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Aedosen
SOLVED! SEE POSTS BELOW. THANKS FOR THE HELP EVERYONE.

Unless I'm missing something, it seems like a standard 400bp starting character is way overpowered if they are a mage/shaman who's good at summoning.

For example, an Elf shaman with high charisma and summoning (built for summoning basically) skill can summon force 6 spirits pretty much indefinitely unless he gets unlucky on some drain resist checks.

Summon a Force 6 Spirit
- Elf rolls Magic + Summoning = 12
- average successes = 4
- Spirit rolls Force = 6
- average successes = 2
- average services owed to Elf = 2
- average drain value = 4
- Elf rolls Charisma + Willpower = 13 to resist drain
- average successes = 4
- Elf now has Force 6 spirit; took 1 combat round to summon; Elf took no drain

Force 6 Spirit
- has armor 12 (physical/stun damage value must exceed 12 to harm it at all)
- if damage value exceeds 12, spirit still gets 12 added to soak pool
- it can blast or bash or grapple targets until they are all dead
- Elf picks 2 optional spirit powers when summoned for added utility or deadliness
- attackers can use their Willpower to fight the spirit

This Elf shaman can summon up to 8 of these and unleash them all at once to lay waste to foes. A character not maximized for summoning could summon these spirits at force 4 or 5 and have 6 of them.

Am I missing something that would prevent spirit summoners from completely ruining every game with their spirit servants?
Blind Guardian
You're definitely missing something.

QUOTE (SR4A Page 188)
A magician may only have one unbound spirit summoned at any given time, and no more bound spirits than her Charisma attribute. Spirits on remote service and on standby count toward this total.

So, your hypothetical caster isn't going to be able to just summon up an endless horde of Force 6 spirits to steamroll any opposition. If a character wants to have more than one of these monstrosities at a time, then they have to bind the spirit, which requires a roll against the spirit's force x2. Drain equals the spirit's hits, not net hits. It also takes time ([force] hours), money ([force] x 500 nuyen), and effort (your gamemaster can impose a -2 penalty on all tests while a magician is controlling a bound spirit, similar to sustaining a spell).

Attacks of will against a spirit are used in place of the Astral Combat skill. It would be a bad thing to be on the astral plane and run into a hostile spirit of this magnitude if all you had at your disposal were attacks of will. That's why being dual-natured can be a drawback as well as an advantage. To attack a mundane target, a spirit will need to either materialize or possess a suitable vessel, depending on the spirit's tradition.

The forums have numerous threads on how to deal with spirits, but the Stunbolt spell and Stick n' Shock ammo in particular can do wonders to send them back where they came from. Spirits are certainly a powerful part of a magician's arsenal, but they're by no means an 'I win' button in the game.

Dragnar
Spirits are cheaper than drones. Mid-force spirits are easier to destroy than combat drones, though, and have less combat power.
High force spirits are better than all drones not directly controlled by a rigger, but have a realistic chance of knocking you out cold and becoming free every time you try to bind them.

So, yes, spirits are really useful and really powerful, but not really crazy overpowered.
eidolon
Banishing has gotten considerably easier (and is very, very different) in 4th edition, as well.

QUOTE (SR4A)
Banishing
The Banishing skill is used to sever the magical ties between a spirit and its summoner, freeing the spirit to return to its native metaplane. In order to banish a spirit, the magician makes a Banishing + Magic Opposed Test against the spirit’s Force (or Force + summoner’s Magic for bound spirits). Each hit reduces the services owed by that spirit by one. If the services are reduced to 0, the spirit returns to its home unless a magician immediately moves to summon it once again.


rather than

QUOTE (SR3)
BANISHING
Banishing destroys spirits, ending their presence on the physical and astral planes. Banishing is a Exclusive Complex Action. A magician of either tradition may banish a spirit of either type.
The banisher rolls a Conjuring Test against a target number equal to the spirit’s Force. If the banisher is also the spirit’s summoner, add Charisma dice to this test. Spirit foci and totem modifiers apply. The spirit rolls a Force Test against a target number equal to the banisher’s Magic Attribute.
If the spirit generates more successes, temporarily reduce the banisher’s Magic Attribute by 1 for each extra success. If the banisher generates more successes, reduce the spirit’s Force by 1 per net success. Ties mean neither side gains ground and the contest continues.
The winner decides whether there will be another round. If there is, neither combatant can do anything else until the winner’s next Combat Phase; they remain locked in magical combat.
Repeat the process until one participant overcomes the other (reducing Force or Magic Attribute to 0), or the winner of a round decides to break off the contest. If the spirit’s Force reaches 0, it is destroyed. If the banisher’s Magic Attribute drops to 0, the character takes Deadly stun damage and passes out; the spirit is free to go about its business. Additionally, the magician must immediately check for permanent Magic Loss (p. 160). Generally, when a spirit decides to break off a contest, it will flee. Circumstances may indicate different actions, however.
Magic Attribute or Force that is reduced by banishing is regained at a rate of 1 point per hour.
Kumo
Sr4:
QUOTE
Magician may only have one unbound spirit summoned at any given the time, and no more bound spirits than her Charisma attribute.

