essence; once that runs out, they've all but reached their end-game. Adepts, and magicians in general, don't have that problem. They never run out of new stuff to spend their Karma and Nuyen on.

In general, adepts tend to do better in the Social, Melee and Perception areas of the game. Cyborgs tend to be better in the getting-shot-in-the-face and versatility departments.

You should also ask your GM about (or, if you're the GM, consider creating) a house rule that lets adepts buy their powers with a geasa attached for a 25% price reduction on the power. It's a rule from previous editions of the game that not only effectively work as an alphaware option for adepts, but adds TONS of flavor to them, too.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 26 2009, 10:08 AM) *
*snip good stuff*

You should also ask your GM about (or, if you're the GM, consider creating) a house rule that lets adepts buy their powers with a geasa attached for a 25% price reduction on the power. It's a rule from previous editions of the game that not only effectively work as an alphaware option for adepts, but adds TONS of flavor to them, too.

Doc, the geasa listed in the books strike me as a LOT more suitable to mojo-slingers. What kind of alternate geasa would you recommend for that?
Ol' Scratch
Take Ol' Scratch, a satyr adept I used to play. He was inspired partially by Drunken Master, so I put a Condition: Intoxicated geas on most of his melee fighting abilities. Brad Pitt's character from Snatch arguably had a Talisman geas on his, as he kissed his crucifix before he one-shotted that beefy pro boxer early in the film. An adept with a Superman-type complex might have a Time geas where some of his powers only work during the day (when he's exposed to sunlight). etc.
WyldKnight
It's already been shown how much better adept can become when they focus but people mention how the adept always surpasses the cybered character. I think thats a matter of opinion. Yes in the field their focusing on they will surpass him no question but saying they beat them all around I think is giving them to much credit. Sure if they have the time to do it maybe they could but that would take way longer then the average campaign. A mundane character doesn't need his karma to be spent on initiation, boosting his magic, and what not. He can expand his skills and stats which I have seen even the playing ground.

An example is in my second rl group I have an orc gunslinger/face but there is also a gunslinger adept. She beats me with guns no question but not by much. I throw 17 die and she throws 20 straight outta chargen. Now this may be true as the face of the group I have a social aspect to take advantage of. I was happy with my gun skills and instead I thought to boost my social skills and expand my expertise. Were about 50 karma in, maybe a bit more. Her choices of initiation and what not were good ones and she is still the better gunslinger but now my character has expanded into abilities like forgery and pilot aircraft and even got to use it on a recent mission where we stole a prop plane, loaded it with cheap explosive, and rammed it into a yakuza base. Man that was fun lol.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (WyldKnight @ Aug 26 2009, 10:53 AM) *
It's already been shown how much better adept can become when they focus but people mention how the adept always surpasses the cybered character. I think thats a matter of opinion. Yes in the field their focusing on they will surpass him no question but saying they beat them all around I think is giving them to much credit. Sure if they have the time to do it maybe they could but that would take way longer then the average campaign. A mundane character doesn't need his karma to be spent on initiation, boosting his magic, and what not. He can expand his skills and stats which I have seen even the playing ground.

An example is in my second rl group I have an orc gunslinger/face but there is also a gunslinger adept. She beats me with guns no question but not by much. I throw 17 die and she throws 20 straight outta chargen. Now this may be true as the face of the group I have a social aspect to take advantage of. I was happy with my gun skills and instead I thought to boost my social skills and expand my expertise. Were about 50 karma in, maybe a bit more. Her choices of initiation and what not were good ones and she is still the better gunslinger but now my character has expanded into abilities like forgery and pilot aircraft and even got to use it on a recent mission where we stole a prop plane, loaded it with cheap explosive, and rammed it into a yakuza base. Man that was fun lol.

So your Gunslinger/Face had access to Adept Centering and Attunement, both of which only get stronger and stronger with each initiation grade? Keeping in mind that gunfighting is one of the adept's weaker fields in the comparison (since aside from those two metamagic techniques and Improved Ability, adepts don't have anything that specifically focuses on gunfighting abilities), your example isn't a very good one. You're basically glorifying the mundane character's strengths against the adept's less-than-stellar area.

