Grounding targets must be astrally active at the time of casting. This includes astral perception and projection. Foci are valid targets only when activated. Dual natured beings are always active.
The Initiate can only cast spells of a Force equal to or less than their Initiate rank. Casting a spell with a greater Force than the grounding target's Force/Essence incurs a +1 (+2?) TN penalty to Sorcery and Drain test (it ain't easy shoving 10 pounds of crap in a 2 pound bag). Incoming spell must be physical - no mana spells. If incoming spell is area effect, it must be centered on the grounding target.
Kind of a bastardization of the old 2nd Ed rules. Any suggestion? Anyone else have something similar?
[Edit]
Line-of-Sight is severely limited when grounding spells. For targeting purposes, the casting initiate's LOS is restricted to the grounding target only. Therefore, area effect Combat spells will only affect the grounding target. This applies even if there are other valid grounding targets within the radius of the area effect. (Thanks, Herald)
Full Version: Grounding as a metamagic
Limit it's area combat usefulness to elemental manipulatios. You only have LoS to the centerpoint, so powerball wouldn't be able to affect any nearby targets, but fireball would.
+1 per point you surpass the conduit by should be enough.
+1 per point you surpass the conduit by should be enough.
Personally, i like it, and new metamagics are always interesting.
It looked really nice in 2nd ed, but i never got to use it or see it used.
I presume you don't mind if i borrow this? Maybe point my players at it?
(Probably have to make it a fairly hard to get metamagic though. Only known to a few old powerful mages, or similar esoteric sources)
It looked really nice in 2nd ed, but i never got to use it or see it used.
I presume you don't mind if i borrow this? Maybe point my players at it?
(Probably have to make it a fairly hard to get metamagic though. Only known to a few old powerful mages, or similar esoteric sources)
| QUOTE |
| Incoming spell must be physical - no mana spells. |
According to canon, there would no way to incorporate this Metamagic while actually projecting, as Physical spells cannot be cast while Astrally Projecting.
True. But then again, you couldn't hide a spell's aura until the Masking Metamagic came along either...
Frankly, I just threw that in for game balance. I didn't like the idea of a magician grounding Control Manipulations (too much like Possession) or Heal/Treat spells.
Frankly, I just threw that in for game balance. I didn't like the idea of a magician grounding Control Manipulations (too much like Possession) or Heal/Treat spells.
I don't like grounding Lightning Ball, too much like screwing the Sam, the rigger, the decker and anyone else around the mage. I like that they took the grounding effect out, mages would always hide in astral and just nuke the team, or the mage was so paranoid that he wouldn't use any foci, and became another NPC we went to, to get healed in a hurry. I currently am playing the team mage and sure sometimes I wish I could ground out a spell on the mage who is throughly whipping our butts, but that means he could do the same to us, no thanks.
| QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Jan 29 2004, 08:22 AM) |
| I don't like grounding Lightning Ball, too much like screwing the Sam, the rigger, the decker and anyone else around the mage. I like that they took the grounding effect out, mages would always hide in astral and just nuke the team, or the mage was so paranoid that he wouldn't use any foci... |
That's why my version of Grounding includes a limit on the Force of the spell to the Initiate's grade, as well as a penalty for trying to ground thru relatively weak foci. Making Grounding a Metamagic restricts this trick to Initiates only. That should keep it from appearing too frequently in most people's games. Initiates capable of grounding a Force 6 Lightning Ball should be few and far between.
That is true, but I have been screwed too many times with grounding. If it works in our game. ok. nothing wrong with it. I would just rather not have it, or at least let the mage deal with the mana spells cast at him through a foci.
I think that grounding should be possible, it makes the mechanics of the astral plane somewhat more 'real'. It does affect the usefulness of foci drastically, however, if it is a common metamagic. This begs the question of how common the grounding metamagic would be. How powerful is it compared to the other common metamagics? Also: What are the most common metamagics?
One thing's for sure: The players would be mightily peeved if you just threw a mage at them with this power without telling them that grounding is back on the cards.
