Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Drone weapons
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Tyro
The premade weapons in the books aren't really made for drones. They don't need recoil comp, they can't (to my knowledge) use smartlinks or laser sights, and they don't really care about internal magazine size. How would you go about building guns for drones? I'm especially interested in LMG's (for medium drones), HMG's (for heavy drones), and alternative options like a ferret swarm armed with tasers, as well as extras like underbarrel grenade launchers. Fudging is fine within reason; the Arsenal rules for building guns don't really take vehicle weaponry into account, and I see no reason why electronic firing and trigger removal, for example, shouldn't be considered standard (no cost, nuyen or capacity). Modifying existing weapons is good too. Go nuts!

I'll start with a grenade launcher I built a while back. I used the ammo skip system rules in a way not explicitly allowed for (they put rules in for modding it on, but not for including it in the design), but I think the way I used it makes a lot of sense. I give you the "Skipper" underbarrel grenade launcher.

"Skipper" Underbarrel Grenade Launcher (Based on Ares Antioch-2):
The Skipper, due to its unique cylinder design and ammo-skip system,
allows Shadowrunners with smartlinks to avoid unnecessary fumbling
in order to find the right grenade for a given situation. Comes with
an integral smartlink and optional airburst link (+500). The Skipper
is specifically designed as an underbarrel smartweapon; treat it as
having the electronic firing and trigger removal mods. It doesn't
have a handle, so you'd have to retrofit it if you wanted to use it
alone. Note that the ammo skip system in the Skipper works like a revolver:
it doesn't eject, it cycles.

Damage as grenade
SS
1 RC
8 (cy)
8F

+600 (base)
+250 (ammo skip system)

=850 (basic model)

+500 (optional airburst link)

=1350 (with airburst link)

I'd personally fudge the cost down a bit (probably just to 800/1300, but possibly lower), as it was designed this way and the 250 ammo skip system cost is straight from the modding section.
McCummhail
QUOTE (Tyro)
"Skipper" Underbarrel Grenade Launcher (Based on Ares Antioch-2):
The Skipper, due to its unique cylinder design and ammo-skip system,
allows Shadowrunners with smartlinks to avoid unnecessary fumbling
in order to find the right grenade for a given situation. Comes with
an integral smartlink and optional airburst link (+500). The Skipper
is specifically designed as an underbarrel smartweapon; treat it as
having the electronic firing and trigger removal mods. It doesn't
have a handle, so you'd have to retrofit it if you wanted to use it
alone. Note that the ammo skip system in the Skipper works like a revolver:
it doesn't eject, it cycles.

I think ammo skip on a grenade launcher should be standard,
but wouldn't the cylinder make this far larger than the gun it is attached to?

I like the idea of drone weapons, but is there a large enough market share
to incentivise companies to make weapons specifically for drones?
Jaid
QUOTE (McCummhail @ Sep 8 2009, 11:56 AM) *
I like the idea of drone weapons, but is there a large enough market share to incentivise companies to make weapons specifically for drones?

why wouldn't there be? drones are dirt cheap, don't require medical, shoot as well as a trained guard, can move quickly, and don't object to getting shot. when it comes to inexpensive forms of on-site HTR, drones are a much less expensive option.

i mean, for 30k nuyen, you can easily get 4 well-armed flying drones in your facility. for 20k, you could get 4 lightly-armed (ie taser) flying drones in your facility. and for 15k, you could get 3 well-armed or 4 lightly-armed ground drones in your facility.

which means you could have 1 HTR human being for one year, or you could have 4 flying HTR drones indefinitely, and you don't even need to maintain 2-3 shifts worth as you would for a human HTR team (meaning that it's probably more along the lines of 8-12 drones available for the cost of hiring 1 HTR personnel for a year... assuming said HTR personnel is getting only 30k a year).

