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Playing Games
One, how many people in the US Milatry are in Califonia,during time of peace.

I think it is 50,000.I am not sure.

But,I would like to know the rough numbers of all branches.

What numbers for for unit sizes,from armored(tanks, artillery),fighters,bombers,soldiers,both normal,and support.

How many support ships are in a large,and small carrier group.

The basic idea is that,when the federal forces ditch California,a crasimatic/power hungery man,declares that he will not leave California.But he will not join Traders.So, he enters a deal with California to defend,it from hostile actions,but not insite hostile actions.Seeing as he could control enough forces to defend more than one area he starts selling off serves,baring in mind that they would side with California.


Mars, gets many of the navel bases,takes control over the CFS coast gaurd duty,a large part of it's nation's defence.They are given large amounts of money,power,land,and a large population to draw freash meat from.
mfb
...you mean Ares?
Playing Games
different, goals,personalities....

Ares builds weapons for other nations.In the end making themselves less needed. Mars,makes it cheeper for you have an armed force,but you will need them.

Mars,gives you a fish.

Ares,teaches you how to fish.

By the way,the leader is magically active,and has been so since the mid 20's.He is a shaman of sorts.His totem would be Mars,the planet/god.
Zazen
He also happens to be Colonel Kurtz.
Nath
According to the Census Bureau, there is around 105-110,000 members of the armed forces in California: 7,500 for the Army, 80,000 for the Navy and Marines, 21,000 for the Air Force. Add 60,000 with civilian personnel. Of course, strictly speaking even in time of peace the seamen are not always in California.

I had some time to waste to day so I made the count. That's not fully relevant in SR since we don't know how much the armed forces were reduced betwen now and the Californian independance, and where did the units formerly stationned in the NAN territories were moved. Still...

AIR FORCE
- Vandenberg : 14th Air Force / US Space Air Force HQ, 30th Space Wing (missile testing and booster launching)
- Fesno air Terminal : 144th Fighter Wing (F-16, C-26)
- March AFB : 144th Fighter Wing detachment 1 (F-16), 452nd Air Mobility Wing (reserve) (C-141, C-135), Air Refueling Wing (guard) (KC-135R)
- Beale AFB : 9th Reconnaissance Wing (U-2, T-38), 940th Air Refuelling Wing (reserve) (C-135)
- Los Angeles : 311th Corps Support Command
- Moffet Federal AF : 7th Psychological Operations Group (Airborne), 129th Rescue Wing (Reserve) (HC-130P, HH-60G)
- Travis AFB : Expeditionary Mobility Task Force HQ, 60th Air Mobility Wing (C-5, KC-10A), 615th Air Mobility Operations Group, 349th Air Mobility Wing (reserve)
- Camp Pendleton : 1394th Deployment Support Brigade
- Mare Island : 1397th Transportation Terminal Brigade
- Mountain View : 351st Civil Affairs Command (commands 322nd and 364th Civil Affairs Brigade which are based in Hawai and Oregon)
- McClellan AFB : 4th Air Force HQ (reserve)
- Pt Magu : 146th Airlift Wing (guard) (C-130)

ARMY
11th Armored Calvalry Regiment and National Training Center, Ft Irwin
91st Division (Training Support), Ft Baker
- 1st Brigade (Battle command staff training), Cp Parks
- 3rd Brigade (Training support), Oakland
63rd Regional Support Command (reserve), Los Alamitos
- 4th Brigade (Combat Service Support) / 104th Regiment (reserve) Cp Parks
- 653rd Area Support Group (reserve), Moreno Valley
- 2nd Medical Brigade (reserve), Hamilton Fd
40th Infantry Division (Mechanized) (guard) : HQ in Los Alamitos, units stationned in Long Beach, San Diego, Modesto, Fresno, Los Angeles and Vallejo