One thing's for sure: The players would be mightily peeved if you just threw a mage at them with this power without telling them that grounding is back on the cards.
| QUOTE (Frag-o Delux) |
| ...or at least let the mage deal with the mana spells cast at him through a foci. |
My rules wouldn't allow mana spells to be cast through foci at all.
Er, mana spells are the ONLY types of spells that can be cast in astral space, making this a little... a lot odd. Does this also allow physical spells to be cast on the astral? If so you're going to have some issues as a result of this.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| Er, mana spells are the ONLY types of spells that can be cast in astral space, making this a little... a lot odd. Does this also allow physical spells to be cast on the astral? If so you're going to have some issues as a result of this. |
I agree, as I said above. This opens up an entire can of worms that I'd rather not have in my game.
| QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jan 29 2004, 01:48 PM) |
| Does this also allow physical spells to be cast on the astral? |
Yes, you will be able to cast physical spells on the astral plane as long as the target of the spell is a valid grounding target. The key to grounding is having a physical (mundane) component bound to an awakened (astral) component. Non-manifested spirits do not have a physical component to ground into, and are therefore not valid targets for physical spells. A projecting mage does have a physical component lying around somewhere, and so would be a valid grounding target.
Please note that the physical spell still wouldn't have a direct effect on anything on the astral plane (other than the grounding target, of course). Grounding a Fireball into a projecting mage would form a fireball around the projecting mage's meat body in Toledo, not his astral body in Chicago.
[edit]
BTW, where exactly does it say physical spells can't be cast on the astral plane?
So does this mean a person could ground a spell through a perceiving Adept? What about a manifested Spirit? How about any ghoul/shapeshifter/dual-natured critter?
Sorry, no books at the moment, so I don't have a page reference for you at the moment about the prohibition of casting Physical spells while Projecting.
Sorry, no books at the moment, so I don't have a page reference for you at the moment about the prohibition of casting Physical spells while Projecting.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| So does this mean a person could ground a spell through a perceiving Adept? What about a manifested Spirit? How about any ghoul/shapeshifter/dual-natured critter? |
Yep.
Then it'll pretty much end up as a mage munchkinfest. Summon a Force 1 Spirit and have it manifest among a group of mundanes. SPLAT! No defence whatsoever, and the Mage never has to leave the Astral.
No thanks. Not for my games, at least. I like magic, but that is too much.
No thanks. Not for my games, at least. I like magic, but that is too much.
| QUOTE (Spookymonster @ Jan 29 2004, 05:46 PM) |
| where exactly does it say physical spells can't be cast on the astral plane? |
SR3 p. 178, Spells, Type, Mana: "Only mana spells affect astral forms."
SR3 p. 182 Astral Spellcasting: "Astral targets (including dual beings) can only be affected by mana spells."
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Then it'll pretty much end up as a mage munchkinfest. Summon a Force 1 Spirit and have it manifest among a group of mundanes. SPLAT! No defence whatsoever, and the Mage never has to leave the Astral. No thanks. Not for my games, at least. I like magic, but that is too much. |
As long as the mage is only casting a Force 1 spell through a Force 1 spirit, sure, that'll work just like you said. But if he's trying to cast a Force 4 Fireball, he's going to have to be a rating 4 Initiate. Even then, he's going to have a penalty applied to the success and drain rolls unless he uses a Force 4 or greater spirit. (Hmm... Herald's penalty suggestion definitely sounds better in a case like this...)
| QUOTE (OurTeam) | ||
SR3 p. 178, Spells, Type, Mana: "Only mana spells affect astral forms." SR3 p. 182 Astral Spellcasting: "Astral targets (including dual beings) can only be affected by mana spells." |
Again, where does it say physical spells can't be cast on the astral plane? Both of the reference prove that astral targets can't be affected by physical spells on the astral plane. Grounding doesn't violate that rule. Grounding a Fireball on an astrally projecting mage won't make him burst into flames on the astral plane. However, his body back in Chicago might get a little toasty. The astral form is merely a conduit for the real target, the corresponding physical form.