There is also suggestion, that controlling bound spirit may result in -2 modifier to all tests just like sustaining spell (if spirit is pissed of).
Dragnar
QUOTE (eidolon @ Sep 10 2009, 05:08 PM) *
Banishing has gotten considerably easier (and is very, very different) in 4th edition, as well.


That is correct, but it's still vastly more time consuming, more drain-causing and less reliable than just throwing manabolts around, and a manabolt spell is less expensive than the banishing skill and useful for lots of other situations to boot.
If banishing didn't cause drain and you rolled all rolls until either the mage gets knocked out or the spirit vanishes in a single complex action, then there would be some situations were banishing was useful. Most likely still not enough to justify buying the skill, but by RAW, the skill is literally worse than useless, because it isn't even the best cause of action for the single use it has.
Aedosen
QUOTE (Blind Guardian @ Sep 10 2009, 08:51 AM) *
You're definitely missing something.


So, your hypothetical caster isn't going to be able to just summon up an endless horde of Force 6 spirits to steamroll any opposition. If a character wants to have more than one of these monstrosities at a time, then they have to bind the spirit, which requires a roll against the spirit's force x2. Drain equals the spirit's hits, not net hits. It also takes time ([force] hours), money ([force] x 500 nuyen), and effort (your gamemaster can impose a -2 penalty on all tests while a magician is controlling a bound spirit, similar to sustaining a spell).

Attacks of will against a spirit are used in place of the Astral Combat skill. It would be a bad thing to be on the astral plane and run into a hostile spirit of this magnitude if all you had at your disposal were attacks of will. That's why being dual-natured can be a drawback as well as an advantage. To attack a mundane target, a spirit will need to either materialize or possess a suitable vessel, depending on the spirit's tradition.

The forums have numerous threads on how to deal with spirits, but the Stunbolt spell and Stick n' Shock ammo in particular can do wonders to send them back where they came from. Spirits are certainly a powerful part of a magician's arsenal, but they're by no means an 'I win' button in the game.


Everything in your first paragraph is taken into account in my first post. EDIT: No it's not! I read Guardian's post (below) and see the rule now. That solves this little riddle.

Basically, non-magical people are screwed when fighting spirits. Thanks for pointing out the Stick n' Shock ammo. I'd have to play around with it to see if a gunslinger adept with this ammo could survive a fight with 2/4/6/8 Force 6 spirits. I'm thinking the gunslinger wouldn't drop more than one of the spirits, but that's just my guess.

I found some references to the fact that if a summoner abuses her spirits a lot, the GM can have the spirits start to use Edge when she tries to summon them. That would help lower the number of spirits or maybe their force rating of the the spirits the example character could have on standby.

The biggest advantage, other than the fact that they are super strong in combat, is that the spirits don't cost any $ and, if the character is a maximized summoner as in the example above, don't cause much if any drain damage.
Aedosen
Omg, Blind Guardian, you rock. That's the missing piece of info! Thank goodness they put that rule in there.

QUOTE (Blind Guardian @ Sep 10 2009, 08:51 AM) *
You're definitely missing something.


So, your hypothetical caster isn't going to be able to just summon up an endless horde of Force 6 spirits to steamroll any opposition. If a character wants to have more than one of these monstrosities at a time, then they have to bind the spirit, which requires a roll against the spirit's force x2. Drain equals the spirit's hits, not net hits. It also takes time ([force] hours), money ([force] x 500 nuyen), and effort (your gamemaster can impose a -2 penalty on all tests while a magician is controlling a bound spirit, similar to sustaining a spell).

Attacks of will against a spirit are used in place of the Astral Combat skill. It would be a bad thing to be on the astral plane and run into a hostile spirit of this magnitude if all you had at your disposal were attacks of will. That's why being dual-natured can be a drawback as well as an advantage. To attack a mundane target, a spirit will need to either materialize or possess a suitable vessel, depending on the spirit's tradition.

The forums have numerous threads on how to deal with spirits, but the Stunbolt spell and Stick n' Shock ammo in particular can do wonders to send them back where they came from. Spirits are certainly a powerful part of a magician's arsenal, but they're by no means an 'I win' button in the game.