That said, you realize that you pretty much proved what everyone has basically been saying, right? That adepts are specialists who do one or two things better than anyone else, and more mundane characters are generalists.
WyldKnight
I never disagreed with them. I said their right they will win. What i was disagreeing with is it seems like their saying they always win. I was just saying since mundanes can spread their karma around and expand their skills instead of having to focus their points on something they can become more varied which in my opinion evens the playing field. The only time this isn't true is with the Pornomancer but at that point your best bet is to shoot them and hope they dont seduce your bullet mid air to turn back on you.
DireRadiant
What's crap for you may be fertilizer for someone else.

Adepts <> Cyber sammies <> Mages

Stone Paper Scissors...
WyldKnight
Heh, that basically sums it up. I like adepts and all but I like being able to buy different skills more, its all a matter of taste. It basically comes down to don't face the adept in their chosen field, fight them a different way. Though to be fair just blowing them up works in about every situation.
Traul
I don't believe in higher concealability of magic versus cyberware. This is not about rules, but about how a plausible world works. Security conception is all about worst case scenarios. A security system is only as good as its weakest spot. So it is a poor conception and a waste of money to combine good cyberware detection with poor magical protection.

The only advantage of magic is that security cannot know exactly what you are capable of until you choose to use your powers. But that doesn't prevent them from running extra background checks as soon as they spot an awakened.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 26 2009, 10:21 AM) *
Take Ol' Scratch, a satyr adept I used to play. He was inspired partially by Drunken Master, so I put a Condition: Intoxicated geas on most of his melee fighting abilities. Brad Pitt's character from Snatch arguably had a Talisman geas on his, as he kissed his crucifix before he one-shotted that beefy pro boxer early in the film. An adept with a Superman-type complex might have a Time geas where some of his powers only work during the day (when he's exposed to sunlight). etc.

Oh! So you would have the same geas apply individually to each power, but breaking it would affect only those powers feeding off the same geas? That would make it a LOT easier to adjudicate as well as making it a core quirk/schtick for the character. Actually, I like that a lot. On the other hand, I don't think I wouldn't allow it for things that should "always" be on like senses. But for active things? How about "meditation" where you have to make a [WILlpower+CHArisma] test against a threshold of 2 or 3 to "center" before doing something? "Let it all go, Neo; Fear, doubt... free your mind." Then jump between two skyscrapers. How would YOU set up that "focus" mechanic? I need to go look at the rules for the "meditation" trial at Initiation.

toolbox
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 26 2009, 07:08 AM) *
Cyborgs (I hate the term "Street Samurai" when talking about a general character type) are about being generally badass in combat.

Don't forget that "cyborg" means something very specific in Shadowrun - it's the proper term for what people usually refer to as a jarhead. SR4A, anyway, is pretty explicit about "street samurai" being a catch-all term for an augmented combat badass:
QUOTE (SR4A p.19)
Street samurai are physically enhanced combat monsters. With implanted cyber-
ware, bioware, and combat skills, they strive to be the quickest, meanest, and strongest
killing machines on the streets. Many of them cybernetically boost their refexes to increase
their action and reaction speeds, or boost their strength so that they can infict more
damage. Many are also lethal with frearms, and almost all have a smartlink system installed
for increased precision in shooting. Some fght for honor, some because they get paid for
it, and others because they are insane enough to go up against anything. Street samurai
is a catch-all term - some characters may identify themselves as bodyguards, mercenaries,
assassins, or some similar label, but in general a character based around physical skills and
non-magical augmentation can be called a street samurai - even if some of them don't like
the implication.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Traul @ Aug 26 2009, 11:35 AM) *
The only advantage of magic is that security cannot know exactly what you are capable of until you choose to use your powers. But that doesn't prevent them from running extra background checks as soon as they spot an awakened.

All it takes is masking and not having any powers activate to demonstrate how innocent you can look as an adept versus a cyborg.

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 26 2009, 11:35 AM) *
Oh! So you would have the same geas apply individually to each power, but breaking it would affect only those powers feeding off the same geas? That would make it a LOT easier to adjudicate as well as making it a core quirk/schtick for the character. Actually, I like that a lot. On the other hand, I don't think I wouldn't allow it for things that should "always" be on like senses. But for active things? How about "meditation" where you have to make a [WILlpower+CHArisma] test against a threshold of 2 or 3 to "center" before doing something? "Let it all go, Neo; Fear, doubt... free your mind." Then jump between two skyscrapers. How would YOU set up that "focus" mechanic? I need to go look at the rules for the "meditation" trial at Initiation.

