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Moxie
I've read a few topics of how mystic adepts are tough to build but I get confused since I'm so new to SR in general.

Like do most mystic adept use 1 adept power level, and 3 or 4 magic, or reverse it and use 3 adept/1magic along with a power focus in either case? That way the magic side can get bumped up if need be. Basically, what's the optimal mix? Do you add bioware as well?

I've read some mystic adepts summon a spirit of man to help cast spells that they normally wouldn't be capable of.. With the above question answered, how would you build a mystic adept and what's the advantages? I mean, I can crunch out the numbers, but 'why' is it better to do it that way?

How does the social mystic adept work out? Is it mainly due to the extra dice from kinesics that makes them so viable in addition to the max magic rank they can obtain? Do these social adepts typically take commanding voice for another attack option? Or do they rely on spellage to fill that side out?

Thank you in advance for those answering.
X-Kalibur
From what I've played around with, the good mixes are splitting heavy adept w/ 1 spellcasting magic (for use of counterspelling, which is not technically limited by MAG rating) or doing a 50/50 mix so you can have a level or two of Improved Reflexes with the remainder in spellcasting using a power focus for amplification.
Kerenshara
Third option is get an extra IP with BioWare (Synaptic Accelerators) and then go heavy with Spellcasting (Say, 4 points) and one point in Adept abilities, like improved senses.

Frankly, it depends almost entirely on what your focus is going to be. A Mage with just the (cheap) senses and things through the Adept side, Spellcasting 4 is enough to toss substantial spells, though you aren't going to get to the top of the new Threshold chart yet (Force 5), but that can come with your first point of Initiation. A F2 Sustaining Focus will get you a sustained Improved Reflexes 1 (+1 IP & +1 to REA for Surprise) and all you need it 2 Hits on the casting test. Don't become obsessed with the stat boosts and initiative boosts, because when you compare their "Magic Point" cose vs. LOST magic from ESSense loss, it's a win with BioWare. OR low level sustained spells - LowLight spell at F1 for example. Think outside the box. With enough spells, a Mage can duplicate just about everything an Adept can do. Many Adept powers are permanent versions of Mage spells in fact.

If you really need always-on abilities, go heavier to Adept. If not, Mage. In the end, remember that although you'd be overcasting, all you need is 2 points on the spell side to be able to overcast to F4, which will beat electronics, but even overcast is low absolute number of Drain you have to reduce. Just keep them passive, rather than active or offensive where you can. You'll be shocked.
Falconer
No a mystic adept doesn't have to split points to both halves by RAW. He could allocate his points as a pure adept or pure mage w/ the option to take others later. (he hasn't vully vested his powers as a mystic adept).


Don't worry so much about being the most powerfull, just have fun w/ the concept.


Generally the problem w/ mystic adepts can go down like this. If you want them to cast spells... they can cast them like magicians but you need to spend a full point of magic just to astrally percieve. And if you can't astrally percieve you can't clean up your spell signatures.

Technically any mystic adept can counterspell, whether or not he has points allocated to spellcasting 'magic'. He just needs ranks in the skill. (not recommended for any GM to allow this though... but there's no disallowing it in RAW).


The biggest problem new players run into w/ mystic adepts is that they're the biggest karma sinks in the game. You have a lot of things to spend karma on. More magic (to be a better mage/summoner/adept). More skills (to be a better adept), More stats (never have enough).


And when dealing with chargen... they're trickier. A pure mage char out of chargen has very few points to spend on anything except being a mage. So a half-mage now needs to buy those skills, as well as spells (which he'll cast less effectively), as well as adept powers. A pure adept will buy his magic yes; however, his skill buys afterwards won't be really much different from what a street sam buys, he doesn't have to worry about all the magical specific skills.


Generally, as a mystic adept try and stick to a core concept. An aspected restriction mindset can help you a lot (and I don't recomend the negative quality). EG: a sniper type char, who summons spirits to help him hide, sneak in, and scout (concealment, movement, etc). Or a med-adept... great first-aid skills, passable combat skills. plus specialized in casting health spells so you can not only first-aid but you also can 'heal' and other usefull health spell buffs. The general key is to have a usefull focus of the build and not get yourself too spread out and fall into the trap I can do everything poorly, instead of these few things excellently (or adequately even).