Blind Guardian
Always glad to help. It's rare that I get a chance to get an answer in before somebody else beats me to it. Being online at off-peak hours of my days off seems to help, though. grinbig.gif
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Dragnar @ Sep 10 2009, 10:16 AM) *
That is correct, but it's still vastly more time consuming, more drain-causing and less reliable than just throwing manabolts around, and a manabolt spell is less expensive than the banishing skill and useful for lots of other situations to boot.
If banishing didn't cause drain and you rolled all rolls until either the mage gets knocked out or the spirit vanishes in a single complex action, then there would be some situations were banishing was useful. Most likely still not enough to justify buying the skill, but by RAW, the skill is literally worse than useless, because it isn't even the best cause of action for the single use it has.


I'd argue that manabolting spirits rather than banishing them would be more likely to earn you the spirit bane quality. You're actively trying to dissipate the spirit at that point rather than end its service to the current master and force it to flee back to the metaplanes.
Apathy
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Sep 10 2009, 12:57 PM) *
I'd argue that manabolting spirits rather than banishing them would be more likely to earn you the spirit bane quality. You're actively trying to dissipate the spirit at that point rather than end its service to the current master and force it to flee back to the metaplanes.

I think this is reading too much into things.

There's nothing in the rules that indicates that manabolting is more likely to earn spirit bane than banishing. They're not even your spirits, so there shouldn't be that much of an expectation that you should have to take care of them. And the book doesn't really say whether spirits experience pain the same way we do, or that they don't find banishing painful/uncomfortable. I tend to reserve something as extreme as spirit bane for really extraordinary actions abusing one's own spirits.
Bleifalke
So a spirit has 2xF armor AND takes no dmg if the dmg code is below the armor value? Did the devs smoke heroin while writing?

So what your saying is if I run into a F6 spirit an assault cannon blast would bounce off its armor? This is gonna get houseruled away asap if i ever get around to be GM of SR4.
eidolon
You're certainly free to do that. Part of the fluff and flavor has always been that spirits are bad news to somebody that can't deal with magical threats, because so much of Shadowrun is that sort of "prepare for eventualities; think there will be spirits, then hire/take a mage" type of assumption.

Really, it's just up to how you want to run the game. Do you want to emphasize the "like for like" aspect of Shadowrun (Hacker to combat matrix threats, Mage to combat magical threats), or do you want to level the playing field for all?

kzt
QUOTE (Bleifalke @ Sep 10 2009, 01:35 PM) *
So what your saying is if I run into a F6 spirit an assault cannon blast would bounce off its armor? This is gonna get houseruled away asap if i ever get around to be GM of SR4.

It's not such a huge deal if you are fighting people who are reasonably equipped. 4 Alphas with APDS and a few net successes will do a number on them. If you are fighting gangers it's all over. You just wait for the screaming to stop.

Depending on the game it isn't such a huge deal. But if you get some crazy who summons up a F8-12 spirit you'd better have some people with spells or anti-tank weapons.

That's one reason why 100% mage teams are really tough.

But yeah, if you don't like it you could change it.
Bleifalke
1% of the population is awakened, say about half of that 1% are mages. In my interpretation of the 6th world, few runner teams even have an awakened member.

I think i'll make it so that the spirit keeps Fx2 armor but ignores AP mods instead of just ignore all dmg. Because DV modifiers for bursts and net hits won't count towards 'cracking' the spirit armor, correct? As i understand its only the base dmg of the weapon thats compared to its armor when you determine if its immune or not? What about AP mods from APDS etc? I read the immunity critter rule and I don't know if its to be included or not when determining if its immune to the attack.
DWC
Spirit immunity is no different from vehicular armor.

The AP of the attack does apply to the spirit's immunity to natural weapons, just like the net hits apply to the DV for the purposes of penetration. That means the assault cannon round, with a DV of 10 and an AP of -5 will do dirty things to the F6 spirit. The spirit's 12 points of hardened armor from Immunity gets reduced to 7 points by the cannon round, more than allowing the base DV of 10 (plus hits) to pierce the armor. An assault rifle loaded with APDS, firing wide bursts to reduce the spirit's defense pool will probably suffice for places you can't bring an assault cannon.

A Force 9 manabolt also works, with the notable benefit of having no availability issues, no concealability issues, and causing a statistically meaningless amount of drain.
Ravor
Something else to remember is that ( Force 6+ ) spirits are pretty fragging rare per the setting if not the actual rules.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Bleifalke @ Sep 10 2009, 01:13 PM) *
1% of the population is awakened, say about half of that 1% are mages. In my interpretation of the 6th world, few runner teams even have an awakened member.

