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EH44
I have seen many posts that say mages are overpowered and suggest various rules fix ranging from increasing drain, to increasing the karma costs of improving magic, etc. However, I think there are many ways to handle a mage without having to go outside of the rules already included. I will just list some of the ideas that I have used, other GM's in my group have used, or that I have even seen used elsewhere.

Idea 1: Mages are not as rare as the fluff text of the game indicates. I think the stat is supposed to be that about 1% of the world are mages if memory serves me correctly. But this does not have to mean that 1% of all shadowrunners are mages or that only 1% those involved in the criminal underworld are mages. It is not statistically improbable that mages, due to their unique and powerful abilities, could represent between 5-10% of all shadowrunners/criminals/security. They would be overrepresented simply because there is a lot of money incentive to use their abilities in such a way. If you just include 1 mage per 10 goons, then you have the counterspelling to help fight off the group mage as well as someone that can handle him/her in the astral.

Idea 2: Spirits can kick a mage's butt. If you lob a couple of force 1-4 spirits at a character, they will usually be pretty easy to defeat. But statistically, once it starts getting to force 5 or higher, it gets that much tougher since most abilities are a combination of either a skill or magic plus the relevant ability (making most things force x 2 for the dice pool). Further, mages do not get to use counterspelling against critter powers (at least from my reading of the text, and please correct me if I am wrong). So now, you have the reversal of the situation where it is usually the mage putting his magic and spellcasting combined against some poor mooks 3 willpower and instead have the spirit (casting fear) putting willpower + magic vs the mages willpower alone. You can wash, rinse, repeat with whatever spirit power you like.

Further, in astral combat, higher level spirits are monsters as it is going to be willpower plus astral combat (so a force 8 spirit would get 16 dice). Because of stat limitations, player mages will not be able to keep up this power curve for long.

Spirits also have edge. This can be used to resist being summoned, to resist the player's stunbolt, to resist being banished, etc. There is no rule that says it is the player who decides when the spirit uses edge. I suggest not giving that to the players control and retaining that as the exclusive right of the GM.

Some spirits have counterspelling and magical guard as well...such as the guardian spirit. If you really want to mess with the player characters, have the spirit layer its counterspelling on top of the enemy mages counterspelling.

Lastly, Spirits have personality. Maybe a spirit doesn't want to manifest to be shot hundreds of times until dead. Maybe it will resist if it feels it is not being used for the purpose it thinks it should have or perhaps it is a lazy spirit that doesn't want to serve for all of its services. If a player is abusing spirit powers to much, it is well within the rules to reign them in using this technique.

Idea 3: geek the mage. This doesn't mean try to annihilate the person playing the mage by that virtue alone. But what it does mean is that tactically, enemies would logically want to kill the mage first and they can be roleplayed that way. Whenever you see a well armed group and then there is some skinny, unarmed person standing without an ounce of fear with them...you know it is either a mage or a hacker. In either case, killing that person should be a priority for enemies.

It is a good idea to allow players ways to deal with this mentality. Tell them to armor up and carry a weapon to be less conspicuous. Tell them that once they cast a spell and it is obvious....such as a fireball spell racing from their hands to blow up someone, that they will become target number one. Tell them that if they feel like having the armor spell activated (which creates a visual field around the mage), while levitating (very obvious as well), that they will be targetted first. Further, if there is an enemy mage or adept with astral perception, they will know who the mage is and can direct their friends to target the mage first.

If being targetted in the meat is too much for the party mage, they may want to play astral couch potato. But this self limits what they can do. Astrally they can scout and they can also send spirits to manifest and attack certain targets. But unless an enemy is astrally active or dual natured, their spell cannot cross over. Further, they cannot act as a command and control for the group since commlinks do not work astrally so they must go back and forth from their body to communicate anything they scout out. Watchers could be used, but they are dumb, which could lead to funny situations and misinformation if a mage tries to use them to relay messages.