Kerenshara
QUOTE (Falconer @ Sep 12 2009, 12:19 AM) *
Technically any mystic adept can counterspell, whether or not he has points allocated to spellcasting 'magic'. He just needs ranks in the skill. (not recommended for any GM to allow this though... but there's no disallowing it in RAW).

You and I have been back and forth about this one, Falconer. We basically agreed to disagree in the past, so please don't put your interpretation up as RAW, because we still haven't heard a Dev weigh in on this, and I doubt they want to touch it. I don't want to re-start the old argument, but I want Moxie to understand that there is disagreement about this point.

Moxie, the argument here in the past has been that while Magic Active skills are listed as being available to Magicians and Mystic Adepts, the rules do assume you are going to "split" your allocation of Magic Points such that you have SOMETHING dedicated to the use of Magical Active skills. The listing for those skills says you have to have a MAGic Attribute of 1 or higher to use them. All of them, except Counterspelling, use the MAGic stat in every use of the skill. Counterspelling has a single case where you don't need the MAGic stat, so Falconer contends that you can learn Counterspelling expressly to use in THAT situation - Spell Defense / Counterspelling. It is my opinion (and anything ANYBODY on DumpShock says about this is strictly opinion because nobody with an official standing at Catalyst has weighed in yet) that their interpretation is incorrect and represents an attempt to twist the wording - or lack thereof - to fit their desires. Mind you, taking even a single point as dedicated to Magical Active skills negates the whole argument.

Here are the passages in question:

SR4A, P.92: Mystic Adept


Mystic adepts are a hybrid between magicians and adepts. Mystic adepts choose whether to dedicate their individual Magic attribute points toward somatic adept powers (gaining 1 Power point per Magic attribute point allocated) or towards Magic skills such as spellcasting and conjuring instead.

A character must purchase this quality in order to be a mystic adept and starts with a Magic attribute of 1. This may be increased like any other attribute, up to a maximum of 6 + initiation grade (see Purchase Attributes, p. 82). A character with this quality cannot take the Adept, Magician, or Technomancer qualities.

Like adepts, mystic adepts do not have access to astral space unless they purchase the Astral Perception adept power.
Mystic adepts may not astrally project.

Though this quality is inexpensive, gamemasters should be careful not to allow it to be abused. It should only be taken for characters that intend to explore their nature as mystic adepts.

SR4A, P.122: Magical Active Skills


Unless otherwise noted in the description, only characters with the Magician or Mystic Adept quality and a Magic attribute of 1 or greater may take or use Magic skills. The use of Magical skills is described in The Awakened World, p. 176.

Emphasis mine.

The last piece of the Mystic Adept section is why I disagree with Falconer about whether or not a Mystic Adept has to split their pool of Magic Points at character creation of not, but ultimately that's up to your GM.

Where it gets really contentious between us is the second part, where they contend that a Mystic Adept can not only choose NOT to place any of their Magic Points toward the use of Magical Active skills (asserting that the text "wheteher to dedicate" is key but I take the next two words to be relevant "whether to dedicate individual points" simply implying you don't have to split them evenly) but if they choose NOT to put any Magic Points toward Magic Skills, that they still have access to Counterspelling exclussively for defensive use because that use doesn't require the MAGic statistic in the roll. I believe that the word "and" that I highlighted in the heading for Magical Active Skills that I quoted above is important in order to TAKE the skill in the first place. Since a Mystic Adept with no Magic Points dedicated to Magical Active skills has an effective MAGic 0 for the use of the skills, I contend that they fail to meet the second part of the qualifier under Magical Active Skills and can't take Counterspelling at all. Elsewhere we find the following passage:

SR4A, P.177: Magic


If a character’s Magic is ever reduced to 0, she can no longer perform any kind of magic. The magician has “burned out,? losing all magical ability and becoming a mundane forever. She retains all magical skills and knowledge, but lacks the ability to use them. Active skills become Knowledge skills.

Again, emphasis mine.