By your logic, only 1 out of 100 people in an Exclusive Awakened Bar are actually awakened.

The 1% figure is a worldwide estimate of Awakened. It has no relivance whatsoever in small-scale measurements like the runner community. Yes, there are less Awakened 'runners than there are mundane, but that is about as far as you can go.

QUOTE
I think i'll make it so that the spirit keeps Fx2 armor but ignores AP mods instead of just ignore all dmg. Because DV modifiers for bursts and net hits won't count towards 'cracking' the spirit armor, correct? As i understand its only the base dmg of the weapon thats compared to its armor when you determine if its immune or not? What about AP mods from APDS etc? I read the immunity critter rule and I don't know if its to be included or not when determining if its immune to the attack.

Retarded ruling, for various reasons. You clearly have no idea how Hardened Armor works - I suggest actually reading it. I will give you a hint: modified Damage Value (excluding burst/automatic fire modifiers) vs. modified Armor Rating.
Bleifalke
Ok, thanks, I thought at first that only the base DV of the weapon was compared to the armor, but adding net hits and AP mods, it's not so bad anymore. I think I'll keep the RAW after all.

Ofcourse, magical attacks will be best, but my runner team has maybie 5 members (very low chance of having a mage) and will meet potentially 100s of "opponents" through their career (ie they WILL encounter spirits eventually) therefore I like the idea of mundane ppl having the ability to deal with it even if its not optimal.
Ravor
As much as I hate it, SnS works wonders on spirits per RAW. However given that the ruling doesn't make anymore sense than allowing a Water Spirit to drown or a Fire Spirit to burn many DMs hosuerule it away.
Bleifalke
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 10 2009, 10:32 PM) *
By your logic, only 1 out of 100 people in an Exclusive Awakened Bar are actually awakened.

The 1% figure is a worldwide estimate of Awakened. It has no relivance whatsoever in small-scale measurements like the runner community. Yes, there are less Awakened 'runners than there are mundane, but that is about as far as you can go.

My logic about 1 in 100 is not flawed, your comparison of it to a "all awakened bar" however is very flawed. There is no social or economical incentive for magicians to have a higher reprensentation in runner teams then they do in the rest of scociety. Mages services are in extreemly high demand in security, military, entertainment etc, there is no reason to believe that most mages go off and become runners.

QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 10 2009, 10:32 PM) *
Retarded ruling, for various reasons. You clearly have no idea how Hardened Armor works - I suggest actually reading it. I will give you a hint: modified Damage Value (excluding burst/automatic fire modifiers) vs. modified Armor Rating.

No need to be so rude about it. I don't know much of the SR4 rules, thats why I asked the question here on this forum. If you don't wanna answer, thats fine, there is no need to call my lack of knowledge retarded, just don't respond instead.
DWC
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 10 2009, 03:41 PM) *
As much as I hate it, SnS works wonders on spirits per RAW. However given that the ruling doesn't make anymore sense than allowing a Water Spirit to drown or a Fire Spirit to burn many DMs hosuerule it away.


I deliberately skipped bringing that up, because it's a perfect case of the rules being extremely clear cut and the situation being extremely stupid.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Bleifalke @ Sep 10 2009, 01:33 PM) *
Ok, thanks, I thought at first that only the base DV of the weapon was compared to the armor, but adding net hits and AP mods, it's not so bad anymore. I think I'll keep the RAW after all.

Perhaps I should clarify: Hardened Armor Rules as Written work, but they Suck. Your idea of how to alter it was even worse.

I suggest, for a variety of reasons, that Hardened Armor is treated as "automatic Hits" on Damage Resistance Tests, with Armor Penetration applying normally (it is still Armor, after all).

Immunity to [Insert Something Here] provides Hardened Armor against [Insert Something Here] equal to the Magic attribute (opposed to RAW Magic x 2).

End result is Hardened Armor becomes both more & less powerful (much better soaking, but lower threshold to inflict damage & more affected by AP). More importantly, it is now streamlined & actually makes a bit of sense (unlike the previous all-or-nothing type effect, of which there are exceptionally few in Shadowrun, all of which I suggest altering or removing).
Ravor
Actually I can see Mages trending more towards a life in the Shadows, after all, why in the nine hells should I be forced to listen to the mere ape who has no idea of the wonders I've seen blather on about how I have to do my job? Does the worm not realise that with a mere stray thought I could turn his brain into mush?

