first part, spirits
this question isn't really version specific, but neither sr3 or sr4 say anything about targeting a spirit with a control spell (at least not in the spell descriptions). i play sr3, and have sr4 core, but i don't think it matters except for mechanics.

my opinion is i'd allow it. control spells are mana based thus are capable of affecting a spirit, spirits have a mental abilities, are free willed (except when bound), so i say yes.

however, against bound spirits i would think you'd get a penalty. for SR3, i would give the spirit the summoner's charisma dice towards resisting the control spell.

i'm not familiar enough with SR4 magic. i know its always +/- dice, so i guess the spirit/summoner would get a bonus to resist the effects.

second part, magical threats
i say same as above, but the caster has to deal with the corrupted/alien thoughts of these creatures. i would use a willpower or intellegence test to see how the casters brain deals with it.

so lets here some opinions.

The way I've been handling it is that using Control Thoughts or Actions on a spirit requires you to beat the spirit's successes in resistance + the summoner's conjuring or binding in extra dice. Because if McSummony the Summoner binds the shit out of a spirit with his Binding of 7 (Fire Spirits 9) and bound hisself a potent-ass spirit taking time and money and you waltz in with Control Thoughts, that's some bullshit, IMO.

I only apply that penalty if the Control spell countermands or interrupts the spirit's current orders. For instance, if you've ordered the spirit to "Kill that guy!" and That Guy uses control thoughts on the spirit to go "Don't kill me!" then it'd kick in. But if you order your spirit to Aid Sorcery and the guy uses Control Thoughts to go, "Tell me where you master was five minutes ago," then it wouldn't.

Yes, they work.
Mana based spells work on spirits and neither in any spirit nor spell description are limitations towards applying control manipulations to spirits.

Originally, i wanted to vote "yes, with consequences"- but the point is kinda moot, as screwing with any being's head may have consequences for the person who has done so, given that said being finds out.

Of course, the consequences may be different if you've screwed with the mind of a bug spirit because it has more ways to instantly kill you than a corporate wage slave.

Likewise, using control manipulations to trick free services out of your conjured or bound spirits is, IMHO, one of the actions that are most likely to validate a spirit bane flaw, as it would most likely be seen as utterly disrespectful/severe violation of the contract between summoner and summonee/a sacrilege/whatever else depending on the tradition.


As far as additional resistance of bound or summoned spirits go, i'm now tempted to allow automatically allocating Counterspelling dice to the spirit via the mental link between summoner and spirit, but that's it.
It's up to your antimagic skills wether you can protect your precious spirits from other mages.
If you suck at dispelling, you won't be able to help them.

I'm going with no mostly because I can. But with reasoning, and it depends on your thoughts on spirits. Seeing as spirits that get summoned take on shapes relevant to their summoner's beliefs I don't believe you should be able to directly control a spirit in that manner. Now, controlling the mage into making the spirit do something I am totally cool with. Magical threats I said no again but with stipulation. SOME magical threats should be immune to it, others are fair game. Personally though, I think it's a bad idea to try it on a free spirit.

This was pretty much what I saw while reading the poll. If you try to twist your own spirits' arms, they count your demands against their remaining services when the spell wears off. Do it twice to the same type of spirit, and you get Spirit Bane. Three strikes, and you get an instant upgrade to "spirits roll edge against summoning & binding" status.

As for using it against other people's spirits, MAD works just fine. Trounce the force 9 earth elemental that broke loose in your neighborhood with a quick Control Thoughts -> go knock over the Arcology? Next time you're counting on a spirit for a Movement & Concealment assisted escape, don't be surprised when the HTR's mage ordered it to ram your van off the highway instead.

While I'm sure the anti-mages would say no, I see no mechanical reason why not, no mechanical reason why there should be any consequences, and no mechanical reason for any answer but 'yes'. On the other hand, everything has consequences, and I agree wholeheartedly that taking over (or attempting to take over) a powerful spirit's mind is never going to end well, especially if you succeed and manage to snitch free services out of it or something... Seems like the sort of thing you REALLY don't want to do, no matter how it COULD work. I say yes. The consequences, as said above, exist for everything.