for a small company that wants to have HTR available, but can't afford to keep a large dedicated security staff, this is a big deal... now all of a sudden, they just contract to a security company for an on-call spider (or perhaps keep 1 spider of their own) and 1-2 security guards who only need to call for help if something bad happens, rather than being trained paramilitary experts.

now, granted, the really really high security places will still have human HTR teams. but even they will probably supplement with combat drones.

oh, and for the record tyro, smartlink gives a bonus. it does not limit who or what can benefit from this bonus. as such, it applies to drones (as does laser sight). you are of course welcome to modify that for your own games.
McCummhail
QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 8 2009, 04:31 PM) *
why wouldn't there be? drones are dirt cheap, don't require medical, shoot as well as a trained guard, can move quickly, and don't object to getting shot. when it comes to inexpensive forms of on-site HTR, drones are a much less expensive option.
i mean, for 30k nuyen... snip
I won't debate the prevalence of drones in the security world.
I am challenging some of the assumptions of the topic.
Also, I was curious as to the need for Drone-only weapons.

From a logistics and maintenance perspective,
why would you have two largely identical guns
when one gun could serve the same purpose.

A standard weapon mount seems capable
of accepting any gun of the appropriate size.

I think the industry is more likely to design drones
that come packaged with built-in weapon options,
such as the i-ball and LS variant.

Do drones really ignore recoil?
Why are smartguns/laser sights not usable?
Jaid
QUOTE (McCummhail @ Sep 8 2009, 04:57 PM) *
Do drones really ignore recoil?


most people seem to use the optional rule that drones get bonus recoil compensation equal to their body, but the default is that vehicle mounted weapons suffer no recoil.

QUOTE
Why are smartguns/laser sights not usable?

i believe i just said they are usable.
Warlordtheft
I'd buy it that drones don't suffer recoil for most things, up to and including LMGs. The Drone can be programed to compensate and have shock absorbers that you would not find on a non cybered human. MMG's as well. HMG's, yeah they'd get some compensation-but the recoil on that would not be completely eliminated except on the larges of drones.
McCummhail
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Sep 8 2009, 05:09 PM) *
I'd buy it that drones don't suffer recoil for most things, up to and including LMGs. The Drone can be programed to compensate and have shock absorbers that you would not find on a non cybered human. MMG's as well. HMG's, yeah they'd get some-but there might still be issues.

Even small airborne drones ignore recoil?
I can see land-based drones with fixed mounts
having less issues with recoil than a metahuman,
but airborne recoil seems like it would matter.

QUOTE (Jaid)
i believe i just said they are usable.
Tyro says they are not usable. You say they are usable.
I am curious why? what criteria can I use to evaluate this?
Bleifalke
As far as for stationary security and surveillance goes I'd imagine drones be much more common then accual metahuman guards for reasons mentioned above. Add in military applications and you got a huge market. In 6th world, drone weaponry must be big bucks, with many specialised weapons, perhaps even custom made for specific drone types.

As far as rules go, just use default weapon types, decide ammo type and how much ammo can be realistically fitted into the drone without taking up space from the other components. Why spend time making up custom weapons (unless you do it for fun)?

Weapons normally fitted with clips would probably be converted with some sort of band fed mechanism, why use different small clips when you can essentialy store a BIG internal clip inside the drone? If the drone sported a closed bolt action sniper rifle or something as such, if would still include some integrated automatic reloading mechanism. What im trying to say is, just treat drone weapons like normal handheld weapons with the same modes of fire, but with out the need to manually reload clips or internal mags etc.
Tyro
QUOTE (McCummhail @ Sep 8 2009, 02:20 PM) *
<snip>
Tyro says they are not usable. You say they are usable.
I am curious why? what criteria can I use to evaluate this?

