Essence is described as life force and the wholeness of the body. And those who have their Essence reduced to 0 will die, of course.

So how exactly would one role-play the levels BETWEEN 0 and 6 Essence?

There's no mechanical penalties for the mundane character for having a reduced Essence (as long as it's above 0), but I would suspect that as a person's essence gets lower, they feel less energetic and look less lively. Does that sound about right? How would YOU role-play a character as he slowly drops down in Essence?

Actually, essence is only a gamebalancing tool. You can however take several appropriate negative qualities in the BBB and in Augmentation, which then should be roleplayed accordingly.

From the fluff cybered characters tend to be less emotionally attached than "whole" ones. On the other hand you can just as well play a coldhearted bastard without even a datajack or a socially competent 0.1 essence cybermonster. Neither style should be penalized in any way.

There is one drawback from 'Ware. Visible augmentations tend to incur dice pool modifers to social tests - either positive or negative depending on the crowd and the test.

I would role-play it as Sunday Afternoon, forever.

I don't get what you are trying to say, knasser.

Ah, okay. Perhaps a bit cryptic. I see Essence Loss as something you must be able to feel or sense in some way when it is drained. I know there's a physical vector for most forms of Essence Loss so you would notice the vampire biting you and the blood loss, etc. But I think there has to be something else as well. A character surely can't go: "Well, bit of blood loss last month" x5 and then suddenly without warning "Hey, this feels different this time, I think I'm... urk!". I think there has to be an in-game way of feeling your Essence being taken from you.

I picture it as a kind of listlessness, a draining of life force or vital spark. Sort of the feeling you get on a Sunday afternoon when you've eaten, it's raining outside and there's nothing particular much to do nor energy to do it. Only, that feeling never quite goes away.

Or perhaps there's a growing death wish, a sense that death is near and that you're starting to welcome it on some subconcious level, perhaps leading you to want to be drained more and more each time.

Hmmmm. Looking at this explanation, I think it's totally reasonable that you should have got that from my original post.

K.

That's one possibility, and an intriguing one.

Of course, there's countles other ways how to portray a character with low Essence.
As has been rightfully mentioned, the negative effects of all but the most in-your-face 'ware (custom-designed cyberskulls, additional eyes and so on) are purely up to the individual player and it is perfectly possible, rules-legal and plausible to design a character who is one step of dying from Essence loss, but able to cope with the effects, to integrate his 'ware into his self-perception and maintain his implants regularly to make sure he doesn't suffer physical effects such as TLE-x.
In the 2070s, where the initial techno shock of cyberware has worn off and cybersurgery has advanced to a point where many risks associated with the more invasive implants have been reduced, one could live a normal, healthy live near zero Essence.

But that's not the point of this thread, right?
We want the negative examples.
The dark underside of the transhumanist promise.

Most people here would probably agree that the main adverse effect of excessive augmentation is alienation.
First and foremost alienation from oneself.
You do not wake up in the body you where born with anymore.
These are not your hands, this is not your skin and these are not your muscles flexing beneath it.
It's something else, something inhuman and alien, something that did not grow and mature, but was manufactured.
You have replaced your natural self with a product, feeling metal and ceramics where there used to be flesh and bones.
You have paid people to cut you open, tear out your organs and replace them with something more efficient.
Seems the old you wasn't good enough.

As well, you're alienated from your surroundings.
You do not see the world the way you used to, literally.
Your cybereyes send pictures to the brain that are -if only slightly- different from what your meat eyes had shown you, your new ears bring out undertones in the voices of old acquaintances you where not able to make out before.
People seem to move slower now that your reflexes work so fast.
You can barely tolerate it, always having to wait for what seems to be minutes until they catch up with you.
Their weaknes and frailty annoys you, the way they their faces twitch when you shake their hands, their smug, condescending glances when they notice the slight tremors in your muscles, their slack-jawed, doggish admiration when they see you move with your unnatural grace, like a stalling aircraft or a racecar, a machine that could kill them before they even notice you have entered the room.
They'd never know what hit them, they're so slow, so weak.

You wonder wether they could make the choices you had to made, replacing a part of your being to compete, sacrificing yourself to stay on top and make a living in this world.