Idea 4: Focuses and Fetishes can lead to problems. If you let a mage walk around with all focuses activated all the time with no penalty, then that will only encourage those nasty, power focus 4, sustain focus with increased reflexes at max level, etc type of characters to run wild. First, you can use addiction to discourage their constant use. Most players will not want to develop addictions and if they do not care, then there are numerous times when being addicted will seriously hurt the player. For example, focuses all have legality ratings. You can easily have lonestar, corp sec, or whoever step up their checking of permits or even require players leave their focuses at the door. If they don't let guns in, why would they let that power 4 focus in? Also, you could even have roving astral patrols single out characters and send physical backup to detain if they have some ridiculously high focus that there is no realistic way they could actually obtain a permit for due to the legality....perhaps you could make the bar that all legality 13+ focuses that have been assensed will be investigated as being per se illegal. You can substitute an AMP wand (arsenal pg 63) for mundane police that are on patrol or even make it standard issue in your game (though you would probably want to rule that it is less expensive if you did something like that).

Idea 5: Astral and Magic defenses are common. There are very cheap ways to provide defenses or at least cover from astral sight and movement. Awakened Ivy, biofiber, etc. Any building with anything worth securing from astrally prying eyes should be covered in astral ivy or something else to impede movement and astral vision. If the mage wants to destroy this relatively cheap security, then it gives notice to the mundane security inside that something is going on and they can call for backup or alert lonestar.

Idea 6: make ultrasound sensors more common. I would daresay that improved invisibility is one of the most used spells in any game I play in. It forces blindfire rules and acts nearly as a better defense than the armor spell plus it makes the player unobtrusive. Ultrasound defeats invisibility and is the great equalizer if you find this spell being abused in your game.

Idea 7: the spirit power of concealment is not all powerful. Of all spirit powers, this is definitely the one most used and abused in my games. It subtracts a number of dice equal to the spirits force from perception tests to detect those concealed. Concealment got even more powerful in the 4A edition as it explictly applies to astral perception as well now. The usual abuse I see is that players want to use the power, stealth around, and then keep the same penalty dice once they start attacking. The abuse to me is really in that last part and how you handle it can make all of the difference. In my games, I resort to the rule that once the players do anything incredibly obvious it basically drops the concealment. I know this smacks of old style D&D but that is my fix. Alternately, you can rule that the concealment is maintained but give a positive modifier to enemies to see players from muzzle flashes or whatever you need to and then make the decision if you want to use blindfire rules or regular. This alternate solution gives rise to the fire....hide and move....fire some more type of battles. This is also fun and gives time for reinforcements but definitely gives a strong edge to players which is why I do the first, more cheesy solution to keep concealment from being overly powerful.

Idea 8: spread enemies out. If you clump enemies together, you are begging the mage of the group to cast stunball. Don't group them up.

Generally: I think there are two situations that really give rise to the mages are too powerful train of thought. First, is that mages can really dominate the non combat actions. Get the mage to levitate everyone, get the mage to cast improved charisma on the face, get the mage to transform the big bad guy into a gerbil, etc. But like a hacker, support characters like mages are made for these non combat activities and naturally tend to dominate outside of combat in terms of table time. This is not that they are overpowered, but a necessary part of the game. A party with no mages can be fun but definitely is a much more challenging approach.

The other situation is the force 10 stunbolt vs non magical enemies. Whenever the mage rolls 12 dice vs 3 willpower to resist, it seems a bit unfair. Considering that 90% of your enemies will have average willpower and no counterspelling, it gets to be a bit ridiculous. The goal as a good GM is to keep everything from turning into this exact battle. Busy the mage with a spirit or an enemy mage. Have the enemy mage use counterspelling on the mooks. Spread enemies out so a single stunball doesn't turn a hard run into a joke.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts. Mages can be overpowered at times but with the right GM techniques, they can be brought down to size within the rules very easily.


Straight Razor
good points.
Having players actions result in consequences outside combat is a good way to make players slow down a bit.

the current population of Seattle is 3,344,813. in SR it is supposed to be grossly over populated. The architecture is designed to deal with this with super efficient high-rises, and archologies. so lets say is just 3 times more people 10,034,439

there are at least 100,344 mages in Seattle. Now, weather you want to say that's all magically active persons, or just full mages is you call.

Seattle metro is 8,186 sq mi

12 mages per square mile

there are 400 city blocks in a square mile

so all things random, you got a better that 1 in 40 chance of being within 177m of a mage at any point in the day.
sir fwank
QUOTE
so all things random, you got a better that 1 in 40 chance of being within 177m of a mage at any point in the day.


now whats the chance of that 1 in 40 having a magic rating of 89?

and said magician throwing powerball...
toturi
QUOTE ( Street Magic)
Less than 1% of the Sixth World's populace even has the potential to use magic. Of that 1 percent, only a fraction has the training, focus, or discipline to use it effectively;...
Ravor
Meh, you forgot background counts and vision mods.
suppenhuhn
Idea 1)
The problem with that is that you need mages yourself to deal with mages, it would be better if there were more mundane means which are effective.