Remember people, power breeds arogence, especially dangerous power, and while the corps have to put up with alot of crap a mage throws their way, there are limits.
Bleifalke
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 10 2009, 10:49 PM) *
Perhaps I should clarify: Hardened Armor Rules as Written work, but they Suck. Your idea of how to alter it was even worse.

I suggest, for a variety of reasons, that Hardened Armor is treated as "automatic Hits" on Damage Resistance Tests, with Armor Penetration applying normally (it is still Armor, after all).

Immunity to [Insert Something Here] provides Hardened Armor against [Insert Something Here] equal to the Magic attribute (opposed to RAW Magic x 2).

End result is Hardened Armor becomes both more & less powerful (much better soaking, but lower threshold to inflict damage & more affected by AP). More importantly, it is now streamlined & actually makes a bit of sense (unlike the previous all-or-nothing type effect, of which there are exceptionally few in Shadowrun, all of which I suggest altering or removing).

Yes, I agree, your suggestion is much better then mine. Still havent decided if I'm gonna use yours or the RAW though. Think I need to run a few games first before I decide.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Bleifalke @ Sep 10 2009, 01:45 PM) *
My logic about 1 in 100 is not flawed, your comparison of it to a "all awakened bar" however is very flawed. There is no social or economical incentive for magicians to have a higher reprensentation in runner teams then they do in the rest of scociety. Mages services are in extreemly high demand in security, military, entertainment etc, there is no reason to believe that most mages go off and become runners.

So, while there is no insentive whatsoever for awakened individuals to work in Fast Food or Waste Management, a full 1% will be awakened who naturally gravitate towards those fields anyways.

And 'running, where Awakened talent is just as demanded as 'security, military, entertainment etc', there will never be more than 1% Awakened.


No, your logic is very flawed. I simply took it to an extreme to make such flaws obvious, which you then chose to ignore.
Anythingforenoughnuyen
I believe that there was some talk about this in an earlier thread. There is a trick you can do where you summon a spirit with the power to cast one of your spells. And then have the spirit fire away with a combat spell at a force you could not cast without serious repercussions. If my memory serves the math on that was quite impressive and it was definitely the way to go as far as getting the most out of your conjuring.

AFE nuyen.gif
Bleifalke
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 10 2009, 10:55 PM) *
So, while there is no insentive whatsoever for awakened individuals to work in Fast Food or Waste Management, a full 1% will be awakened who naturally gravitate towards those fields anyways.

And 'running, where Awakened talent is just as demanded as 'security, military, entertainment etc', there will never be more than 1% Awakened.


No, your logic is very flawed. I simply took it to an extreme to make such flaws obvious, which you then chose to ignore.


This is what i wrote in the first post regarding mages in runner teams:
"1% of the population is awakened, say about half of that 1% are mages. In my interpretation of the 6th world, few runner teams even have an awakened member."
I didnt quote any exact % of runners beeing mages, you assumed something I didn't write. You assumed i said only 1% of runner were awakened, I never said that, i just said few runner teams have them. In my second post I said that mages were in high demand for security, military etc, this implies increased concentration of awakened in those fields (it goes without saying that mages are in high demand in runner teams so I didn't write that). So far it seems we are of the same opinion, but are misunderstanding eachother.

Even if you ten-double the concentration of awakened in runner teams and assume that the standard team is composed of 5 members, half the teams have some sort of awakened in them and about a forth have a mage in them. That is if you can assume that half the awakened are a mage/mystic adept the other half adepts, TMs or whatever, this is just my assumption. And I think that ten-double is abit much, maybie around five times as much are more realistic. There still alot of teams lacking magic support, which was the only thing I said in my first post. Never was my logic flawed, you just choose to interpreit, and attack, stuff I never explicitly commented about.
Cain
Doc Funk put it this way: about 1 in every 100 people are medical doctors. Doctors tend to gravitate towards certain professions and areas. So, while it's almost certain you know a few doctors, they're not going to have an even distribution across the population.
Bull
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 10 2009, 09:17 PM) *
Doc Funk put it this way: about 1 in every 100 people are medical doctors. Doctors tend to gravitate towards certain professions and areas. So, while it's almost certain you know a few doctors, they're not going to have an even distribution across the population.


Exactly.

In the 6th world, if you're a mage and want to make good money, you pretty much have 3 options. A) Work for a corp, probably as a security mage. B) Learn enchanting and become a talismonger and spend all your time brewing up talesma. And C) Become a Shadowrunner.

Sure, a few will go on to do something else, or go somewhere where they won't get good money. But the vast majority of magicians are gonna end up in one of those 3 places. So, while there's only a few thousand mages running around Seattle, Shadowrunners are going to run into them on a regular basis.