I'm working off of memory here. If someone could cite one way or the other, I'd appreciate it.
Jaid
as i said, the default rule is that smartlinks give a +2 dice pool bonus. since it does not say it only applies that dice pool bonus to a limited subset of potential users, that means it gives the bonus to all users unless otherwise specified.

nowhere in the description of agents, pilots or even sprites for that matter, does it state that they are unable to benefit from a smartlink. as such, should the drone have the appropriate equipment (it still requires an image link and smartgun link, which can be installed to a drone camera) it can benefit from a smartgun. the same applies for the laser sight, except that you don't need an image link/smartgun link to benefit from it (and it makes all kinds of sense anyways... you do realise that today, we shine lasers on stuff that we want self-guided missiles to run into, right? and that said missiles are basically drones?)
kigmatzomat
Technologically there is no reason smartlink would not add to drones. A coaxially mounted sensor provides additional parallax that would improve accuracy. Additionally the motion/position sensing feature of a smartlink gives positive confirmation of weapon alignment. Motors and gears don't always work exactly as planned so having explicit information on where the weapon is pointing can't be a bad thing.
Tyro
QUOTE (kigmatzomat @ Sep 8 2009, 05:02 PM) *
Technologically there is no reason smartlink would not add to drones. A coaxially mounted sensor provides additional parallax that would improve accuracy. Additionally the motion/position sensing feature of a smartlink gives positive confirmation of weapon alignment. Motors and gears don't always work exactly as planned so having explicit information on where the weapon is pointing can't be a bad thing.

Thank you for that. I was feeling a bit cheesy using smartlinks on drones; your explanation cut the cheese dodges the inevitable hail of tomatoes

What's the rating of a drone's camera? Equal to the drone's listed Sensor attribute?
Jaid
QUOTE (Tyro @ Sep 8 2009, 07:05 PM) *
What's the rating of a drone's camera? Equal to the drone's listed Sensor attribute?

generally speaking, yes. it can be modified, but the default camera is a rating equal to the drone's sensor rating.
Pedro
Hi all,

This is my first post here on the Dumpshock forums. I have played shadowrun since 2nd addition but took a pretty long break through 3rd. Now that 4th is out I have joined a new group and am starting up again.

I recently created my rigger character, attempting to learn the new system along the way. My GM has a few house rules concerning drones and weapons you guys might be interested in.

Large Drones: can use any weapon (Pending that their weapon mount can fit it)
Medium Drones: Can only use up to LMGs
Small Drones: Can only use up to SMGs

Ground Drones suffer recoil but have x2 (round up) Body as RC.
Aerial Drones suffer recoil but have x1 Body as RC.

With a set of rules like this its actually very important to equip drone weapons with RC. I have a Nissan Doberman that has 6 RC built into his Ares White Knight LMG, and then his body gives him 6 more RC (3x2) for a total of 12. Even so, when he opens fire with full bursts, he will loose it after the 2nd burst or so.

Also, I am finding it very difficult to setup drones properly for combat. Here are my main issues, perhaps you guys can help me figure out ways to solve them.

1) Most drones in 4th edition seem to not be as combat oriented as they were in previous editions. They have pretty low body and generally cant hold anything bigger then an LMG. I am looking in the Arsenal book and there is really only 1 potent combat drone (Mitsuhama Tomino) and it cost 350K and has a Availabilty of 24...good luck with that

2)A drones Pilot rating and system rating are basically the same. Thus, they can only run an autosoft program equal to or less then there pilot score. Sure you can upgrade your pilot program but you also need to make sure the drones response is upgraded as well. If the response is lower the the pilot rating all the programs on the drone run at the lower score. This makes it even more difficult since the GM needs to allow you to get access to better programs as well as the item needs to make proper response upgrades. All in all its alot of work. Then after that you need to get your hands on the sweet gun to mount it.

3) Even if a drone is good in combat its form of movement can be incredibly limiting. I hate to see the day my Crimson Samurai cant go up the stairs to support my team since wheeled vehicles are stopped by simple obstructions like that. A walking (anthromorphic) drone is the best bet but they don't really exist.

