I was curious if any of you had allowed for these options, Initiation or Submersion, at character generation. If so, how did you handle it? Especially with the Build Point system.

Thanks!

Honestly, I never saw why initiation wasn't allowed at chargen in SR4. I'd charge 5 + (Grade x 1.5) (round up) BP per grade. The Ascesticism, Deed, and Meditation ordeals may not be taken to reduce this cost. Metamagic techniques cost 5 BP each at chargen. All normal limitations on maximum Initiate Grade and Magic attribute apply; yes this does mean you can start with a Magic attribute greater than 6 if you initiate at chargen, and yes you only pay the kicker for the final point.

I don't allow it off of chargen.

Yeah... Not in Chargen at our table either... if it was an option (in Chargen), there would be a cost for it already...

I don't allow it either, being able to pay for the extra magic attribute with BP seems like to much of an easy way out of earning it via karma.

I normally lean against allowing it, but if a player has a good concept that calls for it I'll usually allow a starting character to have grades of initiation or submersion. We are using karmagen in my group so we just charge the standard cost for it. If initiation is allowed for a starting character, group and deed discounts are allowed or denied based on the concept.

Under BP I don't think it should be allowed, due to the much higher price tag to increase Magic with Karma vs. BP. In the Karma system, though, I think it should be allowed.

My 2 cents.

Christ, magical characters are enough of a point sink, I can't even imagine trying to add Initiation in there too. Oi.

Especially considering that we've been told that almost every mage who has been practicing his art for more than a coupld of years is probably at least ( Grade 1 ), so does that mean that PCs are limited to being the village idiots or newbies of the Mage community?

If I still used the BP system, I'd really like Ancient History's solution, but than again remember I hard cap Magic...

The primary flaw with this is that Build Points follows a linear cost table, while what you propose would be a scaling cost table.

I use a custom Karma generation system, & allow Initiation at normal costs (Group / Ordeal discounts not available during generation), with a maximum Grade of Magic / 2 (round down), and additional Metamagics at normal cost with a maximum of Initiate Grade; please note that my games also disallow a Natural Magic in excess of 7, & Initiate Grade in excess of 5. Submersion works in an equivalently manner.

I would suggest using the exact same ruling for Build Points, except charge 10 BP per Initiate Grade or Metamagic.


Considering that with the Rules as Written, player characters can begin the game with a Force 4 Power Focus, 6 Magic attribute, 7 Spellcasting skill (+ specialization), bound spirits, 14 known spells, & dozens of other spell formulae...

I think "massive discontinuity between cannon setting & generation rules" would be more accurate. For this reason, I would strongly support Errating in a RAW method for Initiation at character generation; it simply does not make sense as it is now.

Ok, I'll admitt that I was employing more than alittle hyperbole there.

So, the RAW allows powerful mages at character creation, just not powerful mages that have explored the 'inner secrets' of initiation...


Anyways, I'm in favor of allowing initiation and submersion at character creation, and I also am in favor of the karma creation system. I do think SR3 allowed initiation at creation, if using the build point system, but I'd have to dig out my SR3 rules, and I have no desire to do so.

That's not bad, Ancient History, though I think the metamagic powers are a little cheap...

Level 1 = 7 BP = 14 Karma / Normally 13 Karma
Level 2 = 8 BP = 16 Karma / Normally 16 Karma

Metamagic Power = 5 BP = 10 Karma / Normally 15 Karma each

I'd raise them to about 8 each, because a slew of extra powers can be wicked at CharGen.

The extra limit I would impose is: you may not take more initiation grades until you are no more than 1 point away from your current maximum MAGic score.

In other words, no buying 2 levels of Initiation and leaving your MAGic at 5 just so you can have 4 Metamagic powers and cound as Level 2 Initate without having to buy up MAGic. (Somebody at our table originally pointed out that possibility and we all went "um...")

I personally don't see the problem with up to two levels of Initiation at Char Gen, given the rediculous number of points that start to sink into it. You have to get the BP/Karma from somewhere, and that's the point of the system. And those one or two levels aren't going to be game breaking, either. The max starting spells are still 2x Spellcasting. And Adepts (unless using the Power Points For Metamagic Powers optional rule) don't see any REAL benefit unless they pay those BP to buy up MAGic in the first place.

No, this one's a slam dunk. If you're using KarmaGen, go with the usual costs. If BP, Ancient History's system is simple and effective. I would just say NO buy-downs on price at CharGen, for self-obvious reasons.