MARINE
I Marine Expeditionary Force (I MEF)
- Cp Pendleton : Force HQ, 1st Marine division HQ, 1st Marine Regiment (Infantry), 5th Marine Regiment (infantry), 11th Marine Regiment (artillery), Marine Aircraft Group 39 (helicopter)
- Twentynine Palms: Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center, 7th Marine Regiment (Infantry), 1st Force Service Support Group
- Miramar : Marine Aircraft Group 11 (Strike & Attack) and 16 (Helicopter), Marine Wing Support Group 37, Marine Air Control Group 38

11th (USS Lincoln group), 13th (USS Nimitz group) and 15th (USS Constellation group) Marine Expeditionary Units (all Special Operations Capable), Camp Pendleton

23rd Marine Regiment (Infantry) (reserve), San Bruno
Marine Aircraft Group 46 (Strike, & Helicopter) (reserve), Miramar

NAVY
Too much... San Diego hosts four battle groups : USS Abraham Lincoln, Constellation, Nimitz and Carl Vinson, totalizing two air carriers (the Lincoln is based in Everett, the Vinson in Norfolk, but their fleets are in San Diego), four amphibious assault ships, a dozen of cruisers, twenty or thirty destroyers... plus a submarine squadrons, the 1st and 31st Naval Construction regiment in Port Hueneme and air units at Leemore, Whidbey Island and North Island), Naval Special Warfare at Coronado... Maybe I'll make the exact count later.

As a reminder, in canon SR, Aztlan took San Diego. Really an easy prey, ain't it ? smokin.gif 'kay, I reread NAGNA and SoNA, Wahsington is said to have move all the naval forces from California to Hawai and Seattle as soon as the Californian congress voted seccession.
Adarael
Because I live by them, lemmie point out a few things about the idea of invading north of LA...

1st: Coastal. This will be a major no-go, primarily because the CalFree would never let Point Mugu or Point Hueneme be taken; there's a naval (ship) base and a naval (air) base there, and they're *big*. Very, very big. Inland they'd also have a great deal of problems, given that one has to come over a mountain range to strike at Camarillo and Oxnard (the two nearest cities to LA, on the 101 freeway). Seeing as how Oxnard and Camarillo connect directly to the aforementioned military bases, it'd be very hard to just 'sneak by'. There are also direct rail lines between all of these places.

Further north, one reaches my home - Santa Barbara. Doesn't look like much, but we've got a few secrets up our sleeves. Namely a very high quality research university (UC Santa Barbara - NOT the party school it once was said to be) and an army reserve base and munitions depot. There's a lot of high tech (re: matrix and biotech/nanotech in 2064) industries in town. The airport here is small, but about 1/4th the traffic into our out of it is government or military in nature - though I imagine a lot of that is ROTC. Too much money flows through this place, and it's too well situated as a port to be an acceptable loss. Especially given proximity to...

Vandenburg AFB. North by about 45 minutes, near the small burg of Lompoc. You know all that fuss about the missile shield you were hearing a couple of years ago? Yeah, that was Vandenburg. Man, those missiles really lit up the night sky. It may not sound like much on paper to have the 30th Space Wing and the 14th Air Force/Space Command HQ there, but let me tell you something. Those guys that figure out how to bomb other countries without leaving home? The guys who develop spy sattelites to look in your window at night? The ones who want orbital kill lasers? Yeah, that's them. I did some digging on the 14th once - they sound like pansies, but I'm kinda scared of them. You know they have a squad of 20 or so guys they've trained in zero-g hand to hand combat? I'm talking RL here.
SPOOKY.

Go a bit more north and you hit Pendleton. I think it's maybe an hour, two hours north of Lompoc. Maybe less - my geography gets kinda fuzzy. Once huge and bustling, now 2/3rds shut down, Pendleton still houses a wangtastic amount of military personnel, and is connected north and south by the 101 freeway and a set of rail lines.

So. Yeah.
Yes, I admit, I've done a lot of military analysis of this area of California in terms of Shadowrun.
Nath
Camp Pendleton is south of Los Angeles, on the Interstate 5. The installation you're talking about on the 101 freeway is Fort Hunter I think.