Sometimes they ask what it feels like, as if you ever could explain to someone who hasn't taken the same steps, someone who is still sheltered in the cozy, save, sanitized corporate pocket universe that protects them from the insight and the inevitable shock that would ensue if they would truly grasp the asphalt djungle just outside their arcologie's doorways.
And the people -or what is left of them- who live there.

You know that feeling when you are at work/school/anything else like that?
When you lose all sense of purpose, fun, joy, everything that makes you want to live?
When you start asking:"why? more specifically, why ME? . . Where's a bottle of Alcohol when you need it?"
That's how i picture essence loss feeling.
With Vampires it's different, people can actually become addicted to the suckers.
And to implants, but that's more to the power rush of being able to do something new and exiting for a while, which simply offsets the low of the essence loss. And when the docs start telling you "No can do, won't fit in anymore, not enough left to support it" then you go into withdrawl and get hit with the whole loss at once

I think it realy depends, and the Awakened are going to feel "initial" ESSence loss (first couple points) a lot more than a mundane. As you get below 1.0 ESSence, Runner's Companion suggested a couple of apropriate social negative qualities. I think it's going to be progressive, with the first point or two having a LOT less psychological impact (Which is what you're actually asking about) than once you get to the bottom of the barrel. For those who don't remember the old fluff in 1st Ed, Awakened characters were described as feeling pain around their implants whenever they summoned their MAGic. I imagine that's gotten a little better, and higher grades of chrome are going to be a better "fit" than standard models (or heavens help you, second hand 'ware). Bioware likewise would be less disruptive as it is still living material.

That's my take on it, anyhow. Your actual mileage may vary.

I don't buy the social modificators, and as long as you don't chose to take the negative qualities or use cybermancy or cyborgs, you are home free.
So i have Cyber-Eyes, Datajack, implanted Comlink, Move by wire or something else like that.
Nothing you can really see that is out of the place, yet somehow you KNOW i am a machine monster and treat me accordingly?
I call bullshit and demand the same for MAgicans with initation levels.

I'd probably insist on somebody picking up one of the negative qualities under 0.5 ESSence remaining, especially at CharGen where they could get points back for it.

As to social mods, if it's invisible, their reactions shouldn't be particularly affected (excepting the afoementioned negative qualities) but I can see a small negative modifier to YOUR rolls as your ability to empathise is reduced by lots and LOTS of 'ware. 0.5 remaining ESSense is really, really low. That's not even a snack to a vampire. *grin* And remember, Stahl, SR4 differs markedly fron SR3, so the mods I'm talking about may not be as severe as the equivalents in SR3.

I dont like any of where this is going. People's reactions are going to be entirely subjective based on how the individual feels about the cyber. One guy may go into full-blown cyber-psychosis and the other will be like "this is the coolest shit since sliced bread" his entire life.

For "normal" E loss, like "I got cyber at chargen," I don't RP it, and I don't expect it to be RPd.

For getting hit by a critter power or something, I might toss of a quick "color drains from his/her/my face and he/she/I look almost haunted for a moment" but that's about it.

The only time I think you might have some reason to bother a whole lot is down in the sub-1 on to cyberzombie levels.

That's just cause I don't consider it something that a character wouldn't just get used to after a while. I'd welcome someone playing it up a bit, but really it's just not a primary focus in my games. I don't, however, see E as purely mechanical, as just a game balance thing. I don't even think that's supportable by anyone that has read the books at all. *shrug*

*grumbles* yeah, probably . . i still don't like it. reeks of awakened characters being preferred again . .


The only one who really showed any signs of cyber-psychosis(not normal psychosis, mind you, most of the characters do show this to some extent) was in the german novel shelly, where the highly cybered up guy gets irrational fears, irrational fear that he might be getting a cyber psychosis, irrational fear of his irrational fear of getting a cyber psychosis. generally being concerned with his body acting faster than he can think in certain cases, especially when his skillwires step in and he sees his hands doing things he has no idea how to do at all.
But all the Ware Mentioned to be in his body doesn'T even get over 4 points of essence and not over 3 points of bio in SR3 terms . .

I think how people react to low Essense will be a very individual thing. Some will adjust to it with little problem, while others will suffer physical or mental stress - for which they now have numerous negative qualities. I prefer that way, myself. The people who don't think it would affect their characters don't have to deal with it, and those who want to play up the mental problems or physical deterioration can get the appropriate qualities and knock themselves out.

