In recently recruiting for a game, I had a number of characters come up with both the SINner quality and the Erased Quality. When I read the descriptions, it seems like the advantages of erased destroy precisely those disadvantages that accrue from having a SIN (and the advantages as well) - hence, it seems abusive to let characters balance the cost of Erased with a disadvantage (SINner) that doesn't actually harm them.
Thoughts?
Full Version: SINner vs. Erased
They are not stricly mutually exclusive. However, Erased does completely negate Criminal SINner while someone with a normal SIN has only important data on them saved while any unwanted data is erased. I would not allowed someone to take erased with a criminal SIN, I would allow them to still have a normal SIN... but not get any points for it. But I can be a bastid at times.
There's a quote from the HERO system that I think generally applies to any game:
"A Disadvantage which is not a disadvantage is worth no points."
"A Disadvantage which is not a disadvantage is worth no points."
Well, some thing rather amusing: If they're taking a criminal SIN, and Erased (10), then they get a net of.... zero points. If they take Erased (10) and a normal SIN, they get 5 points, but remember, the Erased quality only removes 'unwanted' information. This sort of means that while online information on them won't include anything bad they did, so yes, you're right, it also means that their information in general (address, biometric data, driver's license...) are on the internet, and CAN'T be wiped by the Erased quality - if it was, they wouldn't have a SIN - that's all tied up in what a SIN is. If their Erased quality wipes that sort of info, take the SINner quality away - they're not one.
Thus, if they have both, it means that data is on the Matrix. Thus, it can be matched with left behind DNA or prints at the scene of their runs. I think that's one of the major reasons for the SINner trait being bad, neh? So I won't go further int hat. Bottom line, I agree with the line about disadvantages not being disadvantages. Only I'd say let them have the option of having both, but having to leave the essential SIN data online.
Thus, if they have both, it means that data is on the Matrix. Thus, it can be matched with left behind DNA or prints at the scene of their runs. I think that's one of the major reasons for the SINner trait being bad, neh? So I won't go further int hat. Bottom line, I agree with the line about disadvantages not being disadvantages. Only I'd say let them have the option of having both, but having to leave the essential SIN data online.
The compromise I generated with one of my players (who had the 10 point erased and two SINs) was as follows:
1. You only get points for one SIN.
2. You have to precisely indicate which records you want to have erased prior to generating them - sort of like "scripting your eraser". You can't just decide willy-nilly to pick and choose.
3. This leaves him with net 5 point expenditure, but only some of his records deleted. I figgered this leaves out a datatrail remaining.
1. You only get points for one SIN.
2. You have to precisely indicate which records you want to have erased prior to generating them - sort of like "scripting your eraser". You can't just decide willy-nilly to pick and choose.
3. This leaves him with net 5 point expenditure, but only some of his records deleted. I figgered this leaves out a datatrail remaining.
With an erased criminal sin, I would run it such that the gov't knows that they're a wanted criminal, but that all information regarding previous crimes is gone (the the beat cop it might appear that the criminal record itself is of high security status and he's not allowed to view it).
That said, you have the disadvantage that comes with a criminal sin (they'll arrest you and throw you in jail if you walk out of line) but that those past crimes can't be held against you (the benefit of erased).
That said, you have the disadvantage that comes with a criminal sin (they'll arrest you and throw you in jail if you walk out of line) but that those past crimes can't be held against you (the benefit of erased).
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 4 2009, 12:47 PM) 
With an erased criminal sin, I would run it such that the gov't knows that they're a wanted criminal, but that all information regarding previous crimes is gone (the the beat cop it might appear that the criminal record itself is of high security status and he's not allowed to view it).
That said, you have the disadvantage that comes with a criminal sin (they'll arrest you and throw you in jail if you walk out of line) but that those past crimes can't be held against you (the benefit of erased).
That said, you have the disadvantage that comes with a criminal sin (they'll arrest you and throw you in jail if you walk out of line) but that those past crimes can't be held against you (the benefit of erased).
Go read Criminal SINner agian. You are not wanted, you mearly have a record (which Erased can remove).