Yeah, that's basically how geasa-limited powers worked for adepts originally. They were more like toggles than anything.

For your scenario, the Condition geas is probably most fitting. Particularly if you have the Adept Centering metamagic (thus Condition: Centering [Meditation]), or even just Condition: Meditation if you don't. Unless you're in a position where you can use that metamagic, you cannot use Great Leap or whatever other power you have linked to it. So if you're in a gunfight or something and can't really stop to focus, you're SOL.

Note that the rules for Condition are kinda lame. It states that as long as you fulfill the geas at some point during a 24-hour period, it's fulfiilled all day. Doesn't get much more boring that that. Just takes a little house rule to make it a more proactive geas... though ones like Fasting fit in fine as is.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (toolbox @ Aug 26 2009, 01:29 PM) *
Don't forget that "cyborg" means something very specific in Shadowrun - it's the proper term for what people usually refer to as a jarhead. SR4A, anyway, is pretty explicit about "street samurai" being a catch-all term for an augmented combat badass:

Both of those can kiss my ass. smile.gif
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 26 2009, 01:42 PM) *
Yeah, that's basically how geasa-limited powers worked for adepts originally. They were more like toggles than anything.

For your scenario, the Condition geas is probably most fitting. Particularly if you have the Adept Centering metamagic (thus Condition: Centering [Meditation]), or even just Condition: Meditation if you don't. Unless you're in a position where you can use that metamagic, you cannot use Great Leap or whatever other power you have linked to it. So if you're in a gunfight or something and can't really stop to focus, you're SOL.

Note that the rules for Condition are kinda lame. It states that as long as you fulfill the geas at some point during a 24-hour period, it's fulfiilled all day. Doesn't get much more boring that that. Just takes a little house rule to make it a more proactive geas... though ones like Fasting fit in fine as is.

See, I was thinking about having to test to activate, but something simple - like the on-the-spot meditation test...
Ol' Scratch
You can always do that, too. But I don't think its in the spirit of the geasa rules to require a test. Afterall, you don't need to make a test to use a Talisman or make a Gesture. You just have to make sure the condition can be met. Tests are better left to things like Adept Centering, which is partially why I would have linked it to your particular example.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Aug 26 2009, 01:55 PM) *
You can always do that, too. But I don't think its in the spirit of the geasa rules to require a test. Afterall, you don't need to make a test to use a Talisman or make a Gesture. You just have to make sure the condition can be met. Tests are better left to things like Adept Centering, which is partially why I would have linked it to your particular example.

Well, that's why I wanted it as a fairly simple (and easy) test to make. After all, you can't take somebody's center away from them, or keep them from reaching it (in theory) like you can for a lot of conditions. And it's a big discount there on price, Doc. It also encourages them to keep non-physical stats up.
Zen Shooter01
Whenever this adept vs. samurai question comes up, I always say the same thing. At chargen, you can easily use Improved Reflexes, Killing Hands, Critical Strike, and Elemental Strike, possibly combined with the Martial Arts rules from ARS, to get a character who can walk straight through a pat down, a radar sensor, and a metal detector, and still put his fist right through both Immunity to Normal Weapons and Regeneration with 7P fire damage. Samurai can't do that.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Aug 26 2009, 02:10 PM) *
Whenever this adept vs. samurai question comes up, I always say the same thing. At chargen, you can easily use Improved Reflexes, Killing Hands, Critical Strike, and Elemental Strike, possibly combined with the Martial Arts rules from ARS, to get a character who can walk straight through a pat down, a radar sensor, and a metal detector, and still put his fist right through both Immunity to Normal Weapons and Regeneration with 7P fire damage. Samurai can't do that.