A company man brought up in an environment where transhumanism is the norm would probably have no difficulties adjusting to his augmentations. Despite having a fractional Essence due to extensive, but discrete, mods, he could sling beers and talk sports with all of the other employees at the local watering hole. A tribal warrior who has to get a cyberhand, though, might feel phantom limb syndrome, have nightmares about his monstrous metal hand detaching itself and strangling him, and might be unable to approach a girl in a bar because he feels like such a freak. A street samurai might resent having to sell bits and pieces of himself to get that edge over the rest of the gutter trash. The feral street kid from the barrens, though, might not even notice her dwindling Essence, because she is already an emotionally crippled psychotic.

I do think that people's reactions to their 'ware, and their reaction to their magical power (agree with Stahlseele there), can be great roleplaying hooks. I played a heavily chromed ork who had all kinds of 'ware, but the 'ware he liked the least was his mnemonic enhancer, because in his line of work, recalling what you did last week in vivid detail was not at all a blessing. I played an adept who took her improved combat ability in stride, but was a bit scared when she got sustenance and multi-tasking. Suddenly she only needs one meal and three hours of sleep a day, and can watch three trid shows at once. Scary.

So yeah, there are all kinds of possibilities. I would hate to see it all reduced to some rule, though. My experience, with things like horror checks in Ravenloft, is that they detract from roleplaying.

I wouldn't call it scary. I'd call it about damn time.

I figure that it is more like an ache that you can't really feel per say, but it's there all the same, most people cope and even tell themselves that they don't feel a thing but it's still there in the back of their minds and in their dreams.

And why is everyone going to be on the Twilight Angst Emo Bandwagon?

Maybe the person feels BETTER that he got implants. Maybe he likes seeing at night or seeing heat. Maybe he loves being able to hear more.

Maybe that Chaos mage feels that with his 'ware that he is a better mage because he will survive while "purists" are lying dead because they were too damn slow.


Honestly people, if you want to play an emo "OMGWTFBBQ!!!! I've lost my vital Essence! Oh, Noes!!!11!!", then that's fine, just let the rest of us play the idea that getting the augmentation makes their life easier and doesn't cause pain to mages. *looking at you Kerenshara#*


# == I know that you're quoting SR1, but I never saw that. It still makes no sense.

I think Kerenshara refers to the Secrets of Power trilogy where Sam Verner experienced severe headaches whenever he used his datajack.
He got the implant prior to discovering that he was a dog shaman.
AFAIR, the pain was related to using his 'ware, not his magic, though.

In any canon sources, however (i don't rate novels as canon), this never came up.
One could, of course, bring up such issues as psychosomatic symptoms.
It's easy to imagine that mages, whith the widespread bias against ware among the Awakened, could suffer such conseqences on a case-by-case basis.

As far as what you call emo is concerned, the topic of this thread is how to roleplay the negative aspects of Essence loss.
So the millions of satisfied customers who do the sensible thing and enjoy their night vision, decreased need for sleep, increased IQ and so on do not concern us here.

It's not about the people who can cope with low Essence, it's about those who who have trouble adjusting to their augmentations, probably because they where opting for the 'ware merely out of professional neccessity, probably because their augmentation habit stems from deep rooted self worth problems that did not get better by cramming cyber in their bodies, probably because they didn't expect that they just can't get used to it.

KCKitsune, well if you notice I'm one of the people that is on the cyber all the way bandwagon, but even so I can't help but imagine that ripping out pieces of your soul is going to cause some negative effects. The question to ask is whether or not the price you pay is worth the benefits you gain. Personally I think the answer is yes, the shear power that cybereyes and datajacks give people is worth a vague ache that can't quite be defined and perhaps some bad dreams.

Go up to what I was actually saying: the first few points lost shouldn't have any penalties associated with them. You're not significantly impacted. I see it as a geometric kind of thing. As you approach 0.00 ESSense, I see the curve skyrocketing in terms of dissociation. Look at the 'borg fluff! Even being in a mobile realistic anthroform, it's difficult to adjust, which is why they are playing games with kids - KIDS! - brains, because they have less of a sense of "loss" and are able to "grow" into their inhuman universe. Some people may LOVE the level of godliness they experience at 0.01 ESSense, but I would bet (we're talking fluff wise and real-world psychobabble) that those people were already a bit disfunctional to begin with that true detachment from the human condition makes them happy. And this isn't about "being happy"... well the OP might have been. But the part I have seen a couple people take exception with me for (and you're welcome to do so) I was speciffically addressing myself to the social interractions and penalies inherent in losing extremely large amounts of ESSense.