Same goes for metahumans, especially trolls, since they're such a low percentage of the population as well. If you're a Troll, chances are pretty good that unless you're very, very lucky, you're gonna end up working as a Guard (Body Guard, Bouncer, Security, etc), a Ganger, or a Shadowrunner. And again, Shadowrunners are going to encounter these on a regular basis, and there's a good chance you'll get at least one on every Runner team.

Bull
Krypter
I'm with Bleifalke on the long odds of shadowrunner mages. People gravitate to work that is lucrative and safe. Mages can make a lot of money in entertainment, trideo, law, medicine, management, heck even military work is safer and probably more lucrative in the long run than being an underclass SINless hunted criminal. Few Shadowrunners retire, from what I hear. Consequently the percentage of runners who are mages may be higher than the general population, and much higher than garbage collectors, but still much lower than in the fields mentioned earlier.
eidolon
They can...if they have a SIN. If they are in and of the system. Luck of the draw birth circumstances apply to everyone, mundane and awakened alike.

And if you don't think that an awakened person could be down and stay down, try to tell me that there aren't brilliant kids growing up in our world never getting to know what they could have achieved if only they had been born at the right place at the right time instead of the wrong one. Same thing.

A hacker could make good, safe money working for a corp. Why would one be a 'runner?

A sammy could make good, safe money working for a corp. Why would one be a 'runner?

" rigger "

" face "

If you can come up with an answer for any one of those questions, then you can come up with an answer for why a mage would be in the shadows.


Bull
Frankly, the fact that anyone with any skills or talents, regardless of SIN, ends up Shadowrunning is something of a suspension of disbelief, as is the idea that most runners wouldn't take their first couple fat paychecks and o retire, or pay to get a real SIN.

<shrug>

If you can't accept that a lot of Mages would gravitate toward running for the money simply because there are safer alternatives, well... Eep. You're basically saying you can't accept the basic premise behind the game. smile.gif
Tyro
Shadowrunning means never having to say "I'm sorry" nyahnyah.gif

'Runners get to do all sorts of fun nasty sadistic things on a regular basis. The shadows are a haven for the dysfunctional.

Also consider anti-establishment types - free spirits, anarchists, eco-freaks, pick a flavor.

The shadows offer FREEDOM. Freedom to be shot at on a regular basis, freedom to often worry seriously about making rent... but also freedom of choice.

Also, don't forget the moonlighters. Who's to say you can't be a talismonger AND feed your thrill addiction on weekends? Bodyguard or bounce and take under the table jobs on your days off? Maybe you got caught moonlighting (say, selling entry codes while working security for a corp and got blacklisted) and can't work legit anymore. Getting a "black" corporate SIN erased AND a new one created is a lot more expensive than just creating an identity where none existed before.
Dragnar
People seem to think 1 in 100 is a low number, but looking at professions (or even profession fields), it's actually not. Doctors have already been brought up, but the relation is true for almost all studied jobs: There are actually less than 1 in 100 doctors, architects, university-grade chemists, whatever.
So while a magically active person is in the top field, competing for well paying jobs, simply by virtue of being awakened, he's by no means something special. And there just as there are lots and lots of really boring dead-end jobs in studied fields, there are most likely lots and lots of boring, dead-end jobs in magical fields (being the guy casting entertainment for magical special effects in some third rate soap opera, for example).

And there are quite some university-grade chemists brewing crystal meth and E for illegal sale. Enough that the crime syndicates don't have to fear their supply drying up any time soon. Simply because they pay ten times of what Bayer would give them.
And I don't believe there aren't any greedy mages...
Bull
It's actually 1 in 1000, BTW, that is magically active to some small degree. This includes things that aren't really covered under PC rules, but should be (Minor magical talents, basically). Inly 1 in 10,000, IIRC, is a full mage.

Bull
Dragnar
Weren't those the old SR2 (or even 1) numbers? Thanks to the rising mana curve, those numbers grew steadily during the editions. AFAIK, the number was "1 in 100 is magical, including people with horribly low amounts of macial power like guys with spirit knack" in SR3 and rose to "1 in 100 with usable magical power, ie: a magician, mystic adept or adept" in SR4.
McAllister
The only way to preserve my personal sanity while watching the Harry Potter movies was to classify them in my mind as a series inspired by, but by no means directly connected to, the novels with the same name.