Looking at the map in SoNA, when annexing Los Angeles stopped halway between Santa Monica and Oxnard, south of Simi Valley. BTW, still according to SoNA, Ares controls China Lake, and other corporations have military forces in Barstow and Fort Irwin, while a paramilitary gang controls Twntynine Palms. According to YotC, Fuchi/Novatech has a base in the Mojave Desert, on the way used by the Pueblo to go to LA (in the former Cholocate Mt Gunnery Range ?).
Req
QUOTE
Vandenburg AFB. North by about 45 minutes, near the small burg of Lompoc. You know all that fuss about the missile shield you were hearing a couple of years ago? Yeah, that was Vandenburg. Man, those missiles really lit up the night sky. It may not sound like much on paper to have the 30th Space Wing and the 14th Air Force/Space Command HQ there, but let me tell you something. Those guys that figure out how to bomb other countries without leaving home? The guys who develop spy sattelites to look in your window at night? The ones who want orbital kill lasers? Yeah, that's them. I did some digging on the 14th once - they sound like pansies, but I'm kinda scared of them. You know they have a squad of 20 or so guys they've trained in zero-g hand to hand combat? I'm talking RL here.
SPOOKY.


I grew up in Santa Barbara (up till college, natch) and went to a couple of boyscout camps up at Vandenberg. If I remember right, one of the units there's flash patch is a polar view of the earth with three warheads arcing over the pole toward Russia, with the caption "When You Care Enough To Send The Very Best."

Word.
Adarael
QUOTE
Camp Pendleton is south of Los Angeles, on the Interstate 5. The installation you're talking about on the 101 freeway is Fort Hunter I think.


Whoops. Seeing Pendleton made me just keep writing it. It's not Pendleton, and it's not Hunter, either... It begins with a P, the damn thing.

Bah.

QUOTE
I grew up in Santa Barbara (up till college, natch) and went to a couple of boyscout camps up at Vandenberg. If I remember right, one of the units there's flash patch is a polar view of the earth with three warheads arcing over the pole toward Russia, with the caption "When You Care Enough To Send The Very Best."


Ahh, the lovely Space Command wings... so pleasantly subtle. *cough cough*
Still, though. Yeah - those guys are cool. DAMN cool.
Playing Games
So basically..At current rate it wouldn't be too large of a streach to have roughly 35,000 of these people signing up with Mars.

I think the promise for higher pay,the disenfrancsment, added with a charismatic instigator of high rank,could do this.

By the way his name is Alexander Torrini.

But how big are Unit sizes?Mainly in tanks/planes.


The whole point of Mars is that about half the Navy stayed in california,with some of the other forces.It was,we can't really side with California,and DC is not right either.The only way to make us leave calfiornia to fend for its self is to start a war.DC,cut it's loses again.

Aztlan, stayed away,having two carries is a good way to make enemies think.Even more so when one is fully SOTA.And the other ships don't hurt your stance either.

THIS IS NOT CANON.
Kanada Ten
What kept Mars from taking California for itself and installing a dictatorship?
Obviously the leaders felt both Washington and Sacramento were insane, putting California at such risk...
Playing Games
Lack man power for one.Take Iraq,it is not nearly as large california,has more than 30,000 soldiers in it,and it is not really a stable place.

Besides,When Alexander speaks, Sacramento listens.

So, trading a small amount of power,for large amounts of stability.

The way I see,it if it was a hostile land grab,Mars would have less men.And even if they had just a many it would not be an easy battle to control the Bay Area, or La La land.Yet alone both.

Note that Mars would be supporting its self.

saito, lacking some of the high end weapons,has IIRC twice the man power,and and out side support,in the form of at least one AAA.He can't control all of California,either.

Mars,now has a safe base,witch it gains huge amounts of money from.One in a flat rate for their seres,a part of all the CFS sea tariffs,along with the use of whatever illegal goods they stop at ports.