Idea 2)
Pretty much the same as 1).

Idea 3)
Problem here is how do the guards know who is the mage?
if you stick by your shoot the glowy thing then most mages will just cast armor on the troll tank in full armor.
Apart from such obvious things there simply is no way to tell who the mage actually is and thus the whole thing is as useless as don't get into LoS against a foe you can't perceive.

Idea 4)
Here, again, detecting the focus in the first place is the problem and for addictions you really need more foci then any sr mage probably needs.

Idea 5)
Yes they should be used very often but they also aren't really that effective unless you couple them with some rarer stuff.

Idea 6)
True, but very expensive for your run a dime a dozen guards.
Also with the 4A changes improved invisibility isn't as good as it was before.

Idea 7)
This is a house rule.

Idea cool.gif
If you spread the guards out too much you are begging for stunbolt instead.

Generally)
The problem is not that they are great for utility, but that they are great for utility AND awesome combatants. It's the combination that is annoying because you have a hard time to allow mundanes to really shine.
Ravor
Actually foci addiction like the others is largely in the realm of DM, and it shouldn't be solely based off of how many foci, but also how often said foci are used.

However I do have a problem with the idea that sec guards are going to shoot at some guy in the back as opposed to the 800 lbs of horned death that is charging straight at them, people don't tend to make the best "effective" choices in the middle of a firefight and if the Mage is donig his job correctly the sec guards shouldn't have a clue which one to shoot anyways without the DM metagaming with OOC knowledge.
Jaid
my general assumption for concealment power is that if you wouldn't need to make a perception check, it doesn't matter what your dice pool is, because no check is made; you only make a perception check if there is some chance it won't spot you. if you're in a black suit standing in the middle of a white room, with no cover... there is no perception check to perceive you. if you are standing in the open shooting everyone, there is no perception test to see you. now, if you're 100 meters away with a ghillie suit on, then that's different...
Ravor
Agreed, that handles the worst abuses of the power, although I'm still chaffed by it working on the Astral now.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (EH44 @ Sep 5 2009, 02:42 PM) *
Spirits also have edge. This can be used to resist being summoned, to resist the player's stunbolt, to resist being banished, etc. There is no rule that says it is the player who decides when the spirit uses edge.


In fact, there is a rule -either in Street Magic or Digital Grimoire- that specifically states that mages cannot decide wether the spirit uses Edge.
The text further elaborates that spirits will use Edge most likely to resist Banishing and the likes.

However, they will only use it against Summoning and Binding attempts if the mage has angered that type of spirits before (in other words : is on the way to the Spirit Bane Quality) or if the spirit is vastly more powerful than the mage.

QUOTE
Some spirits have counterspelling and magical guard as well...such as the guardian spirit. If you really want to mess with the player characters, have the spirit layer its counterspelling on top of the enemy mages counterspelling.


That's right, but note that this is handled as a Teamwork Test, not just a mere stacking of dicpools.

QUOTE
Lastly, Spirits have personality. Maybe a spirit doesn't want to manifest to be shot hundreds of times until dead. Maybe it will resist if it feels it is not being used for the purpose it thinks it should have or perhaps it is a lazy spirit that doesn't want to serve for all of its services. If a player is abusing spirit powers to much, it is well within the rules to reign them in using this technique.


No, spirits have no way of resisting orders from their summoner.
If the summoner starts abusing them, they may become angered and start to carry out orders strictly by the letter.
If it goes further, they may use Edge to resist Summoning.
If the mage still treats them like shit, he may receive Spirit Bane for free.
But that's it.

QUOTE
Concealment got even more powerful in the 4A edition as it explictly applies to astral perception as well now.


WAIT, WHAT???
If that's really in the rules, it's utter and complete bullshit.
Concealment is a Physical power, it CANNOT work on the astral.

If they've changed it to be a Mana power now, it doesn't work against technology, which wouldn't make it more powerful per se, but a power with completely different applications.