You want some Crunchy Bits^TM so you know which page I am on, generally? How about this as a rough guideline:

3.00-6.00 ESSense - No penalties or noticable changes.
2.00-2.99 ESSense - Slight distancing in interactions, perhaps increasingly seeking the company of other highly cybered individuals: their "own kind".
1.00-1.99 ESSense - Increased tendency toward social withdrawal, quirks begin to manifest.
0.50-0.99 ESSense - Penalty of -1 on some social interactions due to widening gulf emotionally between the individual and the rest of (meta)humanity.
0.01-0.49 ESSense - Begin checking for Negative Emotional, Mental, and Social qualities, -1 or greater penalty on many interactions socially.

That's just a first pass, but it's kind of how I view augmentation. Notice, there is NO "crunch" above 1.00 ESSense. I'm pretty certain that fits approximately within the text in Augmentation where the subject is covered, but it might also be Runner's Companion.

And it's NOT an "Awakened are favored again". Even amongst the Awakened (and everybody really, except Technomancers), taking up to a single point (or even as much as two) is actually commonplace. It is entirely too helpful day-to-day to have a DNI interface permanently connected to your central nervous system, or the extra convenience (or fun) a little chrome can bring. Implanted comlink or even SimModule means you can listen to your music anywhere and control your play lists with a thought; Tell me most people with their iPods welded to their person someplace these days wouldn'y JUMP at the chance to be able to do that! Watch movies in the eqivalent of 128" screens with infinite effective resolution, contrast and refresh? The only people I see COMMONLY shunning any and all sorts of augmentation are going to be those whose magical tradition culturally shuns augmentation (stereotypical NAN shaman for example) or again, Technomancers... ok and a few neo-Ludites as well. It could be argued that given the nature of life in the 2070's a LITTLE chrome can actually help you BETTER interact with those around you socially. But like I said, as you approach the bottom, things get a little harder on the psyche, or if you believe: the soul. That's in fluff and crunch over and over: when the body dies, if you're watching in astral, you can watch the spirit depart, and Cybermancy is about compelling/fooling the spirit into remaining in the flesh. Regardless of your personal beliefs regarding a soul, the game UAW (Universe As Written) clearly supports the existence of a soul, and ESSense beinng a big part of that equation.

If you choose to run a table where ESSense is just a score keeper or a place holder, then that's entirely up to you; I feel, however, that the original (and current , based on recent fluff up to Seattle 2072) writers support having SOME kind of detrimental side-effects to excessive augmentation.

Got a copy of the BBB 1st Ed handy? Read the description of the Burned-out Mage. IIRC it talked about the implants burnginwhen they cast magic. If I am mis-remembering the exact source, there was one of the books had a short piece that mentioned that.

KCKitsune, read Cybertechnology. You can pick it up for next to nothing.

Shadowrun was originally much more heavily dystopian than the current line of books. This has been softened as time goes on to sell the game to people that don't have a cyberpunk foundation, a solid "80s" mindset, etc. But within the tenets of the game, from its inception, getting 'wared up to the max means losing some of your "humanity."

Losing essence == losing humanity == bad.

It's just how it is. You can ignore it, but you can't stomp through a thread saying that folks that are playing up the dystopian view on getting cyber/losing essence are "doing it wrong" and "jumping on the emo bandwagon." Well, you can, I guess, but it doesn't make as much sense as you think.

And besides, I don't remember anybody ripping this thread off the site, barging into your living room, and slamming it down on the table decreeing "THIS IS HOW YOU WILL PLAY."

I'm not sure if I dislike "emo" or "angsty" more.

It's right up there with "wimpy" I suppose. But that's another thread, entirely.

I find it mildly amusing because of how much Shadowrun predates the current "emo" thing.