Erased is technically compatable with both SINner qualities. While this is fine with SINner, it should not be with Criminal SINner, as it removes the disadvantages.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Sep 4 2009, 01:47 PM)
With an erased criminal sin, I would run it such that the gov't knows that they're a wanted criminal, but that all information regarding previous crimes is gone (the the beat cop it might appear that the criminal record itself is of high security status and he's not allowed to view it).
That said, you have the disadvantage that comes with a criminal sin (they'll arrest you and throw you in jail if you walk out of line) but that those past crimes can't be held against you (the benefit of erased).
That said, you have the disadvantage that comes with a criminal sin (they'll arrest you and throw you in jail if you walk out of line) but that those past crimes can't be held against you (the benefit of erased).
I agree totally. I would even add that if the cops grab you, the GM has the option of noting that your criminal SIN was erased and, putting two and two together, can also charge you with electronic fraud along side what ever crime you just committed. So while the cops can't track you down through your SIN, it still exists and if/when your caught it will be WAY worse for you (more incentive to cover your tracks).
Yeah, if the criminal system worked that way. But, unless they have hardcopies of all the evidence against you, it gets erased. Charging you with electronic fraud is even worse, because (1) you're not committing it, the guy erasing you is committing it; and (2) there's no record of it.
Hence, I agree with Muspelheimmer and bugfoxmaster. The criminal SIN thing doesn't make sense.
However, for regular SINner, it erases 'unwanted' data. Now, if you're gonna maintain a SIN, you need to put out data (grocery purchases, etc.) that can still be used to track you down by someone external. Someone who doesn't do that isn't operating in society the way a SINner does. That datatrail would normally get erased; but might be characterized as 'wanted.' That leaves over, 'what is the unwanted data?' Having a dude on call who can hack any system and get rid of snippets of information at will is a really big leap, and seems far more powerful than 10 BP.
That's where I disagree with Muspellheimer, as you get rid of the disadvatage of having a SIN, so it shouldn't be worth points. Having a SIN in that case becomes a good thing, because you can operate normally with no way for them to get at you.
Hence, I agree with Muspelheimmer and bugfoxmaster. The criminal SIN thing doesn't make sense.
However, for regular SINner, it erases 'unwanted' data. Now, if you're gonna maintain a SIN, you need to put out data (grocery purchases, etc.) that can still be used to track you down by someone external. Someone who doesn't do that isn't operating in society the way a SINner does. That datatrail would normally get erased; but might be characterized as 'wanted.' That leaves over, 'what is the unwanted data?' Having a dude on call who can hack any system and get rid of snippets of information at will is a really big leap, and seems far more powerful than 10 BP.
That's where I disagree with Muspellheimer, as you get rid of the disadvatage of having a SIN, so it shouldn't be worth points. Having a SIN in that case becomes a good thing, because you can operate normally with no way for them to get at you.
QUOTE (rob @ Sep 4 2009, 02:50 PM)
Yeah, if the criminal system worked that way. But, unless they have hardcopies of all the evidence against you, it gets erased. Charging you with electronic fraud is even worse, because (1) you're not committing it, the guy erasing you is committing it; and (2) there's no record of it.
Hence, I agree with Muspelheimmer and bugfoxmaster. The criminal SIN thing doesn't make sense.
However, for regular SINner, it erases 'unwanted' data. Now, if you're gonna maintain a SIN, you need to put out data (grocery purchases, etc.) that can still be used to track you down by someone external. Someone who doesn't do that isn't operating in society the way a SINner does. That datatrail would normally get erased; but might be characterized as 'wanted.' That leaves over, 'what is the unwanted data?' Having a dude on call who can hack any system and get rid of snippets of information at will is a really big leap, and seems far more powerful than 10 BP.
That's where I disagree with Muspellheimer, as you get rid of the disadvatage of having a SIN, so it shouldn't be worth points. Having a SIN in that case becomes a good thing, because you can operate normally with no way for them to get at you.
Hence, I agree with Muspelheimmer and bugfoxmaster. The criminal SIN thing doesn't make sense.
However, for regular SINner, it erases 'unwanted' data. Now, if you're gonna maintain a SIN, you need to put out data (grocery purchases, etc.) that can still be used to track you down by someone external. Someone who doesn't do that isn't operating in society the way a SINner does. That datatrail would normally get erased; but might be characterized as 'wanted.' That leaves over, 'what is the unwanted data?' Having a dude on call who can hack any system and get rid of snippets of information at will is a really big leap, and seems far more powerful than 10 BP.