So,in the end trying to take over California by force would be more trouble than it's worth.
Adarael
QUOTE
So,in the end trying to take over California by force would be more trouble than it's worth.
\

You know, that's one of the truisms that I don't think the Shadowrun developers fully had in mind when they started this whole General Saito business. Now, I recognize that we Californians are looked at as wishy-washy, permissive and generally limp-wristed by the rest of the nation. Probably because we have a tendancy just not to give a rat's ass what the rest of the nation (save maybe New York and Chicago, SOMETIMES) are doing.

But really, Saito has two divisions. That's smaller than an Army (such as the 12th Mechanized Infantry Army, say, to make one up...) or Battalion and larger than a Brigade. What does this mean? It means he has an amorphous amount of troops that probably make up between 4000-8000 men. That's not a lot. Yet with this amorphous amount of troops, Saito has been able to conquer the Bay Area to Sacramento with almost no resistance whatsoever.

There aren't Californians I've asked to date who, given this hypothetical situation, have said they wouldn't fight back themselves. There are absolutely none to date who said they wouldn't fight, given the concentration camps metahumans are being put in, in canon. I don't care what kind of tactical genius Saito is... by my estimation, he is facing at LEAST 175,000 partisans/guerillas that would want to make his life hell. No amount of tactical genius can pit 8000 men against 350,000 in a guerilla warfare situation and win.

Care to know how I arrived at those numbers?
2001 estimate of California's population, via US Census: 35 million. (Well, 34.8, but whatever.) Assuming half that in 2060, due to attrition to Tir Tairngire, the PCC, and going home to CAS/UCAS when the split occurred, we have roughly 17.5 million. Assuming that 1 in 100 people choose to join in defense of a foreign invasion of their nation, whose first strike was at the very *symbol* of what defines California (the Golden Gate Bridge, and by extension, the Bay Area), you're left with 175,000 partisans. Now, I think that's a reasonable number. Even if 1 in 1000 joined, that's still enough resistance to make Saito's campaign very, very difficult. He'd still be outnumbered 2-1 or more.

I hope to god Fanpro is gearing up the CFS for some cool plot stuff, because if they just auction off the nation between Saito and Ares without huge portions of the population becoming involved, I'm gonna be pissed.
Nath
QUOTE (Adarael)
But really, Saito has two divisions. That's smaller than an Army (such as the 12th Mechanized Infantry Army, say, to make one up...) or Battalion and larger than a Brigade. What does this mean? It means he has an amorphous amount of troops that probably make up between 4000-8000 men.

In US typical OB, a brigade is nowadays numbering about 5,000 soldiers and a division counts the equivalent of 4 to 6 brigades. Japanese self-defense force's division only counts 6,000 to 9,000 soldiers, but it might have changed in SR with the new Imperial foreign policy (not to mention there are currently no marine division at all). Anyway there is a precise reference to the number of troops Saito has in YotC, page 110. A talker make the calculation that if Saito outnumbers Ares by ten-to-one, Ares must have 2,500 soldiers in Silicon Valley. Conclusion, his source says Saito has 25,000 soldiers. That may probably not counting Humanis militia and corporate units.
Adarael
See, not having YoTC, I know only what peoples tell me. Thanks for the informative update on them numbers. I think the JSDF was where I was snagging that 8000 per division number.

But I STILL say 1 out of 100 is a reasonable number for people defending their nation, as opposed to the 1 out of 1000.
Nath
QUOTE (Playing Games)
What numbers for for unit sizes,from armored(tanks, artillery),fighters,bombers,soldiers,both normal,and support.

To sum up, here's rough nbumber for the US Army:

Size
- Field Army = 2-5 corps
- Corps = 2-5 divisions
- Division = 10,000-16,000 soldiers
- Brigade = 3,000-5,000 s.
- Battalion = 500-900 s.
- Company = 90-200 s.