That is why I disagree with Falconer when they say that if you have no Magic Points dedicated to Magic Skill use you can still use Counterspelling in a defensive role. The text above would seem to disagree quite strongly. But until a Dev comes along and says otherwise, it's strictly opinion and GM choice.

The interpretation by Falconer that I quoted at the very beginning of this post is by no means a direct reading of the Rules As Written.


McAllister
Social mystic adepts... I know a social adept can use a wicked combination of Improved Ability (lots of them), Kinesics and Commanding Voice (which, you're right, can become a serious attack power), but I'm not sure how adding spellcasting would help. Control Thoughts/Emotions/Actions all either adds no social bonus or totally overrides social checks, and Influence, again, just depends on a Spellcasting check.

Maybe you summon spirits to Confuse your enemies, giving them penalties on their social roles? Or use Illusion spells to impersonate a VIP, so that people do what you say? I dunno, I tend to go bioadept when making faces. Tailored Pheremones + Improved Ability (Leadership) + Kinesics is just fun, especially when Commanding Voice can tell people to do stupid things. Like stand up when they're in cover.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (McAllister @ Sep 12 2009, 10:35 AM) *
Social mystic adepts... I know a social adept can use a wicked combination of Improved Ability (lots of them), Kinesics and Commanding Voice (which, you're right, can become a serious attack power), but I'm not sure how adding spellcasting would help. Control Thoughts/Emotions/Actions all either adds no social bonus or totally overrides social checks, and Influence, again, just depends on a Spellcasting check.

Maybe you summon spirits to Confuse your enemies, giving them penalties on their social roles? Or use Illusion spells to impersonate a VIP, so that people do what you say? I dunno, I tend to go bioadept when making faces. Tailored Pheremones + Improved Ability (Leadership) + Kinesics is just fun, especially when Commanding Voice can tell people to do stupid things. Like stand up when they're in cover.

That's because you're thinking offensively. Think "knowledge". Detect Enemies, Extended can let you know if the meet's a setup. Analyze Truth is self explanitory, because Johnson usually KNOWS if they're screwing you intentionally. Mind Net lets the team converse with no detectable emissions. Spatial Sense, Extended is useful for knowing about hidden doors/passages and exits. (Area) Thought Recognition is neat when you're doing legwork and follow-up, especially after a double-cross. Awaken is a great way to bring somebody completely awake on a stake-out. Don't think big spells to AFFECT the other person, think ways to enhance/defend yourself.


Falconer
Karenshara:
I do give you credit for doing a very even handed summary of the disagreement.

No, my reading is strictly RAW (though maybe not RAI). Power points aren't seperate from Magic rating which is the requirement AS WRITTEN. You'll notice often times on the forums I point out the rules allow/disallow things even if I disagree with them. Simply because that's how they get fixed or clarified in the future.

Your last portion is also irrelevant. Is an adept automatically 'burnt out' out of char gen? No, they spend their MAGIC RATING in the form of power points. They still have a Magic rating == to their power points for a pure adept.

What you're arguing is RAI vs RAW. (and I half-agree with you). But only half. If I want to do it, there's nothing in the rules that say I can't, I have the proper prerequisites for the skill and paid extra. It's up to the GM to accept or reject it based on whether he thinks it's an abuse.



Is it an abuse... I'm not so sure.
Anyhow, here's my only beef. Adept spent 5BP for adept. Mystic Adept spent 10BP to be an adept. (5BP more). Counterspelling skill costs 4BP per rank OR .5 magic power point per rank!!!

Which costs less?! The pure adept route! (4 ranks in counterspelling + 5BP more for mystic. vs rating 4 spell resistance)

The difference, that for the mystic it's not coming out of the more limited power points but out of skill points. The player is paying for that advantage though and mystic adepts are already short on BP (and karma) relative to almost every other class. So it's nowhere near as clearcut as you state. (that and counterspelling can protect allies, while adept power only protects self and fully stacks w/ counterspelling!!).

Every time, I've listed it. I've listed it as a potential abuse, but one I'm not sure is or isn't really as the costs are roughly in balance (and mystic adepts are already pretty nerfed in terms of advancement).