If it's still Physical and is supposed to also work on the astral, it's just plain wrong, broken and against all the rules regarding plane seperation and deserves an erratum ASAP.



As far as your other points are concerned, i basically agree with most of them (except for Focus addiction- i strictly follow the guidelines for that given in Digital Grimoire).
However, i make a point of such defenses originating plausibly from within the gameworld, instead of being metagamey stuff thrwon at the PCs.
I don't like the notion that the game world should adapt to the PCs because the GM believes that they're overpowered, but if it is a plausible reaction from the NPCs, i'm fine with it.


Regarding mundane defenses against mages, i'd like to add drones and visibility modifiers, but someone else will adress this anyway, so i'm not going to further elaborate on that point as this post has gotten quite long already.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 5 2009, 11:11 AM) *
QUOTE (Street Magic)
Less than 1% of the Sixth World's populace even has the potential to use magic. Of that 1 percent, only a fraction has the training, focus, or discipline to use it effectively;...


The worldwide average for number of medical doctors per 1000 people is between 1 and 3 depending on which year's statistics you look up, or put in to terms of percentage: 0.1% - 0.3%. Yet, even at that fraction of a percent they're not hard to find. It's just a matter of going to the places where doctors have the oportunity to turn their talents into a sizable income: doctors' offices and hospitials.

EH44's suggestion that 1 out of every 10 of people on both sides of the security equation could be magically active is quite reasonable. Shadowrunners do not interact with the entire world populace at once, but a specific, specialized subset of that populace.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Sep 5 2009, 09:37 AM) *
The worldwide average for number of medical doctors per 1000 people is between 1 and 3 depending on which year's statistics you look up, or put in to terms of percentage: 0.1% - 0.3%. Yet, even at that fraction of a percent they're not hard to find. It's just a matter of going to the places where doctors have the oportunity to turn their talents into a sizable income: doctors' offices and hospitials.

EH44's suggestion that 1 out of every 10 of people on both sides of the security equation could be magically active is quite reasonable. Shadowrunners do not interact with the entire world populace at once, but a specific, specialized subset of that populace.



Agreed...
Kerenshara
Some things to keep in mind (at the moment I don't feel like tackling the OP's points one at a time, because generally most of them are solid enough to let stand as-is) about that 1% mark:

That 1% = Awakened people, i.e. somebody with a MAGic attribute 1+.

Of that group of people, and it's older fluff I am falling back on now, just a bit over half were Adepts of some flavor or another.

So let's say 0.5% of people in the 6th World are Mages of some kind or another. I think I shouldn't get much argument on that point.

If we say that EVERYBODY with a MAGic attribute 1+ and the Magician quality works their ability to some extent or another, then the percentages by stat should look something like:

1: <2%
2: 25%
3: 40%
4: 25%
5: 5-7%
6+: <2%

because MAGic is a stat like any other, where compared to all Awakened individuals as a group, the average amongst those who develop their Talent at all is a 3.

Many of the assumptions thrown around about opposition Mages is that they have a MAGic stat of 5+, and that would mean that the Shadowrunning community is pulling from the same 0.00045 fraction of the population (less than 1 : 10,000) as the rest of organized crime, the corps and everybody else with nuyen to spend on Awakened resources.

Now, of those people, how many are going to have skill levels better than 3 (Professional)? Only those with significant dedication and focus. So it is probably fair to say that 1:25,000 is a fair estimate of MAGic 5/Skill 4+ Magicians in the world as a whole. To put that in to a more meaningful frame of reference:

Seattle has 3,000,000 people per Seattle 2072.

30,000 are Awakened (possesing a MAGic attribute 1+)
15,000 are Magicians (possesing the Magician quality)
1350 have a MAGic attribute of 5+
Only 120 would have both a MAGic attribute of 5+ AND a skill level of 4+ (Max starting skill group rating)

Now, that's just general. Seattle attracts a lot of oddball characters, but even then, it's unlikely that there should be more than 1000 total high-rating Magicians in the entirety of the 'plex, and they have jobs ranging from security to research to 'running to things having NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with their Awakened Talent.