Equipment
- Infantry battalion : 60 M2 Bradley (except in Airborne divisions, for obvious reason)
- Armor battalion : 45 M1 Abrams
- Recon battalion : 40 Humvee + 4 Bradley for the HQ
- Artillery battalion :18 M109 Paladin or MLRS
- Air defense battalion : 36 Avenger Humvee + 24 M6 Linebacker (AA missile Bradley)
- Aviation battalion : 50 Blackhawk
- Heavy helicopter battalion : 45 Chinook
- Attack battalion : 24 AH64 Apache

QUOTE (Playing Games)
How many support ships are in a large,and small carrier group.

The standard US Navy deployment is made of a Battle group accompanied by an amphibious group. There are not really large or small groups, though the number of ships can vary from 7 (when the amphibious group isn't there and the battle group's light) to 17. If you depart from the current US Navy policy, the French air carrier can for instance move with as little as one AA frigate and one supply ship with him.

Battle Group
1 carrier
2-3 cruisers
1-5 destroyers
1-2 frigates (AA)
1-2 submarines
1 supply ship
- Carrier Air Wing (airplanes: 20 F-14D, 36 F/A-18 Hornets, 8 S-3A/B Vikings, 4 E-2C Hawkeyes, 4 EA-6B Prowlers ; helicopters: 4 SH-60F, 2 HH-60H)
Amphibious Group
1 Amphibious assault ship
1 Amphibious transport dock
1 Landing ship dock
- Marine Expeditionary Unit (1 battalion, 1 Helicopter Squadron, support)
Playing Games
QUOTE (Adarael)
QUOTE
So,in the end trying to take over California by force would be more trouble than it's worth.
\

You know, that's one of the truisms that I don't think the Shadowrun developers fully had in mind when they started this whole General Saito business. Now, I recognize that we Californians are looked at as wishy-washy, permissive and generally limp-wristed by the rest of the nation. Probably because we have a tendancy just not to give a rat's ass what the rest of the nation (save maybe New York and Chicago, SOMETIMES) are doing.

But really, Saito has two divisions. That's smaller than an Army (such as the 12th Mechanized Infantry Army, say, to make one up...) or Battalion and larger than a Brigade. What does this mean? It means he has an amorphous amount of troops that probably make up between 4000-8000 men. That's not a lot. Yet with this amorphous amount of troops, Saito has been able to conquer the Bay Area to Sacramento with almost no resistance whatsoever.

There aren't Californians I've asked to date who, given this hypothetical situation, have said they wouldn't fight back themselves. There are absolutely none to date who said they wouldn't fight, given the concentration camps metahumans are being put in, in canon. I don't care what kind of tactical genius Saito is... by my estimation, he is facing at LEAST 175,000 partisans/guerillas that would want to make his life hell. No amount of tactical genius can pit 8000 men against 350,000 in a guerilla warfare situation and win.

Care to know how I arrived at those numbers?
2001 estimate of California's population, via US Census: 35 million. (Well, 34.8, but whatever.) Assuming half that in 2060, due to attrition to Tir Tairngire, the PCC, and going home to CAS/UCAS when the split occurred, we have roughly 17.5 million. Assuming that 1 in 100 people choose to join in defense of a foreign invasion of their nation, whose first strike was at the very *symbol* of what defines California (the Golden Gate Bridge, and by extension, the Bay Area), you're left with 175,000 partisans. Now, I think that's a reasonable number. Even if 1 in 1000 joined, that's still enough resistance to make Saito's campaign very, very difficult. He'd still be outnumbered 2-1 or more.

I hope to god Fanpro is gearing up the CFS for some cool plot stuff, because if they just auction off the nation between Saito and Ares without huge portions of the population becoming involved, I'm gonna be pissed.

One Saito in the canon rules has ~25,000-~30,000 soldiers.

But the main reason he could hold such large amounts of land is,that the cops are most likely on his side.As in the cops are on the pay-roll of ONE the MEGA CORPs that is backing Saito.My bet is on either Shiawise,or Yam.So, a lot of the grulia activates would be dealt with by the cops.