Um, bone density augmentation doesn't show on a cyberscanner, and can give you the same results. Just saying.
McAllister
Except for bypassing ItNW, Regeneration and (arguably) half armor, yes, you're right.
McAllister
Is there any reason not to take Mystic Adept instead of Adept, and pick up Counterspelling 4? If you just put all your Magic into adept powers, seems like a pretty useful expenditure of 25 BP or 32 karma. For extra cheese, use one of those initiations for shielding.
Zen Shooter01
Bone density augmentation doesn't set things on fire, either.
mmmkay
killing hands bypasses ItNW

elemental strike bypasses half armor

magical attacks cannot be regenerated

so where are the exceptions?

edit: oh nvm, we were talking about bone density augmentation

incidentally I had the idea to get a mystic adept fomori with astral hazing and high counterspelling a week or two ago

obviously it's not perfectly maximized as counterspelling can be modded with aptitude, mentor spirits (haven't checked but probably), foci, specialization, etc.

and willpower/body could be further increased for lulz
remmus
well naturally we have to see beyond rules and such and look at logic here, corps troopers that holds up a street samurai is naturally going to assume he has a concealed cyberweapon somewhere and would have at least 5 guys point a gun at him at all times.

A adept tho looks just like your run of the mill person and so ones the adept throws his gun to the floor most guards will go "ha I got you" and walk up to press there gun against the adepts face or chest only to get a suprice "FALCON PUNCH!" :3
Mx
QUOTE (McAllister @ Aug 26 2009, 10:46 PM) *
Is there any reason not to take Mystic Adept instead of Adept, and pick up Counterspelling 4? If you just put all your Magic into adept powers, seems like a pretty useful expenditure of 25 BP or 32 karma. For extra cheese, use one of those initiations for shielding.

Well there's the part where you can't alloce all of your magic to adept powers and then there's the part where most gm wouldn't allow a mystic adept with only one point allocated for spellcasting and no other magical skills except counterspellin nor any spells.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (remmus @ Aug 26 2009, 02:31 PM) *
A adept tho looks just like your run of the mill person and so ones the adept throws his gun to the floor most guards will go "ha I got you" and walk up to press there gun against the adepts face or chest only to get a suprice "FALCON PUNCH!" :3


For the record any guard that does this to anyone is a moron and would never do so. Once you have control of a threatening situation you never sacrifice mobility. Any guard who's had basic training to be issued a pistol is going to have the surrendered adept get down on their knees facing away from them cross their legs and thread their fingers behind their head in the "execution position" there is no reason ever for a person with a firearm to ever come close to you to put their gun to your face.

For my part I actually find adepts to be a bit too strong especialyl witht he capabilities bioware gives them for minimal essence cost unless street sams have access to Deltaware at chargen or soon after they start out behind a curve they are never going t close on a dedicated adept.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (McAllister @ Aug 26 2009, 02:46 PM) *
Is there any reason not to take Mystic Adept instead of Adept, and pick up Counterspelling 4? If you just put all your Magic into adept powers, seems like a pretty useful expenditure of 25 BP or 32 karma. For extra cheese, use one of those initiations for shielding.

Well, other than the little part where it says you're supposed to put at least one magic point into "spellcasting", nothing. Now, remember, there's a key item on a Mystic Adept:

"Spellcasting" is essentially a "power" like any other, whose rating is = to the number of points you sink into it 1:1. What this results in is an effective Magician MAGic score used in all the casting/counterspelling/etc dice rolls. Now, it says for all the MAGic Active skills that you must have a MAGic score >0 to take them but they aren't open to Adepts. OK, that says to me (old argument from another thread) that you can't take Counterspelling or any of those other skills unless you took at LEAST one point in "Spellcasting" as a power. Then you're rolling 4 Counterspelling + 1 MAGic to defend; Better than naked WILlpower or a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, but nothing to brag about either. I recommend going with at LEAST 2 points in so you can overcast a F3 spell, minimum needed to beat electronics OR thresholds if you decide to start casting. (Face it, if you can cast, there are DOZENS of relatively low Force spells that are damned handy. Fashion at even F2 is changing the color of your clothing while on the 'run from the Star - or worse, KE - and Makeover can redo hair, add/remove makeup and so forth.)
remmus
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 26 2009, 10:46 PM) *
For the record any guard that does this to anyone is a moron and would never do so. Once you have control of a threatening situation you never sacrifice mobility. Any guard who's had basic training to be issued a pistol is going to have the surrendered adept get down on their knees facing away from them cross their legs and thread their fingers behind their head in the "execution position" there is no reason ever for a person with a firearm to ever come close to you to put their gun to your face.


maybe so but atleast they go within arms reach to make sure you don´t have the time to try and pick up your gun again, and distant strike can take care of that, or if your GM allows martial arts from Arsenal, the Krav Maga style is perfect to literally turn the gun around on the guard
McAllister
QUOTE (Mäx @ Aug 26 2009, 04:40 PM) *
Well there's the part where you can't alloce all of your magic to adept powers and then there's the part where most gm wouldn't allow a mystic adept with only one point allocated for spellcasting and no other magical skills except counterspellin nor any spells.