You may be able to swing a pretty big cat and hit somebody who is technically a Magician in Seattle, but the likelyhood of them being possessed of significant power and skill is actually fairly remote.
kzt
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Sep 5 2009, 11:49 AM) *
[font="Lucida Console"]Some things to keep in mind (at the moment I don't feel like tackling the OP's points one at a time, because generally most of them are solid enough to let stand as-is) about that 1% mark:

That 1% = Awakened people, i.e. somebody with a MAGic attribute 1+.

Of that group of people, and it's older fluff I am falling back on now, just a bit over half were Adepts of some flavor or another.

If you go to the REALLY old fluff that about 10% of the 1% are "fully capable, trained, competent magicians in the Sixth world". The Grimoire, page 9. This implies magic 5 or more, or some compensating ability.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (kzt @ Sep 5 2009, 01:05 PM) *
If you go to the REALLY old fluff that about 10% of the 1% are "fully capable, trained, competent magicians in the Sixth world". The Grimoire, page 9. This implies magic 5 or more, or some compensating ability.

OK, thanks. But that would include Adepts with MAGic 5+ too, so my numbers are probably close or even more lenient. You seem to be suggesting that my numbers are TOO lenient. Did I understand that correctly? (Remember, Skill 3 is enough to make a living at, and I was specifically looking for 4+. Moreover, a stat of 3 would represent having achieved the "average development" so I'm not sure I'd agree with the characterization of MAGic 5+ as being what they're talking about. How about we split the difference and call it 4+?)
kzt
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Sep 5 2009, 12:09 PM) *
OK, thanks. But that would include Adepts with MAGic 5+ too, so my numbers are probably close or even more lenient. You seem to be suggesting that my numbers are TOO lenient. Did I understand that correctly? (Remember, Skill 3 is enough to make a living at, and I was specifically looking for 4+. Moreover, a stat of 3 would represent having achieved the "average development" so I'm not sure I'd agree with the characterization of MAGic 5+ as being what they're talking about. How about we split the difference and call it 4+?)

Adepts are not even mentioned in the discussion in Grimoire. They say there are 3-4 million fully capable, trained and competent magicians. So the 1% number is just full mages. Adepts are extra.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (kzt @ Sep 5 2009, 01:18 PM) *
Adepts are not even mentioned in the discussion in Grimoire. They say there are 3-4 million fully capable, trained and competent magicians. So the 1% number is just full mages. Adepts are extra.

Hmmm... ok so my numbers would be off by 1/2. Still a pretty small absolute number. But once Adepts became "common" (later 2nd Ed and further) they still kept tossing around the 1% Awakened figure. I wonder if Ancient History is hovering around someplace, or maybe Bull? Anybody else have a thought on that one?
eidolon
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Sep 5 2009, 10:37 AM) *
The worldwide average for number of medical doctors per 1000 people is between 1 and 3 depending on which year's statistics you look up, or put in to terms of percentage: 0.1% - 0.3%. Yet, even at that fraction of a percent they're not hard to find. It's just a matter of going to the places where doctors have the oportunity to turn their talents into a sizable income: doctors' offices and hospitials.


Yup. And given that 1 is a sight higher than .1-.3, I've never seen the point of getting too caught up in the old "why are there mages in the shadows" and "why do you always come up against mages on a run" questions.

Add on the old "it's a game" bit and there's even less reason to feel like you need to justify it.

Edit: By the way, good post EH44. It's particularly good advice to keep the easily purchased magical defenses in mind. It's one thing to know they're in the books, and yet another to remember to consider them when you're planning a session. smile.gif
Rasumichin
Keep in mind that we're talking big sprawls here.
These will attract a lot of magically gifted, as that's where the jobs and educational opportunities for them are.
Most Hermetics and some of the other traditions (practically all Chaos Mages and British Druids, as well as a sizeable percentage of Black Mages, Quabbalists, Wujen and Theurges) receive most of their advanced magical education at some sort of university or technical school.
Most colleges also hold classes for Shamanism or whatever is the dominant form of "natural", close-to-earth-type magic in their area (e.g., there's Wiccan faculties on major universities in the AGS).
Schools specialized in sports, media, fine arts and so on may also offer training programms for adepts.

This means that university towns will have a disproportanetely large number of Awakened, whereas in backwater communities, most of the Awakened will be high school students that will move to the big city once they've qualified for college.