But that is Canon,where California is a bunch of bigots never mind that from the civil war onward it has largely been one of the most librial states,with less racism than say,Texas.
Playing Games
QUOTE (Nath)
QUOTE (Playing Games)
What numbers for for unit sizes,from armored(tanks, artillery),fighters,bombers,soldiers,both normal,and support.

To sum up, here's rough nbumber for the US Army:

Size
- Field Army = 2-5 corps
- Corps = 2-5 divisions
- Division = 10,000-16,000 soldiers
- Brigade = 3,000-5,000 s.
- Battalion = 500-900 s.
- Company = 90-200 s.

Equipment
- Infantry battalion : 60 M2 Bradley (except in Airborne divisions, for obvious reason)
- Armor battalion : 45 M1 Abrams
- Recon battalion : 40 Humvee + 4 Bradley for the HQ
- Artillery battalion :18 M109 Paladin or MLRS
- Air defense battalion : 36 Avenger Humvee + 24 M6 Linebacker (AA missile Bradley)
- Aviation battalion : 50 Blackhawk
- Heavy helicopter battalion : 45 Chinook
- Attack battalion : 24 AH64 Apache

QUOTE (Playing Games)
How many support ships are in a large,and small carrier group.

The standard US Navy deployment is made of a Battle group accompanied by an amphibious group. There are not really large or small groups, though the number of ships can vary from 7 (when the amphibious group isn't there and the battle group's light) to 17. If you depart from the current US Navy policy, the French air carrier can for instance move with as little as one AA frigate and one supply ship with him.

Battle Group
1 carrier
2-3 cruisers
1-5 destroyers
1-2 frigates (AA)
1-2 submarines
1 supply ship
- Carrier Air Wing (airplanes: 20 F-14D, 36 F/A-18 Hornets, 8 S-3A/B Vikings, 4 E-2C Hawkeyes, 4 EA-6B Prowlers ; helicopters: 4 SH-60F, 2 HH-60H)
Amphibious Group
1 Amphibious assault ship
1 Amphibious transport dock
1 Landing ship dock
- Marine Expeditionary Unit (1 battalion, 1 Helicopter Squadron, support)


Thank you!

So,how do these numbers sound.

3 air craft carries.
One from 2033
One from 2054
another from 2062

12 criusers
3 from 40's
5 from 50's
the rest from the 60's.

20 destroyrs
all from 50+

4 subs
two 60
one 61
one 62

6 figates
all around 50-55.

3 Amphibious Groups


one "army" brigade ~4,500
one Marine corp ~40,000
3 air force wings.

Now right now these are just rough numbers,but I would like to know if that force would be something a reasonable armed force would look like.
Nath
QUOTE (Playing Games)
3 air craft carriers (One from 2033, One from 2054, another from 2062)
12 cruisers (3 from 40's, 5 from 50's, the rest from the 60's)
20 destroyers (all from 50+)
4 subs (two 60, one 61, one 62)
6 frigates (all around 50-55)
3 Amphibious Groups

With such numbers, your Navy is a nearly a quarter of the US Navy, or in the same league than what UK and France have nowadays, and they might be far behind the US Navy, they're second and third in the world. Except that all your ships are a lot more younger than theirs ! One carrier, four cruisers and four submarines commissioned between 2060 and 2063, it's maybe 5 or 6 billions nuyen of purchase. That's huge, if not insane. To take on coast guard duties, you'll need a load more of frigates, corvettes and patrol boats than cruisers. Amphibious groups are useless if you don't plan on invading somebody.

QUOTE (Playing Games)
one "army" brigade ~4,500
one Marine corp ~40,000

Again, your Marine corps makes about a quarter of the current US force. That would be nearly all the USMC units currently stationned in California, if not more. However if you don't go too heavy on battle tanks, infantry is cheaper to maintain than air carriers.

Besides, keeping the Marines separated from the Army might be a military tradition in some armed forces (US and UK mainly), but it doesn't make a lot of sense on such scale. You'd merge the two forces.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (NMAth)
Besides, keeping the Marines separated from the Army might be a military tradition in some armed forces (US and UK mainly), but it doesn't make a lot of sense on such scale. You'd merge the two forces.