That's where I disagree with Muspellheimer, as you get rid of the disadvatage of having a SIN, so it shouldn't be worth points. Having a SIN in that case becomes a good thing, because you can operate normally with no way for them to get at you.
Your points are quite valid but I still say the GM has ground to pull the accomplice to the crime card on you. I would argue that if you have Criminal SINner that some evidence somewhere still exists (even if it is just a "This file has been corrupted or deleted, please contact your administrator for help" error message when the PC's criminal record is brought up). Otherwise I agree totally with you that if your eliminating all the criminal record on their SIN then they should only be allowed to have a regular SIN.
Erased (10BP) reads as follows.
Italics emphasis mine.
QUOTE
"Her data trail and records vanish from all but the most secure systems shortly after being entered. Any SIN, undesirable credit history, or personal information on the Matrix that she wishes is burnt after 24 hours. Needed data is preserved."
Italics emphasis mine.
interesting that it also says "all but the most secure systems", implying there is still some trace out there.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 4 2009, 02:06 PM)
Go read Criminal SINner agian. You are not wanted, you mearly have a record (which Erased can remove).
Erased is technically compatable with both SINner qualities. While this is fine with SINner, it should not be with Criminal SINner, as it removes the disadvantages.
Erased is technically compatable with both SINner qualities. While this is fine with SINner, it should not be with Criminal SINner, as it removes the disadvantages.
Though I would say that generally, having the Erased Quality WILL remove that Criminal SIN after 24 hours... at which point the Criminal SIN goes away... No having the Criminal SIN and Erased at CharGen in my games... and if you obtain the Erased Quality after Chargen, it is attained only after extensive roleplaying and "negotiation" with the appropriate contacts necessary to provide such a service...
But hey, Just My 2
Keep the Faith
The cops should not even know that you have a Criminal SIN in the first place, the data that it is Criminal has been Erased. The GM knows but the cops do not unless they have access to the "most secure databases". Covering your tracks won't be a problem since any such data would be Erased.
There is no explicit rule directly forbidding both Erased and Criminal SIN, therefore, as a GM, I'd allow it. Someone somewhere still knows he has a Criminal SIN. He has not bought Criminal SIN off, but normally people would not know he has Criminal SIN because he has bought the Erased Quality.
There is no explicit rule directly forbidding both Erased and Criminal SIN, therefore, as a GM, I'd allow it. Someone somewhere still knows he has a Criminal SIN. He has not bought Criminal SIN off, but normally people would not know he has Criminal SIN because he has bought the Erased Quality.
QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 4 2009, 07:52 PM)
The cops should not even know that you have a Criminal SIN in the first place, the data that it is Criminal has been Erased. The GM knows but the cops do not unless they have access to the "most secure databases". Covering your tracks won't be a problem since any such data would be Erased.
There is no explicit rule directly forbidding both Erased and Criminal SIN, therefore, as a GM, I'd allow it. Someone somewhere still knows he has a Criminal SIN. He has not bought Criminal SIN off, but normally people would not know he has Criminal SIN because he has bought the Erased Quality.
There is no explicit rule directly forbidding both Erased and Criminal SIN, therefore, as a GM, I'd allow it. Someone somewhere still knows he has a Criminal SIN. He has not bought Criminal SIN off, but normally people would not know he has Criminal SIN because he has bought the Erased Quality.
I agree... and sure, there is absolutely nothing forbidding it at Creation, it is just a "thing" for me to have a Drawback that is not a Drawback at Creation... and I know, there are a lot of examples of this that can be abused...
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 4 2009, 09:01 PM)
I agree... and sure, there is absolutely nothing forbidding it at Creation, it is just a "thing" for me to have a Drawback that is not a Drawback at Creation... and I know, there are a lot of examples of this that can be abused...
Criminal Sin + Erased = 0 net BP and 10/35 qualities points (on both tracks).
Its effectively no drawback for effectively no points.
Wrong, it is a huge benefit for no cost.
Of course, after thinking about it for a bit I think I'd allow both, but rule that the character had attracted the attention of someone or something with access to a database that wasn't wipeable.
Of course, after thinking about it for a bit I think I'd allow both, but rule that the character had attracted the attention of someone or something with access to a database that wasn't wipeable.