Ok, the GM might give me that "you're an idiot" look, but it never says you need a Magic point for mana-based magic. In fact, the following sentence from p.195 of SR4A argues otherwise: "Characters who wish to become mystic adepts HAVE THE OPTION OF splitting their Magic between spellcasting and conjuring or physical abilities." I added the emphasis.

EDIT: I hate to disagree with you, Kerenshara, but Magic never factors into Counterspelling. Here's a better argument: "Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills." It's true that Counterspelling never uses Magic in its rolls, but I'll accept the argument that you can't used Magic-based skills (such as Counterspelling) with 0 points in Magic.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (remmus @ Aug 26 2009, 02:52 PM) *
maybe so but atleast they go within arms reach to make sure you don´t have the time to try and pick up your gun again, and distant strike can take care of that, or if your GM allows martial arts from Arsenal, the Krav Maga style is perfect to literally turn the gun around on the guard



No, they have you back away from the weapon you have just dropped or put down or they have you kick it away. A person with a firearm NEVER comes within arms reach of a person who is a threat. Fail to comply , gunshot. If you make a threatening move gun shot. Krav for all it's usefulness is predicated on a couple of factors, either that you have no other options or that your opponent is already within striking distance. If your having to defend yourself against a guy with a gun and all you've got is your bare hands your having a bad day.

DireRadiant
Guards that smart aren't guards anymore. They get safer jobs.
LurkerOutThere
At no point did I ever say that any thing was the smart thing to do, they are the non suicidally moronic thing to do.
remmus
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 26 2009, 11:27 PM) *
At no point did I ever say that any thing was the smart thing to do, they are the non suicidally moronic thing to do.


still a street sam is more likly to be gunned down just for being a hazzle to keep lockt up, a adept can use a few tricks to escape later, plus armour aint so hard to wear with armoured clothing so I rather risk taking a round to the chest and distant strike the guard then forced into a maximum security cell.
Critias
QUOTE (Lass @ Aug 26 2009, 10:36 AM) *
So why then should anyone play a Samy if the Adept has benefits beyond with the additional benefit in the low cost of imporvement?

No, no, no. You've got it backwards.

This is a "boohoo, Adepts suck compared to Sammies" thread, not a "boohoo, Sammies suck compared to Adepts thread." You've got to toss around the right gripes in the right threads. It's vitally important we all complain about the right thing being overpowered/underpowered at the right time, so that we can then claim the writers aren't listening when they don't scurry to fix things.

grinbig.gif
X-Kalibur
Critias is OP, nerf plz, kthx.

Something like that, then? wink.gif
Kerenshara
QUOTE (McAllister @ Aug 26 2009, 03:58 PM) *
Ok, the GM might give me that "you're an idiot" look, but it never says you need a Magic point for mana-based magic. In fact, the following sentence from p.195 of SR4A argues otherwise: "Characters who wish to become mystic adepts HAVE THE OPTION OF splitting their Magic between spellcasting and conjuring or physical abilities." I added the emphasis.

EDIT: I hate to disagree with you, Kerenshara, but Magic never factors into Counterspelling. Here's a better argument: "Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills." It's true that Counterspelling never uses Magic in its rolls, but I'll accept the argument that you can't used Magic-based skills (such as Counterspelling) with 0 points in Magic.

Emphasis mine.

OK, let me rephrase that...

If you fail to put ANY poins into "spellcasting", then you by definition 0 MAGic for the purposes of the following restriction:

SR4A, P. 122: Magical Active Skills
Unless otherwise noted in the description, only characters with the Magician or Mystic Adept quality and a Magic attribute of 1 or greater may take or use Magic skills. The use of Magical skills is described in "The Awakened World", p. 176.

Counterspelling on the following page DOES list MAGic as the relevant stat, and does NOT "otherwise note" as an exception to the rule.

Are we on the same page now?

Glyph
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 26 2009, 12:46 PM) *
For my part I actually find adepts to be a bit too strong especialyl witht he capabilities bioware gives them for minimal essence cost unless street sams have access to Deltaware at chargen or soon after they start out behind a curve they are never going t close on a dedicated adept.