Again, I'm not talking about making grounding available to everyone, only to Initiates. Even then, the character would have to be a fairly experienced Initiate (rank 3+) to do some serious damage with it.
If physical spells can not hurt anyone on the astral plan, and grounding a spell into the physical world is no longer a possibility (except in your games) why would they put a rule in the books saying physical spells can not be cast in the Astral world? To me if physical spells don't work in the astral and can't be used to hit targets in the physical, then I would just assume physical spells can't be used in the astral, no need for it to be in print.
I don't find any fault in that logic.
| QUOTE (Frag-o Delux) |
| If physical spells can not hurt anyone on the astral plan, and grounding a spell into the physical world is no longer a possibility (except in your games) why would they put a rule in the books saying physical spells can not be cast in the Astral world? To me if physical spells don't work in the astral and can't be used to hit targets in the physical, then I would just assume physical spells can't be used in the astral, no need for it to be in print. |
This is a non sequitur fallacy - Affirming the Consequent. If physical spells could be cast on the astral, then astral objects could be affected. But astral objects can't be affected by physical spells. Therefore, physical spells can't be cast on the astral.
Consider the converse: if mana spells could be cast on the mundane plane, then unliving objects could be affected. But unliving objects can't be affected by mana spells. Therefore, mana spells can't be cast on the mundane plane. This is clearly absurd, even though no where in the rulebooks does it explicitly state that mana spells can be cast on the mundane plane.
Astral objects are immune to physical spells cast on the astral plane because the laws of nature are different on the astral plane. There is no matter or energy for a physical spell to interact with. There's nothing to fuel a Fireball, no organic bodies to Petrify, no gravity to Levitate against, etc. They don't work because they can't work. Astral space simply won't allow it. Without a conduit to the mundane plane, physical spells are useless. And by SR3 canon, there is no way to create that conduit.
Grounding would allow the Initiate to pierce the veil between planes in a limited way, giving them access to a dimension where physical spells can work the way they're supposed to. The Fireball still explodes in the mundane, not the astral.
There's no fallacy. He's saying that the rule (casting physical spells from the astral) doesn't appear in print because it's already impossible. The only reason the writers would add such a redundant rule is to clarify an issue that could be easily confused, which it isn't.
You've confused his post with an explanation of "you can't cast physical spells from the astral". (That's in the spell targeting rules. If you have no valid target for a spell, you can't cast it.) He's just explaining why the rule doesn't appear explicitly.
You've confused his post with an explanation of "you can't cast physical spells from the astral". (That's in the spell targeting rules. If you have no valid target for a spell, you can't cast it.) He's just explaining why the rule doesn't appear explicitly.
Thanks Zazen, when I read his post yesterday my brain frozen and I was about to leave to go to my weekly SR session and could not think of a way to express myself.
But like Zazen said so nicely, th person you asked to show proof can not do so because the proof will not be there to find, because would have been no reason to write a rule to cover something that is already covered by I am sure a paragraph or 2 of other rules stating somethig can not be done.
Like I said before, Ground thogh it may work in your games, I have no use for it. I was just tryint to offer some things to look for.
Such as mages becoming very rare in your games or frying your whole team with a mage that himself can not be hurt. Once a player finds something that is really powerful they will want it, especially if it is used against them with great effect. If you don't allow them to have for what ever reason and you continue to use it against them they will resent you, and if they do get it prepare to be defending against it a lot.
It is the same with APDS, in our games it was nevr heard of, except by one character mine, I never used until our GM had use go against soemthing we were un-abile to fight. I used it flatened our GMs plans, the GM decided to get bad on us and use another situation that we could not win (instead of changing the story he decided enough fire power will keep us out), after throughly kicking our asses evryone on the teamstarte loading up on APDS like it was at a garage sale. For the longest time the GM had to play with a team that APDS for every weapon known to man. After a while we retreated to our nuetral coners and decided the APDS thing was gettign out of hand. The other day a similar situation came up and I temineded the GM about the APDS era. You have to plan for the abuse of power that the players and GM are prone to, for me the Grounding effect looks a lot like one of those things.