I kind of agree that there is an "awakened are favored" bias, if awakened characters don't get similar drawbacks. If someone is an adept with high Magic, I could see them having the same kind of disdain for the slow, puny meatbags that comprise regular metahumanity. Mages have ample opportunity to develop mental aberrancies, too, from channeling raw energy through their bodies (is it painful and damaging? Or is it an addictive rush? potential problems either way). Not to mention dealing with alien intelligences such as mentor spirits and other astral denizens. Or seeing into other unfathomable planes of existence (or leaving their meat body behind to visit those realms). And they have to be a bit insane even to be able to tap into that power.

So if sammies suffer when they get below 1 Essense, how do adepts and mages suffer when they have a 5 or higher Magic rating? I'm thinking it should be less Harry Potter, and more Call of Cthulhu.

Recommendations:

Thesis Of Change
An article by Denise Robinson arguing in favour of the Humanity Loss rules based on real-life experiences with body modification from the point of view of a bod-mod professional.

Solo of Fortune 2013
Cyberpsychosis and what happens.

I played a Paladin (ok, it was an odd class variation on a paladin, but it was still Lawful Good with the oaths and so forth) who wound up toe-to-toe with a rogue who was higher level than her, and due to circumstances in the battle, it wound up being 1-on-1 until she killed him with a critical and max damage on the dice. Up until then, she had never killed another demihuman - everything else was at least monstrous humanoid. And after the fight, she was broken up badly because she DIDN'T feel bad about taking a life. "Him or me" and "he was evil" are all emotional dodges we have to get around breaking the ultimate human taboo: taking another human life. What worried her was that she WASN'T more broken up at doing it. She was FINE with the act. She was worried about what that said about her soul, since she was supposed to be a paragon of good and righteousness. And it drove her to drink when her less discerning party-mates (and adoptive family) told her to grow up or find other work. And I kept getting told I was being "angsty" for wanting to role play the emotional difficulties in taking a life. Cops go on leave and for mandatory counselling after a shooting FOR A REASON.

I find that the people who throw around "emo" and "angsty" and "wimp" are often those more focused on destinations than the journey.

OR, it could be argued the exact opposite, that since ESSense is essentially (no pun) life energy, that as a Mage increases their Initiation and consequently their MAGic stat past 6, they become MORE attuned to living beings.

But it's a bogus argument, because people don't become more disociative for having a high LOGic or AGIlity, either. It's just a stat. ESSence says "stat" but in actuality, it something else entirely.

"Flesh is weak, metal is strong."

"It's like a video game, I mean I just picked up the gun and started shooting. I could see their heart beats stop, the kill points. It gave me a tingle, like sex, but better."

I always played on the fact that as essence starts getting lower ones sanity and outlook on life changes. What that change may be dependes on alot of factors and the person in quistion. As a good rule of thumb, those in the decimal point or neer one area tend to be unbalanced. Nothing funner then a neer pycho cyber sam.

I think there is plenty of variety in the 6th World for a variety of reactions to heavy augmentation. Some people will certainly question themselves at night for removing perfectly good body parts and maybe feel uncomfortable around "natural" people. Others will take to it like a fish to water. They love the sensations, the power, the notion that they made their being better. Some groups might play it mostly one way, others might play it mostly another. However, I think the diversity of people in the 6th World can allow for a lot of fun RP in this area without resorting to penalties or enforced experiences.

As Kerenshara wells knows, I think designer intent is about as valid as Congressional intent.

For a mechanical penalty, I think it's really a group issue. If the group wishes to enforce some kind of penalty, maybe slight, maybe large, that is their preference. Personally I see the mechanical systems revolving around Essence loss as ineffectual and poorly conceived. If Essence is supposed to represent spiritual wholeness, body-soul connection, etc, then why aren't there more penalties associated with it? The crunch needs to support the fluff. It annoys me when games make a huge deal about something in the fluff and don't back it up with teeth. The key would be to decide on the penalties, make sure everyone is aware of them, and enforce them universally. The corp cybermonster of doom doesn't get to ignore them. Now, I'm going to turn around and contradict myself.