Once they've finished their education, odds are high that they'll remain in the sprawl, as that's where the money's at, therefore also the job opportunities for most Awakened.
Ranging from "i'm going for the easy living and earn 5 grand a month just by setting up wards 20 hours a week", "i want to do something creative, i'm gonna be a special effects mage or magical sculptor or bard or whatever" and wellnes- and cosmetics mages as well as Awakened criminals to more serious occupations such as sanologist, forensics mage, corporate researcher, talismonger, divining counselor, alchimistic engineer or security mage.

All of these jobs will be offered more frequently near the big corps and the massive money they shell out (or even almost exclusively, as in the case of corporate combat mages and runners) or otherwise cater to such a specialized market that employment is much easier to be found in the sprawl, whereas a small, rural community would not provide sufficient income for someone who wants to make a living by selling Makeover and Fashion spells, selling foci or other esoteric occupations.

There are, of course, several exceptions to this rule :
-Awakened serving in the military
-tribal shamans, priests and cult leaders
-talis-smugglers
-back-to-nature types who do not only revere nature, but don't mind living on root bark or magical nutrition instead of living in a cozy penthouse with a roof garden
-general Awakened nut cases
-BAD producers

This will drag down the percentage of Awakened in the sprawls a bit, but all in all, i assume that a lot of Awakened gravitate to the metroplexes at least for some time of their live.

Moreover, people as far out as Awakened will be likely to seek out more liberal, urban environments, where they are less likely to be treated as freaks all day long.

In any case, the demand for magical security will draw a fair amount of potential employees in this field from outside.
Worldwide averages have little to say about how many security mages work in Seattle, they can just answer a part of the question how many of them where born and raised in the Seattle area.
If extraterritorial corps have trouble finding Awakened security personell, wouldn't it be plausible to assume that they hire Awakened from developing nations, who would, in many cases, take the chance to become rich overseas and move back to their homeland a couple years later, after they've made a fortune?


Of course, there will be people who have so little magical talent that they can't make a living of it and have to work in some other entirely mundane job, as well as adepts who enhance their performance in a normal occupation with magic (arcane master car mechanics, pornomancer insurance salesmen, crab fishers making sacrifices to the sea spirits) as well.

But the demand for both runners and corpsec mages will attract people from somewhere else if suffcient amounts of money are offered.
Therefore, the 1%-information is much less of a problem than it sounds.
Ravor
Given that in the old days everyone started with ( Magic 6 ) I don't think I'd agree that the quote about fully capable Mages would mean anything other than ( Magic 3+ ) remember that the old ( Magic 5 ) would be ~ ( Magic 8 ) under the new rules.
kzt
Being a mage in SR1 was damn expensive, as it was using the priority system.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 5 2009, 09:49 PM) *
Given that in the old days everyone started with ( Magic 6 ) I don't think I'd agree that the quote about fully capable Mages would mean anything other than ( Magic 3+ ) remember that the old ( Magic 5 ) would be ~ ( Magic 8 ) under the new rules.

That's one of the areas where I "look the other way" at the continuity-disconnect. Back then it was more a matter of just the Skills. But this way makes a drekload more sense to me, anyhow.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (kzt @ Sep 5 2009, 10:27 PM) *
Being a mage in SR1 was damn expensive, as it was using the priority system.



As it should be. Magic opens up ridiculous options and as each edition crawls along limits your mundane capabilities less and less. The ability ot heal, turn invisible, create magical barriers, fly, shape change, find enemies within 60+ meters, summon spirits(who have a huge range of abilities) should be expensive.

In 1e(and most of 2e) it was expensive just to have it, now its expensive to excel in it. Perosnally I preferred the 1e and 2e approach it seemed to fit the fluff a bit better for me.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Sep 5 2009, 11:03 PM) *
That's one of the areas where I "look the other way" at the continuity-disconnect. Back then it was more a matter of just the Skills. But this way makes a drekload more sense to me, anyhow.


Yes starting at a 6 attribute makes less sense than the current method. I especially thought it was weird given the wiz kid mage contact had a magic of 3 because he was learning the mojo. There are a couple logical incongruities with the magic 1 start and having cyber in your background but on the whole it makes more sense. I would still prefer a higher entry fee though to fit the fluff a little better of it being really fraggin rare.
Pendaric
Mild shame in plugging my sig work for low powered independant magical sec corp.
CanRay
I'd deal with Mages the same way I'd deal with someone with a gun.