I'm with Ravor on the "Huge benefit for no cost point." I can agree that a SIN would exist somewhere, on some secure system, but unless you routinely interact with whatever data jockey at the Seattle Metroplex Department of State who would maintain the official offline datastore where SINs are stored, you effectively don't have one.
The way I look at it, a SIN that nobody knows about isn't a SIN. ID doesn't count unless the person verifying it can certify the credential.
As for the "Somebody knows about it, in general" thing, well, sure, but in that case take the enemy quality or whatever. Why waste points and time on making up a workaround for something that is adequately represented somewhere else?
The way I look at it, a SIN that nobody knows about isn't a SIN. ID doesn't count unless the person verifying it can certify the credential.
As for the "Somebody knows about it, in general" thing, well, sure, but in that case take the enemy quality or whatever. Why waste points and time on making up a workaround for something that is adequately represented somewhere else?
The thing is, people do know you have a SIN. You have a number, it's linked to your name, meta type, date of birth, etc. It just doesn't have your phone number, email address, or any record of any crimes.
As one of the said players I'll chime in on the choice.
I had SINner (5) and Erased (5).
My reading on it was that Erased kept my character's SIN squeaky clean. Even filling in holes that should be there. What's "erased" isn't any record of the SINner but rather his illegal activities.
It was a "cleanse" or "purge" of the character's record every 7 days. What I think would've been crazier was my initial plan of also taking Records on File. But to me there's no contradiction: the SIN database is somewhere fairly accessible and hackable but a corp's perhaps standalone server would need hacking in the meat. Or perhaps they're just stored as hardcopies somewhere.
The traffic ticket, the minor license violation, unexplained appearances here and there... Those would be what I'd consider Erased, not necessarily the SINner himself.
I removed all that though and chose something else. I figure that's why I have a Hacker contact.
I had SINner (5) and Erased (5).
My reading on it was that Erased kept my character's SIN squeaky clean. Even filling in holes that should be there. What's "erased" isn't any record of the SINner but rather his illegal activities.
It was a "cleanse" or "purge" of the character's record every 7 days. What I think would've been crazier was my initial plan of also taking Records on File. But to me there's no contradiction: the SIN database is somewhere fairly accessible and hackable but a corp's perhaps standalone server would need hacking in the meat. Or perhaps they're just stored as hardcopies somewhere.
The traffic ticket, the minor license violation, unexplained appearances here and there... Those would be what I'd consider Erased, not necessarily the SINner himself.
I removed all that though and chose something else. I figure that's why I have a Hacker contact.
Erased: Someone had to erase that data. They know who you are. Their system is one of those "most secure systems." That you have that needed information: that is something they can
take away.
SINner: You exist. Without a SIN, Knight Errant/Lone Star/Sgt Bucky's Free-range Police Professionals can harrass, arrest, or even sell you Tanamous to help cover their operating
expenses. Of course, you can also have your every move tracked, your shopping habits known, etc.
Criminal SINner: Your SIN? 136C-2B-XX79-CRMA You know, the thing that says you have been convicted of Rape, Murder, and Arson? Yeah...On top of that, though, it offers
you the same "protection" of having a regular SIN: You exist.
How can these no be mutually exclusive? Well, Erased says necessary data remains. Necessary is: all the data that is in your SIN(you want to exist, right? If not..well, hey, I hear Tanamous offers
a special deal on SINless...and the local Independant Contractor Police force has been running a bit into the red this quarter...) Erased, though, does mean: Records of your presence somewhere
vanish within 24 hours. That night you spent at the Bunraku parlour? While the money gets there, and from your accounts, no-one can trace it back to you....except your good "Friend" who is erasing you....Hey, you know...I hear he/she needs a little favour...Not like they would send all the evidence to put you away for a very long time into the hands of Lone Star...or, not that they would just erase your SIN on the day the Poilce are doing a crackdown to find some SINless to sell to Tanamous...
take away.
SINner: You exist. Without a SIN, Knight Errant/Lone Star/Sgt Bucky's Free-range Police Professionals can harrass, arrest, or even sell you Tanamous to help cover their operating
expenses. Of course, you can also have your every move tracked, your shopping habits known, etc.