I wouldn't add a penalty for Essence loss of any kind were I running a SR game. The system is complex and harsh enough that I don't feel inclined to make it more difficult for characters to improve themselves. I despise games that lace the player cookies with ill-defined poison and say, "here you go." I might impose slight social mods against someone with extensive, obvious 'ware around people that don't like that sort of thing, like Luddites. I'd also impose the same penalties on naturals around the heavy body-mod scene, or whatever. The same kind of penalties I'd impose for showing up to a gala in a dirty lined coat. I'm also sympathetic to the Magic-Mundane argument, so that just adds to my unwillingness to start tacking on penalties.

If a player in my game wanted to make it an issue for their character and roleplay them, and they did it well, they would probably earn bonus RP karma from me. I'm all about supporting people getting in character and rewarding efforts to add to the story. Similarly, if a player wanted to RP an augmentation fanatic (not an addict) who always wanted to know why people didn't get more 'ware, got into fights with purists on the street corner, etc, I'd reward them, too. Both could be a lot of fun and add depth to the story.

I suspect the TYPE of 'ware would have a big effect. Someone with 'ware that doesn't give them inhuman capabilities (tails, etc, cyberskulls) but just augments them left, right, centre until they're strong as a troll, faster than a drone and capable of eating a Panzer round is going to feel, at worst, alienated from everyone else because he's just so much better. Or he might just see himself as the Nietzschian (SP?) superman, and be worried about losing his implants. Someone who has DELTA DELTA DELTA all the way is going to have even less problems. Someone who has bioware of the deltagrade might not even feel any different even if inclined to go utterly bonkers normally until he hits sub 1 essence.

And someone with a lot of bio and gene ware, and just, say, a "HUD" set of Nano/cyberware is going to be pretty well adjusted. It'
s all meat in the end, barring the AR display showing bodily health, a clock, calender, etc.



I've always thought of magic rating as the grunt of their "muscles", and their drain handling capabilities as keeping the mana away from the edges of the channel they force it down (their body). It just means that higher magic ratings, to me, are the difference between having stereotypical nerd biceps and Ronnie Coleman's. And, uh, the disdain for the "puny slow meatbags" isn't an uncommon thing. I'm on the upper end of the fitness scale, fairly strong and I already look at some people and shake my head. How much worse is it for someone who is entirely capable of tearing a car to pieces with his bare hands? After jumping off the roof of a building, no less, and then proceeding to do it in less time than everyone else can pull out their phone cameras? Characters could have it for any high stat, but at that point you are entering World of Darkness territory.

hi hi

I always wondered if the essence rules were thought up by someone who had gone through major surgery. I can tell you that after I had my ribcage carved up and metal rods put in place of bone, I feel a sensation that is very much like a disconnection from reality. It is hard when you are held by a loved one and rather than comforted and warm, all you feel is a dull tingle.

Perhaps people who have bad vision can also relate to the feeling of disconnect. If you go long periods of time without vision correction you can become sort of separated from the world around you. It only exists in vague shadows of what it really is. All you have to do is imagine that you've got that feeling of being disconnected without actually having any empirical impairment.

Thanks for sharing that, seriously. That's the sort of thing that I think drove the original setting and feel, right there.

The first 'ware Hatchetman gets in Cybertechnology is his eyes, and he talks about how different it is to feel like you're watching everything on a TV screen. It's not that he "hurts," but that he feels distanced. And not ubermensch, as is suggested above (although I agree that that attitude is easily supported, roleplaying wise, and I'm not arguing against it), but inhuman, apart, distanced.

Hmm, my groups take a verry diffrent take on it. We've always seen it as the more wire you get the less stable you are. The small community of online games I'ved played take this take on it as well. Supprised how it is iterpreted elswere.

I think it's a game balance mechanic, and how you roleplay it depends on the character.

But if we are talking about losing one's soul and all the stuff, then I do think killing people for money and worse should rate a wee bit higher on the "inhuman" scale than replacing your eyes or adding a datajack.

Same goes for dealing with spirits and using magic to snuff out the life of others - that should rate higher than having some implanted commlink.

I've always had the impression that Shadowrun didn't have a clear essence loss=humanity loss mechanism, so that you could play it however you like.
Nevertheless, it's true that even if there might be no "humanity" loss, it might be difficult for a heavily modified transhuman to identify himself with a non-augmented and, consequently, might lead to some lack of empathy. But it might be the same for a mage.