Let's put another example out... you love bioware. Mystic adept has a power point in spellcasting... has counterspelling, he sacrifices that point when he gets some bioware lowering his magic. Or mystic adept enters 2 point background count and needs to lose some magic... so it's not a problem which only comes up straight out of chargen.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Falconer @ Sep 12 2009, 11:29 AM) *
Let's put another example out... you love bioware. Mystic adept has a power point in spellcasting... has counterspelling, he sacrifices that point when he gets some bioware lowering his magic. Or mystic adept enters 2 point background count and needs to lose some magic... so it's not a problem which only comes up straight out of chargen.

Like I said, it's how you choose to read it. It's kind of like that pesky comma in the 2nd Ammendment to the US Constitution. Depends on how you read the sentence as to how you come down on the issue.

Ok, now your last question is an interesting one. You could go that way, but the MA could just choose to give up a point of normal Adept abilities if they were really worried. But that aside, their total talent isn't burned out, just the part that applies to Magical Active Skills. So, if at a later time they put another point back into that side of their Tallent, then those skills would become available again. But a particularly harsh GM could choose to read that directly as-is and say that they lose it forever; But then, since the player retains the choice of which "point's worth" of powers they lose, they could choose to lose normal Adept powers instead and dodge the whole problem.

Fundamentally, Mystic Adepts are neither Fish nor Fowl. They generally get the best of both worlds to make up for what they CAN'T do, but the one time they are categorically get the "short end" is with the "spellcasting" side, or as they put it "Points dedicated to Magical Active Skills". When using Adept powers, their full Magic rating counts. But when doing ANYTHING in reference to those Magical Active Skills, whether it's Enchanting, Summoning, Banishing, Binding, Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting or Counterspelling, they always have to use JUST the number of points dedicated to using those skills. With no points dedicated, they don't have ACCESS to those skills. I was just coming at things from the opposite side of the "burn out" rule, which was addressing Mages primarily, but also addressing Mystic Adepts as it pertains to the points dedicated. The logic I have (as I read it) is that if you lose access to the ACTIVE version of the Magical Active Skills and they become Magical Knowledge Skills when your related MAGic score reaches 0, then until the related MAGic skill RISES above 0, you can't have access to the ACTIVE skills, either, which would mean you can't use Counterspelling.
Falconer
Actually, I'm about to get out of here, but check the published FAQ. (why they did it there and NOT in the errata I don't know... I consider the point of a FAQ to clarify... not completely do the opposite of what is written... that is for errata!).

The only advantage a mystic adept retains is that it allows a mystic adept to add a power focus to his adept powers which roll magic. They don't retain full value of anything :(.

Rolling attribute boost... don't roll full magic but only your power points, etc.

IMO: the ONLY advantages a mystic adept has is the ability to pick anything (and use it less effecitvely). the ability to use any focus, full access to all metamagics, and access to all the magical skills (which he'll suck using more than an actual magician), ohh and the priviledge to spend 1PP to be able to astrally perceive (which magicians get for free, in addition they can also project!).

Here's the cite in question, which basically bones your mystic adept even more.

SR4 FAQ!!
"Though mystic adepts must split their Magic between Magic-based skills and adept powers, it says that for all other purposes, including the limits of adept powers, the mystic adept uses his full Magic attribute. Does this mean that a mystic adept with Magic 6 who has allocated 2 points to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers can cast Force 6 spells without flinching?

The Magic points allocated towards Magic-based skills counts for all aspects of those skills. This includes: Magic-linked skill tests (Summoning, Spellcasting, Enchanting, etc.), overcasting, and maximum spell Force, for example.

For power points and Magic when used by adept powers, only the points allocated towards adept powers apply. This includes Attribute Boost Tests and the like.

For all other purposes -- i.e., non-Magic-linked skills -- the mystic adept's full Magic attribute is used: pressing through astral barriers, initiation grade limit, Masking metamagic, and so on.

So in the example above, the maximum Force he can cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain. "
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Falconer @ Sep 12 2009, 12:04 PM) *
*Snip*

SR4 FAQ!!