Similarly, the only way for me to maintain my perspective on the 6th world is to essentially ignore the rarity of the Awakened by assuming that the percentage of people alive to-day who can quickly and reliably crack a safe is around the same as (if not lower than) the percentage of people in the 6th world who can summon a Force 4+ spirit, and yet precautions are taken against safecracking. If security forces need a mage, they find one; after all, he's not about to go work at the stuffer shack.
kzt
QUOTE (Dragnar @ Sep 10 2009, 11:14 PM) *
Weren't those the old SR2 (or even 1) numbers? Thanks to the rising mana curve, those numbers grew steadily during the editions. AFAIK, the number was "1 in 100 is magical, including people with horribly low amounts of macial power like guys with spirit knack" in SR3 and rose to "1 in 100 with usable magical power, ie: a magician, mystic adept or adept" in SR4.

No the old SR1 numbers were that 1:100 was a mage, with about 10% being fully trained, capable and effective. Somewhere between 3-4 million in the entire world were serious, fully capable and trained mages in 2051 (or whenever Grimoire was set).

Adepts and limited mages were extra and not included in these numbers.
Cain
And then there was Magic In The Shadows, which had 1% of all people being magical, most of which were full mages.
Bleifalke
@At Bull and Cain, what you say is correct and in agreement to what I said earler: the concentration of awakened runner is higher then the global average concentration.

But, even if you increase the bias towards running as an awakened by a ridiculous magnitude there is simply to few of them to for all runner teams.

@Dragnar yes 1 in 100 results in alot of people, but awakened is not something you can compare to a doctor, first of all, were talking about mages so now its 1 in 200 AT BEST, but lets assume that ratio for now. Mages gets drawn to more populated fields and more different fields then doctors who only work in only one field (and you dont exacly see hospitals at every street corner do you? In Stockholm there lives over 1 million and we have like 4 proper hospitals). Add that to the fact that awakened were mostly regular ppl before their magic manifested, not everyone wants to be a hero or have the guts/bravery/foolishness/mindset to put themself in a physical danger every day by beeing in security, shadowrunning, military, organised crime etc, risking getting killed. Most are just normal people, finding job at magical university faculties, trid, research facilites, industry (shape [material] spell anyone) and also in all other mundane sectors of work, because I belive first a mage is a person, secondly hes an awakened. I think his personality and interests rule him more than the fact that he can cast stunball, and he has options of making money without risking getting shot every day he will probably take it. A few people have a different mindset, a few ppl live outside society, these are the people who become runners, just as much from social dynamics as what accual skills the runner has.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Bull @ Sep 11 2009, 05:03 AM) *
It's actually 1 in 1000, BTW, that is magically active to some small degree. This includes things that aren't really covered under PC rules, but should be (Minor magical talents, basically). Inly 1 in 10,000, IIRC, is a full mage.

Bull


Where did you get these numbers?
According to Street Magic, 1% is Awakened in some way.
This includes all forms of magical talent (full mages, adepts, mystic adepts, spell/spirit knacks, astral sight and people who've gone stark, raving mad from their Awakening).

If we assume that 1 in 10.000 is a full-fledged magician with Magic 4+ (which would mean 1% of the 1% Awakened), that's 100 truly capable mages per million.
Which means that there would be 300 of those in Seattle if it had an average distribution of mages.
Which i frankly don't believe.
It's nonsensical to assume that a city with massive megacorp presence and probably the biggest runner scene in North America doesn't draw a disproportionately large percentage of magical talent.
Numbers will be much higher for Seattle.
The opportunities for moneymaking will draw Awakened from across the continent, in fact from all over the world.

Even today, 3rd world nations suffer massive "brain drain", meaning that many highly qualified citizens choose to leave the country and find work in developed nations.
The situation of developing countries hasn't got any better in SR, in fact it's even worse than today.

So it's absolutely plausible to assume that regions such as Western Africa, Southeast and Central Asia, Oceania, the Carribean and Latin America are subject to a massive exodus of Awakened and that the big sprawls of industrial nations have a noticeably heightened percentage of Awakened.
Your average security wage mage or Awakened runner will most likely be a -likely illegal- immigrant from a third world nation, whereas many of the domestic Awakened population will pursue careers both safe and lucrative, such as talismonging/alchemy, arcane research, magical healing, SFX magic, esoteric wellnes and the like.
Unless they fail at college (or don't qualify in the first place), which means that they end up either in a mundane job, set up wards (lucrative, but terribly boring) or fall through the cracks and end up in the shadows.
Or probably they had one of the better Awakened jobs, but are such fundamental nutcases (read : had the 35BP of flaws that seem to be the average on this and many other boards) that they became intolerable to their employers and have to work freelance now.
Which, once more, means that they may be tempted to work in the shadows at least on an infrequent basis.