Maybe I am looking at rigging all wrong. I always though there were more of a heavy support class. They placed their well equiped and armored drones in positions to hold/herd the enemy. Now they seem not nearly as effective. Please prove me wrong.
McCummhail
QUOTE (Pedro @ Sep 8 2009, 11:56 PM) *
This is my first post here on the Dumpshock forums.
...
Maybe I am looking at rigging all wrong. I always though there were more of a heavy support class. They placed their well equiped and armored drones in positions to hold/herd the enemy. Now they seem not nearly as effective. Please prove me wrong.
Welcome to Dumpshock!
I find that the surveillance/reconnaissance angle of Drone rigging works really well in this edition.
Drone riggers also have the strengthened role of counter-drone capability.

In SR4 I have experienced a sharpening of the "Eggshells with Hammers" idiom.
Without reinforcing and significant upgrades, the drones don't hold up well to direct fire.
However, with dodge autosofts and heavy firepower you can mitigate this to a degree.

I don't think that drones (unless you have rigged out a full-vehicle)
can ever take point like a frackin big cybered troll.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Pedro @ Sep 8 2009, 11:56 PM) *
I hate to see the day my Crimson Samurai cant go up the stairs to support my team since wheeled vehicles are stopped by simple obstructions like that.


Smart Tires, p.106 Arsenal?
Earlydawn
I don't see why normal weapons couldn't be drone-mounted. The few armed land drones today use regular weapons placed in a special mount, as does the CROWS system on Strykers. Also, I don't think you'd need the fancy grenade launcher.. I would think that ammo cycling would be a standard feature of any kind of rotary smartgun.
Tyro
QUOTE (Earlydawn @ Sep 8 2009, 10:44 PM) *
I don't see why normal weapons couldn't be drone-mounted. The few armed land drones today use regular weapons placed in a special mount, as does the CROWS system on Strykers. Also, I don't think you'd need the fancy grenade launcher.. I would think that ammo cycling would be a standard feature of any kind of rotary smartgun.

The guns available are obviously geared towards people. You wouldn't have to change much; fluffwise, the weapons I'm asking for would probably just be a slightly modified version of existing weapons with a different market.

Unfortunately, ammo skip isn't (by RAW) standard in grenade launchers AFAIK.
Earlydawn
I'm actually trying hard to find the ammo skip function with no luck. I know I've seen it..
Tyro
QUOTE (Earlydawn @ Sep 9 2009, 12:21 AM) *
I'm actually trying hard to find the ammo skip function with no luck. I know I've seen it..

Arsenal, under weapon mods.
McCummhail

@Tyro, It seems the weapon system you are suggesting is standard in the in the Wuxing Crimson Samurai...
although there appears to be no stat block for it's standard weapon array.

BTW, what does a Mitsuhama Tomino look like? Is it a troll-sized gundam?
Pedro
QUOTE (McCummhail @ Sep 9 2009, 02:31 PM) *
BTW, what does a Mitsuhama Tomino look like? Is it a troll-sized gundam?


I found this picture online and I personally think this is the idea They are trying to get with the Tomino.

http://images.elfwood.com/art/i/g/igino/fpx_suit.jpg

Its heavy armored for high threat situations. Gundams look to clean cut and pretty to be in the shadowrun universe. This thing looks like its part terminator, part main battle tank. Also, it has no melee weapons since the book says its "not well suited for it".

Also, Thanks for the heads up on Smart Tires Tyro, I am so hitting those up.
McCummhail
QUOTE (Pedro @ Sep 9 2009, 11:41 AM) *
I found this picture online and I personally think this is the idea They are trying to get with the Tomino.

http://images.elfwood.com/art/i/g/igino/fpx_suit.jpg

Its heavy armored for high threat situations. Gundams look to clean cut and pretty to be in the shadowrun universe. This thing looks like its part terminator, part main battle tank. Also, it has no melee weapons since the book says its "not well suited for it".

Also, Thanks for the heads up on Smart Tires Tyro, I am so hitting those up.