*Snip*

The only problem is (because I am familiar with the FAQ in question) they didn't bother to change anything in SR4A - I checked specifically when they I got the new book. In theory, everything erata-wise and clarification-wise was supposed to be incorporated back into the new book. It's word-for-word identical to the older version. So do we go with the old FAQ, or take it as Gospel that they meant what they said this time around? It doesn't make much difference to the kind of MA I play, but it's a valid question at this point.
McAllister
SO MOXIE, BACK TO YOUR QUESTION: here's something to keep in mind. They changed the Innate Spell power such that spirits cannot overcast spells. Ergo, let's say your mystad has mana-Magic 2 and Summoning 4, with a specialization and mentor spirit for Spirits of Man. 10 dice is probably 3 hits, meaning, with some luck, you can summon a force 4 spirit with a service or two. He'll be able to cast spells at twice the force you can (unless you're overcasting), and 8 dice will probably keep you safe from drain (although it would be physical). Not perfect, but probably easier than investing spellcasting and the like.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (McAllister @ Sep 12 2009, 02:38 PM) *
SO MOXIE, BACK TO YOUR QUESTION: here's something to keep in mind. They changed the Innate Spell power such that spirits cannot overcast spells. Ergo, let's say your mystad has mana-Magic 2 and Summoning 4, with a specialization and mentor spirit for Spirits of Man. 10 dice is probably 3 hits, meaning, with some luck, you can summon a force 4 spirit with a service or two. He'll be able to cast spells at twice the force you can (unless you're overcasting), and 8 dice will probably keep you safe from drain (although it would be physical). Not perfect, but probably easier than investing spellcasting and the like.

Emphasis Mine

Except that summoning that F4 Spirit of Man is going to be "Overcasting" Drain on the summoning, too...
Moxie
Aww, seems like mystic adept has some issues, I thought they'd get magic + attribute boost at least from what I read like Kerenshara and previously Falconer was saying.

Thank you for the replies all, it seems like more magic than adept seems better, at least under this ruling. That way your spells/summons, etc actually mean something. Unless you can get by with just summons and a spirit of man.

So does anyone have ideas for making it viable then? Maybe Masking + commanding voice (that way less need for astral sight and save some power pts) + kinesics or combat sense or enhanced perception and the 3 or 4 into mage casting would be good, but even then, I can't think of anything offhand. Or maybe an edged attribute boost could still be viable, 1 magic + 1 adept + 6 edge = 8d6 with exploding, which could make it somewhat useful in combat to raise body for example, still at that point, why not just use it on other stuff.

Edit to add: On the summoning, what does 'overcasting' drain mean? The fact you need to resist the F4 physical drain at the end, or something else? Still a newbie here.
malichai
Let's assume your role on the team is close combat. You've built a really effective melee build, with 1 point of magic just so you can do counterspelling. You can't afford any power focuses or anything right now. All that being said, what are some effective force-1 spells?
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Moxie @ Sep 12 2009, 03:15 PM) *
Edit to add: On the summoning, what does 'overcasting' drain mean? The fact you need to resist the F4 physical drain at the end, or something else? Still a newbie here.

Physical damage from unresisted drain instead of Stun.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Sep 12 2009, 06:55 AM) *
All of them, except Counterspelling, use the MAGic stat in every use of the skill. Counterspelling has a single case where you don't need the MAGic stat, so Falconer contends that you can learn Counterspelling expressly to use in THAT situation - Spell Defense / Counterspelling.

Rules as Written, a Magic attribute is required to learn and use such skills - not a Magic attribute dedicated to Spellcasting (in the case of Mystic Adepts).

Even in the event of a 0 dedicated to Spellcasting, such a character can learn and use to their full extent any Spellcasting & Conjuring skills. The reason why they do not (with the exception of Banishing & Counterspelling) is because a 0 Attribute does not allow them to meet the minimum Force requirement of 1 (0 x 2 = 0).

It remains that the full use of Counterspelling, including that using the Magic attribute, is still available, although such a character would receive 0 dice from the Magic portion.

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Sep 12 2009, 06:55 AM) *
It is my opinion (and anything ANYBODY on DumpShock says about this is strictly opinion because nobody with an official standing at Catalyst has weighed in yet) that their interpretation is incorrect and represents an attempt to twist the wording - or lack thereof - to fit their desires.