I agree completely. I'll also add that you don't need a balance in game mechanics when abuse of that type of power puts you on everyone's shit list.

i would say yes, but with limitations.

i would allow mind control, but i wouldn't allow mind control to directly contradict a mage's orders.

so for example, if a mage ordered a spirit to kill you, you couldn't mind control it to not kill you (you *could* use control actions, however, since you'd be physically forcing the spirit to do stuff). on the other hand, you could certainly use mind control to make it decide that it doesn't need to kill you just now, it can hold off for a little bit (unless the summoner ordered the spirit to kill you immediately, that is).

note that by mind control, i am thinking of stuff like control thoughts and influence. control actions, as i said, i would allow. but control thoughts i wouldn't allow to work beyond the limitations of what a spirit could choose to do on their own; if their summoner orders them to stand guard over an area, they can't choose not to stand guard. they could certainly exercise their liberty in how they go about doing that, and could to some extent twist the meaning of the order, though, and control thoughts would enable you to cause them to do so.

(i would rule this way because imo it's much like trying to order someone who's hands are tied behind their back to drink a glass of water; you can certainly make them want to do it, but unless something happens to free their hands, they won't be able to do it no matter how much you control their mind)

It never came up in any of my games, but i've always considered spirits rolling Edge to resist summoning/binding as the last warning shot before you get Spirit Bane.
As using Edge is an individual decision on a case-to-case-basis, whereas Spirit Bane represents that you've permanently ruined your reputation.



That's an interesting case indeed.

First of all, one could argue that there's already rules for resisting orders that completely go against someone's believes.
In the case of Suggestion, where resistance tests are only possible if someone reminds you of what you're doing is wrong, i would let pre-existing orders through a service count as an automatic reminder, resulting in an appropriate roll in any case.

However, the key question here is which form of control is stronger : the service or the spell.
In general, it seems as if spirits aren't able to resist the orders of their summoner in any way.
This goes much further than believes and convictions that would make a human being resist mind control.
A summoned spirit under orders from it's summoner doesn't have free will as we understand it.
It can try to resist being summoned, it can interpret commands to the letter instead of the spirit (no pun intended) of the command in extreme cases, it can bad-mouth the magician on the metaplanes afterwards- but it is under no circumstances able to truly shake off the need to carry out a service.

There's rules for breaking free from a control manipulation, there are no rules to refuse a service.
From that, one may extrapolate that the control of a summoner is stronger than that exerted by mind control.
This, in turn, can lead to the conclusion that carrying out a service overrides commands issued via a control manipulation.

If this i true, there may still be workarounds, as those mentioned by you.
These suggestions sound like a plausible way of dealing with the mind control of spirits- if i should come to the conclusion that granted services override control manipulations, i'll certainly adopt those positions.

I haven't entirely made up my mind on wether i should revise my former opinion, but this really has got me thinking now.

One may also take a look at the adept power Commanding Voice, that can lead to the subject standing around in confusion if it is unable to carry out the command.

This could also be a possible result from a conflict between spell and service, given that the spirit fails all appropriate resistance rolls.

The spirit would be as unable to carry out the issued command as the person with the tied hands in your above example, but would at the same time be bound to at least attempt to do so, even though it is impossible and will not happen.

Therefore, a spirit facing this kind of conflict may very well be frozen in place, neither able to resist any of the commands issued to it.

thanks to those of you who responded already.

i thought about the conning free services thing as well tonight, and i agree that there should be some major consequences for anyone who abuses that. did anyone consider whether a control spell should use services? i think it is major abuse, but a possible conclusion.

i also agree with the command cannot override service. so if spirit is serviced to kill you, i'd allow you to change the way it's going to kill you, but it's still going to try. "Fire elemental, drown me...in water, not fire!"

i disagree with the comment about being unable to decide. maybe use force of control spell vs summoner charisma, to determine which way.

i remember reading about blood spirits being able to turn on their summoners, even if summoner has services left, if bloodo was in the mood. as for them i'd make it real hard for a control spell.