Very politely.
Moxie
Not really orthodox, but could have Surge people with astral hazing to protect as well. Background count 4 is a hefty chunk of magic.
Blade
Idea 9: Oh the delicious power. Mages need karma. A lot of it. It's great because it shows how much a mage crave power. The good news is that there are a lot of ways to get power, even without karma. The bad news is that they aren't... politically correct. Deals with spirits, blood magic ("Hey as long as the victim is willing or is going to die anyway, it's not like it's something bad!"), use of toxic domains. I like to tempt my players with such things: "There's a toxic background count here, but you've been living here for long enough and you're pretty sure you can actually shape that toxic mana. If you want to filter the mana anyway you'll have a -1 modifier. If you want to use it, you'll have a +1 modifier.", "The people here are panicked, the astral plane is full of their powerful emotions. There's so much power in there, and maybe you could harness it.".

Idea 10: No-one likes mages. This includes other runners. Sure, it's always nice when the mage stuns the guards, but when he rapes their mind or influence them, you can't help but wonder if he does that to you too. Remember when he asked if he could get a little more cash since he did the biggest part of the run? You wonder why you agreed so easily.

Idea 11: Power abuse. Why wait in line when all it takes is a little spell to get in? Why buy her a bottle of champagne and spend the whole evening listening to her boring conversation when all it takes is a little spell to get in too? You can even alter her memory so that she remembers it as her best night ever.

Idea 12: Everyone is overpowered anyway. Seriously. Mages are good and can do a lot of very powerful things, but so can a street samurai, a hacker or a face. Sure, it's hard to stop a force 8 spirit. But no more than a essence 0.01 Troll streetsamurai. Sure, a mage can read minds and have people do whatever he wants. But so can a good face with the good tools. And when a mage can sneak inside a place without anyone noticing him, a hacker can get inside with people around him actually helping him.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Blade @ Sep 7 2009, 05:33 AM) *
Idea 9: Oh the delicious power. Mages need karma. A lot of it. It's great because it shows how much a mage crave power. The good news is that there are a lot of ways to get power, even without karma. The bad news is that they aren't... politically correct. Deals with spirits, blood magic ("Hey as long as the victim is willing or is going to die anyway, it's not like it's something bad!"), use of toxic domains. I like to tempt my players with such things: "There's a toxic background count here, but you've been living here for long enough and you're pretty sure you can actually shape that toxic mana. If you want to filter the mana anyway you'll have a -1 modifier. If you want to use it, you'll have a +1 modifier.", "The people here are panicked, the astral plane is full of their powerful emotions. There's so much power in there, and maybe you could harness it.".

"Your hate has made you powerful. Now fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!"
toturi
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Sep 7 2009, 06:43 PM) *
"Your hate has made you powerful. Now fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!"

Sorry, if I want to play Star Wars, I'd go play Star Wars where evil is evil and good is good.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 7 2009, 08:20 AM) *
Sorry, if I want to play Star Wars, I'd go play Star Wars where evil is evil and good is good.

Geez, lighten up just a hair, huh? It was supposed to be a joke, because the quoted text sounded so much like "welcome to the Dark Side; Here's your cookie".
CanRay
Mmmmmmmmmmmmm... Cookie!
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 7 2009, 08:22 AM) *
Mmmmmmmmmmmmm... Cookie!




Cookies Indeed.......
CanRay
There's Evil in Shadowrun. Insect Spirits, Toxic Spirits, Some Dragons, and their servants. And the "Horrors" that are still on their way, and possibly invading the Matrix this time as well...

Now, where's the Good?

Anywhere?

Nope. The closest thing we had was Dunkie, and even he was playing his own game for his own profit. And Captain Chaos, but that was more due to his view of "Information Should Be Free" than anything else. But look at what happened to them.

Nope, the only Good you can find in Shadowrun is Good Beer, and that's 100 nuyen.gif a can!
toturi
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Sep 7 2009, 09:57 PM) *
Geez, lighten up just a hair, huh? It was supposed to be a joke, because the quoted text sounded so much like "welcome to the Dark Side; Here's your cookie".

Dark chocolate cookies, perhaps?

Humor, the internet conveys it not. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 7 2009, 07:28 PM) *
Dark chocolate cookies, perhaps?



Bad Toturi, Very Bad!

Keep the Faith
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