I agree that being a Shadowrunner (killing people for money) would probably have more impact than cyber and I think that the mix of the two (I become a machine designed to kill people) can have quite an impact. It's also possible that some people blame the cyber to explain what they've become: someone who has trouble coping with the fact he's a figurative killing machine could blame it on the fact that he's a litteral one.
In a similar way, a new Shadowrunner with moral issues could see in cyberware a way to not only something to get stronger on the physical side but also to get stronger on the mental side and get rid of the feelings that trouble him.

Which would sum up to about 5.5 points of Essence loss in SR4 terms.
Should be enough to be eligible for cyber psychosis.
And knowing that you're in a territory where other people go insane in some cases, even if these cases are rare, can be enough to make you extremely psychotophobic (if that is a word).
So it's not actual cyber psychosis, but a form of phobia.



I think the crucial point for mages is visiting the metaplanes for the first time.
Experiencing how the laws of physics don't apply anymore, meeting the spirits of their ancestors and beings that are worshipped as gods on the physical plane.
Or seeing the infinite fractal patterns of raw chaos, the living geometries on the elemental plane, communing with the alien consciousnes that dwells there.

You don't come back as the same person from your first initiation, you take something with you that forever seperates you from everybody who doesn't share these experiences.
This doesn't mean it automatically drives you insane, but...everyday physical reality must seem so trivial after experiencing that.

All this doesn't mean you have to take any negative qualities.
Negative mental qualities such as Phobia or Delusions represent a level of mental imbalance where you're functionally impaired, not a state where you occassionally experience feelings of loss, detachment or anxiety, but remain capable of normal interactions in your everyday live.
Actually taking a Quality to represent the effects of low Essence or arcane secrets tearing at your sanity means that your character is one step further than somebody who just feels some lasting effects from his augmentations.

I can relate to that. I've had three surgeries. One on my wrist for carpal tunnel, one on my elbow for cubital tunnel, and laser vision vision correction. I've felt off / odd in different ways after each surgery.

The Worst IMO was the laser vision correction. My eyes don't feel right. The vision is good, great even. The eyes I see in the mirror are mine. They are the ones I was born with. But they feel wrong. Have you ever tried to explain to a doctor why something feels wrong when all you can say is "It doesn't feel right somehow"? It's not easy.

Aside from sensory organ surgeries (which scare the bejesus out of me, more on that later) most of those post-op feelings are related to nerve loss and damage. I had my right index finger dismembered and replanted (dog bite, nasty stuff) at the top knuckle and I will admit that it just doesn't feel right at times. But I know a lot of that is related to trauma.

Now, on to sensory organs, I've had my right retina detach and my right eardrum and ear bones collapse. With my right ear, I know my hearing isn't that much worse... but I just simply don't hear things out of it, on a regular occasion, that I should. So I keep my left ear towards people in conversation to compensate. Many people notice this as well. As for my eye, the loss in vision I now have, 20/25 from 20/13, is incredibly noticeable, and my combined vision is now 20/18 from 20/10. My right eye also distorts objects a bit which makes reading with that eye difficult as well. The eye itself doesn't feel any different to me, but the sensation of vision is... disconcerting at best.

We think of cyber eyes and ears as being common in SR but, from personal experience, I don't think so. Mods that improve on them, maybe. But total replacements I just don't see being as common. I'm also completely with Kerenshara on the thoughts of ESS, but I did a lot of playing in SR2 so I'm more used to that line of thinking. Every mod you get makes you less connected to the world around you. At first, it isn't as noticeable, but it adds up, and not even just on the "negative quality" line. I feel it's an important caveat of the setting that should be brought back. You don't become more machine than man without losing yourself.

Well, different people might have different opinions, but if the SR technology for cyber-eyes did exist in RL, I would be in line for one ASAP (along with a sleep regulator: 3h of sleep every 48h? BRING IT ON!)

Remember, we're not specifically looking at a cost/benefit analysis on the 'ware in question. Even as hard as I am being on extremely low (sub 1.00 remaining) ESSense, I would jump at quite a few of the pieces. Datajack, comlink, eyes (I'm somewhere upwards of 20/600), ears (20%/10% loss L/R), sleep regulator (I could give up my devotion to Holy Caffeine, praise be It's Beans), Diet Endosont (Icecream without guilt!), ant that's just the tip. Mind you, most of those are fairly low-impact ESSense-wise, and I would buy AlphaWare for the secondary benefite (better integration, thus the lower ESSence loss as well as durability and efficiency and... you get the idea).