Bullshit. The rule book is 'an official standing at Catalyst'.

What is being presented as an argument against 'your opinion' are the Rules as Written. There is no twisting, misrepresentation, or anything of a similar nature going on. You are attempting to add additional meaning to such text in an attempt to forward your point.

QUOTE (Falconer @ Sep 12 2009, 11:04 AM) *
Actually, I'm about to get out of here, but check the published FAQ. (why they did it there and NOT in the errata I don't know... I consider the point of a FAQ to clarify... not completely do the opposite of what is written... that is for errata!).

The "Official" FAQ, as you should know, is complete bullshit. It is years out of date, has multiple sections that contradict the Rules as Written, and often serves to add further confusion rather than to clarify.

Why it has not simply been obliterated, I do not know.

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Sep 12 2009, 12:04 PM) *
The only problem is (because I am familiar with the FAQ in question) they didn't bother to change anything in SR4A - I checked specifically when they I got the new book. In theory, everything erata-wise and clarification-wise was supposed to be incorporated back into the new book. It's word-for-word identical to the older version. So do we go with the old FAQ, or take it as Gospel that they meant what they said this time around? It doesn't make much difference to the kind of MA I play, but it's a valid question at this point.

See above.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 14 2009, 12:25 AM) *
Rules as Written, a Magic attribute is required to learn and use such skills - not a Magic attribute dedicated to Spellcasting (in the case of Mystic Adepts).

Even in the event of a 0 dedicated to Spellcasting, such a character can learn and use to their full extent any Spellcasting & Conjuring skills. The reason why they do not (with the exception of Banishing & Counterspelling) is because a 0 Attribute does not allow them to meet the minimum Force requirement of 1 (0 x 2 = 0).

It remains that the full use of Counterspelling, including that using the Magic attribute, is still available, although such a character would receive 0 dice from the Magic portion.

*snip*

Wow.

Well, I'm not going to go into much detail because that's about the least "polite" post I can ever remember from you anywhere, Muspellsheimr. It's almost argumenative, and that's really atypical of you in my mind.

You're reading things one way, more-or-less the same as Falconer. Taken in combination, I happen to feel the passage about "dedicated to Magical Active Skills" is key, and that's what he and I fundamentally disagree about. And while I'd love an update on the FAQ, I'm not completely dismissing that it exists.

You're really not contributing to the debate materially unfortunately, one way or the other here. You're just venting and/or re-iterating what's already been said. Falconer and I have been at this one for a while, but he's always been trying to factually argue and support his view, and is willing to acknowledge where I'm coming from even if thinking I'm completely in error. Essentially, we agree to disagree here until/unless a Dev has something to say... which I wish they would, one way or another. Frankly, as both he and I have agreed in the past, the speciffic condition we are debating is/should be vanishingly rare in the extreme. As to the FAQ, if we actually go by things as written - including your take on counterspelling- who WOULDN'T want to play a Mystic Adept over an Adept? We'd never see PC Adepts again because for 5 BP you'd have additional access, even if you don't use it right away (100% powers, nothing to Magical Active Skills). THAT would certainly make MAs as broken and overpowered as many people think they are.
Tyro
QUOTE (malichai @ Sep 12 2009, 02:50 PM) *
Let's assume your role on the team is close combat. You've built a really effective melee build, with 1 point of magic just so you can do counterspelling. You can't afford any power focuses or anything right now. All that being said, what are some effective force-1 spells?

I just started a new thread on this topic. When I created it I wasn't aware of this thread, but considering the derailment of this thread re: the counterspelling debate I stand by having started it.
Karoline
QUOTE
Though this quality is inexpensive, gamemasters should be careful not to allow it to be abused. It should only be taken for characters that intend to explore their nature as mystic adepts.


Seems to me if you take mystic adept and then don't put any of your magic points into the mystic part, it would fall under people who do not intend to explore their nature as a mystic adept, and instead are exploring their nature as an adept with access to counterspelling.