They might be the same service, but they would still be trained to operate in different environments. Calling them Army and Marines wouldn't make sense, nor would having separate command chains above, what, Brigadier General level? Some integration would be nearly complete. But for simplicity, in discussion about them, referring to one as Army and the other as Marines still works.

Although I think they would've balanced out it so that 90% of their fighting force isn't trained for amphibious operations -- if they are only supposed to defend CA, they won't need anything near that many marines. Which ties in with the insanity of amphibious groups for coast guarding...
Playing Games
I forgot to say that was Mars in 2064,and they have contracts with more than just California.They work with TPA,AC,CL,Used to have one with Fuchi,now one with Novatech.

About the how new parts of the leets are,true a large part is new,and I see your point.I may have added to much that is too new,I just figured that they did a large upgrade.Even so I will change some numbers.

And wile they have large amounts of marines...Notice their lack of army.CAS has about 3-4 times as many soldiers.I am not sure about their navel size,but then again Mars covers about the same size area as CAS.It just has a whole lot more cost.


As for cost guard boats,I am not so sure.

Thank you for pointing out my flaws,I will put more though into the dates ,amounts and sizes of ships.

The reason for keeping the force sperate is the duties of the units,egos,and a promise.But I will think of changing that as well.
Playing Games
Thank you!

So,how do these numbers sound.

3 air craft carries.
One from 2033
One from 2054
another from 2062

12 criusers
2 from the late 30's
3 from 40's
5 from 50's
the rest from the 60's.

20 destroyrs
all from 50+

4 subs
two 55
one 58
one 62

6 figates
all around 50-55.

3 Amphibious Groups


one "army" brigade ~8,500
The army is always in a california.Along with two of the airforce wings.
one Marine corp ~40,000
The marines are spread out over other contracks.
3 air force wings.

Civilan numbers are setchy as well,but I would say that cost gaurd would be about the same size as the the Amry,and wouldn't need any ship large enough for me to list.They would mainly be small,ships that would be rather easy to replace.IE theyvwould be easier to destroy by a shadowruning team,but wouldn't do much besides causing a few extra shifts for other patrols.

A logical out reach would also to have contract as civil peace officers.Witch I am still geting data on.If I am not mistaken it should be a raito of ~1:1000 people.Again no singel piece of equitment that if lost would cause large,or noticeable losses.

Notable relations in NA, friendly with CFS,Nearly all the NAN by the Sea,mainly AC,and TPA,Somewhat friendly with CAS, Quebec,PPC,Sioux.Dislikes mildly UCAS,Tir,Ute Tsimshian.Hates Aztlan.

Any input on how people would think other nations would act owards these people,would be welllecomed.I have a felling Japan,would keep an eye one these guys,but not start a fight for no reason.

Lastly Mars has a slightly higher than normal pasteage of magically active and metahumans.Based on the areas around them,they would have something like 110% norm of magically active people,and meta humans.Take CFS 62% humans 38% metas..Mars would have ~45.6% meta and if 1% magicly active in CFS mars would have ~1.1%.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Playing Games @ Jan 29 2004, 06:26 PM)
One Saito in the canon rules has ~25,000-~30,000 soldiers.

But the main reason he could hold such large amounts of land is,that the cops are most likely on his side.As in the cops are on the pay-roll of ONE the MEGA CORPs that is backing Saito.My bet is on either Shiawise,or Yam.So, a lot of the grulia activates would be dealt with by the cops.

Shaiwise perhaps depending on what they consider to be more "family values" either the old way or following the new emperor.

I can't see it being Yamatetsu, their to meta friendly, and Saito is sooo not. Yakashima (sp?) Perhaps, but would being only an AA mega preclude them??

Personally, i'd but if i had to put money on it being a japan Mega, it would be Mitsuhama. Renraku could of but there still realing form the Arcology fiasco. But saying that it could be the power grab to bring them back....
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