It's easy to say you'd get cybereyes, until the time came and you realize they are going to pluck the old ones out of your head and attach cybernetic ones to your optic nerves. Eyes have that connotation of being "windows to the soul", even a heathen like myself can respect that view. Plus, how awkward would it be to know that the eyes you're seeing with aren't really your own. Do you think you would question your perception as not being your own? Even more so if you throw in cyber ears. I'd love to get some insight on that from someone who has had a cornea transplant. I mean, my false tympanic membrane is an autograft, and even it doesn't quite feel right. Now you've got a machine doing it instead... I'm totally a candidate for cyber-psychosis methinks.

Amen!




Nah, I would literally give my eyes for better ones, I could even give a piece of the liver
But well, it is like my friend always says: "paranoia is just a condition when there is no one after you, if there is it becomes a life style".

hi hi

As for roleplaying essence loss in character, I am currently playing a cybered combat specialist (is there any other kind?) and I make sure my character spaces out at appropriate times, says catch phrases at totally inappropriate moments (as though the obscure correlation should be obvious to everyone), asks people to repeat themselves in social situations even though there are no distractions. The effect I'm going for is someone who has a tenuous grasp on reality. Sure, she might see everything in perfect crystal clarity, but non of it really matters one way or another.

Ah, we're at the point where we're discussing our medical history.
Ok, now that we speak of it, i had my left eardrum replaced about 16 or 17 years ago.
The implant still works nicely, really good job done by the professor himself- my doctor is always amazed at how good it was done when he checks on it.
It is also able to handle pressure shifts (in airplanes, for example) better than my remaining natural eardrum.

The thing is, it definitely works different than my natural hearing used to.
The left (artificial) side has a more pronounced bass, but there's a steep cutoff for frequencies above 6 kilohertz (also shows up on hearing tests, which i did tons of after coming out of surgery).
I must say that i actually enjoy this, it sounds better in my personal opinion.
Being a bass player myself, i have always been very fond of the low end of the audible spectrum and there's not that much going on above 6k hertz and the stuff that is going on there tends to be mostly annoying.

I certainly don't get the feeling that it's "not my ear" somehow.
When i think about it, i admire the surgical skill and am glad that medicine has developed to the point where such operations are possible, because otherwise, i'd be deaf on my left ear and being stuck with mono forever is a terrible idea.
Okay, it is made from material taken out of my own cheek, so this may probably underline the theory that bioware does produce less alienation.

It's similar when i look at my apendectomy scar : it's a big scar (less skilled surgeon who did that operation...), it's completely numb to the touch, but it tells me that a hundred years ago, i would have died at age 17 and that medical progress is the only reason i'm still alive and kicking.

Maybe i'm just transhumanist enough that i'm able to view such things as a sign of progress, dunno.

Everyone brings up the cyber-eyes being able to see in uber clarity... and that's true.

Now what if you had a way to "dull" the vision a tiny bit. Make it seem like it's more natural.

When you want the uber clarity, you turn it on. Otherwise it is off and you're seeing like all the other meatbags out there.

In a way, I think you just described regular cybereyes, and then cybereyes with Vision Enhancement.



I'll save your spot.


Another point we're touching on here and there that might be good to explore is the valuation placed on losing a part of yourself vs. the entire lives of others. Various folks in the discussion have pointed out, if I'm paraphrasing properly and please let me know if I'm misreading, that we're talking about people that, since they are "okay" with killing someone In The Face™ for money, they shouldn't be so hung up on giving up a bit of humanity, or that they simply wouldn't have any negative feelings or symptoms from 'ware because they're killers.

I think the very fact that Hatchetman, for example, did seem more torn up about losing parts of himself than about anything he had done along the way is another keystone of the genre. It's about Me, and Me becoming faster, stronger, and better. Those marks? Just that: marks. I don't know them, why should I feel bad about doing what I was paid to do? But man, it just doesn't seem right that I feel like I watched it on TV.

Of course, not every 'runner is a stone cold killer, completely untouched by the death of others. But that one that is, the fact that the E loss makes more of a personal impact? That's pretty fundamental to the game, I think.