As for the OP.. You can do it more or less however you want. You can be a mage with a few adept bonuses, or you can be an adept with a few mage bonuses, or you can split it down the middle and live both worlds, though I suspect that leaning towards one direction or the other is more useful.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Sep 12 2009, 12:46 PM) *
But when doing ANYTHING in reference to those Magical Active Skills, whether it's Enchanting, Summoning, Banishing, Binding, Spellcasting, Ritual Spellcasting or Counterspelling, they always have to use JUST the number of points dedicated to using those skills. With no points dedicated, they don't have ACCESS to those skills. I was just coming at things from the opposite side of the "burn out" rule, which was addressing Mages primarily, but also addressing Mystic Adepts as it pertains to the points dedicated. The logic I have (as I read it) is that if you lose access to the ACTIVE version of the Magical Active Skills and they become Magical Knowledge Skills when your related MAGic score reaches 0, then until the related MAGic skill RISES above 0, you can't have access to the ACTIVE skills, either, which would mean you can't use Counterspelling.


I'd like to point out Street Magic, Page 24, under Enchanting (Magic), where it says that a pure Adept can do Enchanting, as well as Mystic Adepts and Magicians. If this is so, then there should be no restriction based on the magician/adept split for Mystic Adepts. They should get their whole Magic rating.

Counterspelling is part of the Sorcery Skill Group, and it makes sense to apply the restriction to that Skill.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Sep 28 2009, 08:49 PM) *
I'd like to point out Street Magic, Page 24, under Enchanting (Magic), where it says that a pure Adept can do Enchanting, as well as Mystic Adepts and Magicians. If this is so, then there should be no restriction based on the magician/adept split for Mystic Adepts. They should get their whole Magic rating.

Counterspelling is part of the Sorcery Skill Group, and it makes sense to apply the restriction to that Skill.

Per SR4A, the Enchanting skill is expressly excepted in the skill text from the limitation I mentioned.
Trench
The issue im dealing with: 1 skill point, or a spell and 5k yen?
pbangarth
QUOTE (Trench @ Nov 4 2009, 06:55 AM) *
The issue im dealing with: 1 skill point, or a spell and 5k yen?


The answer depends on the personal taste and goals of the character. It's a balancing act. For magician characters, I tend to want to get as many spells at chargen as will fit the Spellcasting Skill the character has. Yet I don't always max out the Spellcasting Skill at 6.
Saint Sithney
Octopii throws down some excellent PoC MAs in this thread here.

My main difficulty with MA concepts is that they generally have to be munchkinized to operate. You've got absolutely no left over Bp to make the character an actual character - No contacts and no skills except what is completely necessary. They build so much nicer when you're using Karma than with Bp.
Kerenshara
That's one reason I love KarmaGen so much. The same thing that allows creation of broadly capable generalist 'runners also allows a competent MA out of the gate without getting too Munchy.
Marcus
I have to agree with Kerenshara, the concept of using a magically active skill while not having the magical ability (IE a point of magic devoted to casting spells) to manipulate mana and there for counter spells is clearly a common sense call. But we all also may have noted that SR20ED also happens to have a cut and pasted index. (Yeah ok I'd like new material too)

On the topic of mixing and matching aka the OP smile.gif, the top end NPC's we have seen all favor combinations, Generally Magic and Bioware type stuff. New qualities like Type O Body, and the various nanite, and genetic therapies also seem to push towards broader use of the Trinity (Skill, Tech and Magic). In the end you have to figure out what you think fits your character best. I happen to like playing characters with nice dual path advancement, but there nothing wrong with climbing one tree and saving the rest for other characters.

-M cyber.gif

Sorry I had Jump back in here cause I forgot what i was gonna say on Social Adepts, I think we have seen a nice push towards Adepts doing lots of other things besides just smashing go-gangers. The games that I played back in the day and the games I played both in the Campaign and in Home style are steadily changing. Maybe I'm just getting old nyahnyah.gif. But I think Social Adepts are excellent, the Hacking Adept Concept is another i really like smile.gif, its certainly true that they will be less combat focused. But if you still wanna throw down there's lots of old standbyes to fall back on. (See Mono-Whips, Explosives, and various forms of Skeletal Hardening).
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