I like the look of that.
I was positing Gundams as Yoshiyuki Tomino is the luminary that brought us the Gundam series.
SR having a lot of references, I was guessing this was one.
Something like this
Tyro
QUOTE (Pedro @ Sep 9 2009, 08:41 AM) *
<snip>
Also, Thanks for the heads up on Smart Tires Tyro, I am so hitting those up.

Actually, that was RunnerPaul. He beat me to it. I gave the book and section for the ammo skip system.
Falconer
What the game really needs is a 'drone adaptation' for weapons... make it use like 4 mod slots. Change the weapons feed to belt fed, remove manual controls, etc. Must be put on a smartgun. (that's a requirement of the smart firing system, so makes sense for all drones).

I'm not so worried about stuff like ammo skip system... as if it's important they can get a cylinder version of the weapon. Or, multiple ammo bay vehicle mod which can act as a form of ammo-skip/dual-feed solution if it's that important.

Quite frankly... most handheld weapons need two things... extended capacity 100rd ammo drums, and dual feed. It's the only way to get significant ammo capacity on say a drone mounted SMG (200 rds beats say ~40).


Pedro:
If you have 12 points or RC on the gun... there's no way you're ever taking a recoil penalty. It's refreshed every pass, and if you're using 20rds for suppressive fire there is no recoil penalty. (but the targets get to roll reaction + edge to avoid, or just drop prone, or reaction + dodge + edge on full defense).

You can only ever fire 10 or 9 bullets in a single initiative pass, so max needed RC is 9. (11 for hypervelocity)

You can't fire 2 6rd bursts unless you have a hypervelocity modified gun (which for unknown reasons isn't available for belted machine guns, only SMG's and AR's which aren't belted).
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (McCummhail @ Sep 8 2009, 04:20 PM) *
Even small airborne drones ignore recoil?
I can see land-based drones with fixed mounts
having less issues with recoil than a metahuman,
but airborne recoil seems like it would matter.


I would think the Pilot and targeting software (as advanced as it is) would adjust the drones thrust vector and such to negate the recoil by default.
Pedro
QUOTE (Falconer @ Sep 10 2009, 12:48 AM) *
Pedro:
If you have 12 points or RC on the gun... there's no way you're ever taking a recoil penalty. It's refreshed every pass, and if you're using 20rds for suppressive fire there is no recoil penalty. (but the targets get to roll reaction + edge to avoid, or just drop prone, or reaction + dodge + edge on full defense).

You can only ever fire 10 or 9 bullets in a single initiative pass, so max needed RC is 9. (11 for hypervelocity)

You can't fire 2 6rd bursts unless you have a hypervelocity modified gun (which for unknown reasons isn't available for belted machine guns, only SMG's and AR's which aren't belted).


Weapon recoil refreshes every initiative pass ant every new round? i must be totally blind.
Nanostar
QUOTE (McCummhail @ Sep 9 2009, 05:21 AM) *
Welcome to Dumpshock!
I find that the surveillance/reconnaissance angle of Drone rigging works really well in this edition.
Drone riggers also have the strengthened role of counter-drone capability.

In SR4 I have experienced a sharpening of the "Eggshells with Hammers" idiom.
Without reinforcing and significant upgrades, the drones don't hold up well to direct fire.
However, with dodge autosofts and heavy firepower you can mitigate this to a degree.

I don't think that drones (unless you have rigged out a full-vehicle)
can ever take point like a frackin big cybered troll.

and thats good.. gives the troll a real role to play.

in 3 drones were overpowered. With the rigger book you could build a host of killer drones that made samarai types nearly unneccessary. At least a sufficiently smart rules lawyer could... and i have 3 sufficiently smart muntkins in my group
Draco18s
QUOTE (Pedro @ Sep 13 2009, 08:53 PM) *
Weapon recoil refreshes every initiative pass ant every new round? i must be totally blind.


Yes, it does. It's why having four passes is AMAZING.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012