This does not mean that all runner teams will include a mage.
But if you want to make it to the top, you need magical support in some form or the other.
I'm sure there's a lot of entirely mundane teams around.
But i'm also sure that there will be a lot of "sams" who are merely thugs with a few implants and a cheap SMG, or hackers who are just script kiddies.
This issue could be adressed more in the background description, but i see no reason why PC runner teams shouldn't be the exception to this rule, or why corporate installations should only prepare to deal with the wannabes.
For my game, the certainly significant number of second-tier runner posers is mostly insignificant, unless the PCs happen to run into them.
darthmord
QUOTE (Bull @ Sep 11 2009, 01:03 AM) *
It's actually 1 in 1000, BTW, that is magically active to some small degree. This includes things that aren't really covered under PC rules, but should be (Minor magical talents, basically). Inly 1 in 10,000, IIRC, is a full mage.

Bull


Bull, 1 in 1000 would be 0.1%, not 1%.

1% of the population (assuming it was 10 Billion people), would be 100,000,000 people (yes, that's 100 million people).
Bull
You know, I'll be damned if I can remember where I read that now. <shrug> If Street Magic says 1%, then it's 1%. And at 1%, damn, you're just TRIPPING over mages. At that rate, I don't see how it's even a question that there would be a mage on every Shadowrunner team. vVen assuming a 50/50 split with Adepts, this means there are 150,000+ Spell Casters in Seattle alone. smile.gif

Bull
Bleifalke
150 000, thats for 30 million going by the percentage you quoted, hardly overwhelming. And imagine how many of those that have no brain or no talent, or no will to improve, the number of fairly competent mages will be far less. Beeing born awakend is not equal to beeing smart/talented enought to be usefull. how many of the awakened have 1 magic, 2 logic and 2 willpower? How many have 2 magic and 3 logic/willpower? Not everyone runs around with 5+ magic, 5+ willpower and 4+ in sorcery and conjuring skill group.

I'm holding firm to my estimation that about one forth of runner teams have a mage, but thats okay because they will be equally rare in the opposition. What I wanna do is emphasize the rareness of magic, so that when the player DO encounter it, it will be more special event with a more significant impact on the story. I want the mage encounter to be something they remeber. I don't want to use optimistic statistics and award every runner team, every army squad, every security patrol with one or more mages. If fireballs become as common as bullets they loose their charm.

Basically I wanna use magic as a cool storytelling tool, that the players think "OMG this is awesome" rather than something you use or see everyday, if that happenes magic looses its "magic".
Warlordtheft
So let's go with that anology of 1% magically active. Adepts would be half of those. I think in earlier editions, many mages went untrained. Not so anymore (Amongst the sinners anyway), due to testing.

In this case out of 100,000 people:
500 would be physads.
500 would be mages.

In that same population of 100,000, what are the percentages that work security, or shadows?
Now lets make assumptions:
Assume 8% of the 100,000 work in security (8,000).
Assume 2% of the 100,000 are criminals (2,000).
of which 0.1% of the 100,000 are professional shadowrunners (100).

Assume 80% of mages are in security (400).
Assume 10% of mages are into crime (50).
of which 5% of mages are professional shadowrunners (25)
Assume 10% of mages are into something else, like reasearch or talismongering (50).

Following these assumptions, 1 in 4 (25 mage runners out of 100 runners) shadowrunners could be a mage.
Ravor
Actually it's not a 50/50 split between Mages and Adepts, it's a split between ALL of the different types of Awakened, so the actual number of Mages are decreasing over time as opposed to rising as the setting demands.
kzt
Presumably because the increasing mana level has made mages rarer over time. Or something.... question.gif
Warlordtheft
I assumed 50/50. Just like the astro physisicists trying to figure out the chance of an advance civilization, adjust the assumptions and the numbers can go up an down significantly (from 1 or 2, to hundreds of thousands). This would apply to the other assumptions as well (like the % of criminals).

I checked both SR4A and Street magic. They do not list the percentage of awakened in 2070. Assuming it increased, the number of full blown magicians would increase as well. Change the % awakened, and go through that calculation again.
Ravor
QUOTE (Street Magic; page 8 )
Fact is, even in our modern times, real magicians are rare. Everybody’s heard the statistics that say approximately one percent of people are magically active, but like most statistics, that’s not really accurate. For one thing, that number encompasses everybody who has a shred of magical talent, from minor-league adepts all the way up to spellslingers with enough mojo to give dragons a second thought about snacking on them. Just because one percent of people are magical doesn’t meant that one in every hundred people you see on the street is secretly reading your mind.


So yeah, 1% of the population is Awakened, and yes we have to take everyone out of the figure, including people with useless spell knacks, ect...
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