Criminal SINner: Your SIN? 136C-2B-XX79-CRMA You know, the thing that says you have been convicted of Rape, Murder, and Arson? Yeah...On top of that, though, it offers
you the same "protection" of having a regular SIN: You exist.
How can these no be mutually exclusive? Well, Erased says necessary data remains. Necessary is: all the data that is in your SIN(you want to exist, right? If not..well, hey, I hear Tanamous offers
a special deal on SINless...and the local Independant Contractor Police force has been running a bit into the red this quarter...) Erased, though, does mean: Records of your presence somewhere
vanish within 24 hours. That night you spent at the Bunraku parlour? While the money gets there, and from your accounts, no-one can trace it back to you....except your good "Friend" who is erasing you....Hey, you know...I hear he/she needs a little favour...Not like they would send all the evidence to put you away for a very long time into the hands of Lone Star...or, not that they would just erase your SIN on the day the Poilce are doing a crackdown to find some SINless to sell to Tanamous...
QUOTE (rob @ Sep 5 2009, 12:49 PM)
I'm with Ravor on the "Huge benefit for no cost point." I can agree that a SIN would exist somewhere, on some secure system, but unless you routinely interact with whatever data jockey at the Seattle Metroplex Department of State who would maintain the official offline datastore where SINs are stored, you effectively don't have one.
By combining SINner (Criminal) and Erased, the synergy of the two produces a net benefit for a combined point cost of 0 and it should - you have spent 10 points of your Positive Qualities and 10 points of your Negative Qualities out of possible total allocations of 35 each. By RAW there is nothing wrong with this combination. And personally the opportunity cost is cost enough for me.
QUOTE (Cardul @ Sep 5 2009, 02:34 AM)
I hear he/she needs a little favour...Not like they would send all the evidence to put you away for a very long time into the hands of Lone Star...or, not that they would just erase your SIN on the day the Poilce are doing a crackdown to find some SINless to sell to Tanamous...
That is turning a positive quality into a negative quality. It also assumes that the quality needs a PERSON to do the erasing. It could be a very well designed program or even an AI who you've somehow pleased in the past and owes you a favor. The book already points out a negative side of the quality.
QUOTE (Erl of Ingst @ Sep 5 2009, 04:55 AM)
That is turning a positive quality into a negative quality. It also assumes that the quality needs a PERSON to do the erasing. It could be a very well designed program or even an AI who you've somehow pleased in the past and owes you a favor. The book already points out a negative side of the quality.
When I took Sinner (5 BP) and Erased (10 BP), I also took as a contact an AI (6/4). I figured this is one of the only ways to get Erased (10 BP) and not look a little silly.
QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 5 2009, 01:37 AM)
By combining SINner (Criminal) and Erased, the synergy of the two produces a net benefit for a combined point cost of 0 and it should - you have spent 10 points of your Positive Qualities and 10 points of your Negative Qualities out of possible total allocations of 35 each. By RAW there is nothing wrong with this combination. And personally the opportunity cost is cost enough for me.
Maybe... but you get 10 points to sepnd elsewhere (especially if you were picking up Erased anyway) when you buy the Criminal SIN, which is then erased immediately upon the start of teh game, so in reality, you received 10 BP for something that never came into play...
seems kind of cheesy to me...
Now, purchasing the quality (Erased) after play starts, now that is a story in and of itself... and it allows the Negative Quality to have an impact...
On the other hand, if you have the Erased Quality when you get that Criminal SIN, then it disappears quick enough that it will probably never hamper you in the Shadows...
Also, the higher level quality does indeed have its own drawback... if that information disappears to quickly, then you may be in for a world of hurt, if you have been incarcerated and not released yet when it (the data) disappears...
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Sep 5 2009, 04:45 AM)
When I took Sinner (5 BP) and Erased (10 BP), I also took as a contact an AI (6/4). I figured this is one of the only ways to get Erased (10 BP) and not look a little silly.
Or a really good TM, Wild Sprite, Fastjack level hacker, it all really depends on the character. May it's some backdoor program that is simply deleting all information of you as it passes through a certain point, that's how I worked it for one character, who admittedly had no SIN, but did have wanted. There were still records of him on secure UCAS databases, but new virtual information on him was difficult to track and use as it vanished quickly.
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