An adept with two points worth of bioware is fearsome, but with the options from the newer books, street samurai have caught up some. When you combine some of the goodies from Augmentation with the restricted gear quality from Runner's Companion, you will find that street samurai can be a lot tougher, too. And they are definitely more versatile. They always seem to have the room for higher Edge, or that longarms skill as well as pistols, or that extra Attribute point - adepts can be awesome at one or two things, but when you spread out more, the street samurai starts to be more dominant.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (McAllister @ Aug 26 2009, 02:58 PM) *
Ok, the GM might give me that "you're an idiot" look, but it never says you need a Magic point for mana-based magic. In fact, the following sentence from p.195 of SR4A argues otherwise: "Characters who wish to become mystic adepts HAVE THE OPTION OF splitting their Magic between spellcasting and conjuring or physical abilities." I added the emphasis.

EDIT: I hate to disagree with you, Kerenshara, but Magic never factors into Counterspelling. Here's a better argument: "Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character one point to use with Magic-based skills." It's true that Counterspelling never uses Magic in its rolls, but I'll accept the argument that you can't used Magic-based skills (such as Counterspelling) with 0 points in Magic.



Counterspelling + Magic is used to counter spells that are in place...
Counterspelling + Resistance Stat (Body or Willpower) is used to counter incomming Spells...
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Aug 26 2009, 07:02 PM) *
Emphasis mine.

OK, let me rephrase that...

If you fail to put ANY poins into "spellcasting", then you by definition 0 MAGic for the purposes of the following restriction:

SR4A, P. 122: Magical Active Skills
Unless otherwise noted in the description, only characters with the Magician or Mystic Adept quality and a Magic attribute of 1 or greater may take or use Magic skills. The use of Magical skills is described in "The Awakened World", p. 176.

Counterspelling on the following page DOES list MAGic as the relevant stat, and does NOT "otherwise note" as an exception to the rule.

Are we on the same page now?



While I agree with you the rule is a bit vague since the magic put towards your physical adept powers is still a magic attribute.
McAllister
Grumble... you're right, I should let it go. I like to go to sleep at night knowing RAI and I are still on speaking terms.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 26 2009, 09:18 PM) *
An adept with two points worth of bioware is fearsome, but with the options from the newer books, street samurai have caught up some. When you combine some of the goodies from Augmentation with the restricted gear quality from Runner's Companion, you will find that street samurai can be a lot tougher, too. And they are definitely more versatile. They always seem to have the room for higher Edge, or that longarms skill as well as pistols, or that extra Attribute point - adepts can be awesome at one or two things, but when you spread out more, the street samurai starts to be more dominant.

Absolutely true, on each count. It just reinforces the "Samurai as generalist" vs. "Adept as specialist" paradigm.

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 26 2009, 10:08 PM) *
While I agree with you the rule is a bit vague since the magic put towards your physical adept powers is still a magic attribute.

In the original SR4 Erata, they cleared it up at one point making it abundantly and crystal clear that they were effectively different stats whenever it came to rolling dice. I need to go back through SR4A and see how the wording morphed in the other areas, but I can see it specifically being set up like that to KEEP the Munchkinism to a minimum on that score. "I took Counterspelling (Combat) 6 (+2), but I have 0 MAGic available for Magic-based skills. I roll more dice in defense than the mage has to hit me with. I eat mages." All I am saying is put ONE point in it and there's no question at all. Otherwise NOBODY would EVER take Adept is they could do math or had fought a Mage. 5 BP / 10 Karma to allow you to take Counterspelling? Drek yes! That's less some of the "magical feature" Qualities out of Street Magic! At max (and it WILL be at max if you're going this approach - admit it, it's pure Munchkinism), you're talking 9+6+2=17 dice to resist physical combat spells without even going to geneware or qualities. With both you could get that to 18+, and on WILlpower resists you're still at 7+6+2 = 13 dice without a quality. Throw in metagenics for giggles and the Mage is going to have to be a high level initiate to hurt you. But wait! Now as a Mystic Adept you can take Shielding!

Come on, I can appreciate good mim-maxing, and even occasionally stand in awe of stinky cheese, but that's just Munchkin (and not in a funny "I kick down the door!" then "loot the room" way).
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