But like Zazen said so nicely, th person you asked to show proof can not do so because the proof will not be there to find, because would have been no reason to write a rule to cover something that is already covered by I am sure a paragraph or 2 of other rules stating somethig can not be done.
Like I said before, Ground thogh it may work in your games, I have no use for it. I was just tryint to offer some things to look for.
Such as mages becoming very rare in your games or frying your whole team with a mage that himself can not be hurt. Once a player finds something that is really powerful they will want it, especially if it is used against them with great effect. If you don't allow them to have for what ever reason and you continue to use it against them they will resent you, and if they do get it prepare to be defending against it a lot.
It is the same with APDS, in our games it was nevr heard of, except by one character mine, I never used until our GM had use go against soemthing we were un-abile to fight. I used it flatened our GMs plans, the GM decided to get bad on us and use another situation that we could not win (instead of changing the story he decided enough fire power will keep us out), after throughly kicking our asses evryone on the teamstarte loading up on APDS like it was at a garage sale. For the longest time the GM had to play with a team that APDS for every weapon known to man. After a while we retreated to our nuetral coners and decided the APDS thing was gettign out of hand. The other day a similar situation came up and I temineded the GM about the APDS era. You have to plan for the abuse of power that the players and GM are prone to, for me the Grounding effect looks a lot like one of those things.
| QUOTE (Zazen) |
| There's no fallacy. He's saying that the rule (casting physical spells from the astral) doesn't appear in print because it's already impossible. The only reason the writers would add such a redundant rule is to clarify an issue that could be easily confused, which it isn't. |
Now you're missing the point by Begging the Question. Since casting physical spells on the astral is impossible, the authors felt it wasn't necessary to write a rule explicitly saying so. For your proposition to be true (the author's didn't think it was necessary), we'd have to already agree that the conclusion is true (physical spells can't be cast on the astral). But we don't all agree on that. If we did, we wouldn't still be arguing
.| QUOTE |
| You've confused his post with an explanation of "you can't cast physical spells from the astral". (That's in the spell targeting rules. If you have no valid target for a spell, you can't cast it.) |
Where exactly does it say that you can't cast a spell without having a valid target? The very first line under Spell Targeting (SR3, p.181) simply reads, "...the caster must be able to see the target and must be present on the same plane (physical or astral) as the target". What is missing here is the or else part - the caster must have a valid target or else.... Or else what? Is it, 'or else they cannot cast a spell', as you propose? Or is it, 'or else the spell automatically fails', which is my proposition?
Consider this example: the Entertainment spell is a directed illusion that requires a voluntary target. A mage tries to cast an Entertainment illusion of a big pink elephant at a crowd of involuntary targets (tough crowd!). The crowd is involuntary, therefore he doesn't have a valid target for casting. According to your interpretation, the spell can't be cast without a valid target. According to my proposition (as well as MITS, p.50), the spell can still be cast, but will automatically fail.
One last bit of evidence to support my theory that physical spells can indeed be cast on the astral plane (even if they are mostly useless). SR3, p. 182, under Astral Spellcasting:
| QUOTE |
| An astrally projecting character can cast a spell at any astral form he can see. |
And a few lines later:
| QUOTE |
| Astral targets (including dual beings) can only be affected by mana spells. |
If the authors were 'avoiding redundancy' by not explicitly ruling out physical spell casting on the astral, why do they go through such great pains to repeat themselves here? Why not simply say, "an astrally projecting character can cast mana spells at any astral form he can see', or even better, '...only cast mana spells...'?
[edit]
As with all house rules proposed here on Dumpshock, feel free not to include these in your game world
. I personally miss the Grounding rules from SR2, but then I prefer a magic-heavy campaign.Hmmm... maybe if we balanced Grounding by incorporating those magic astral bullets everyone's always trying to create?
I didn't really consider that there is a difference between being unable to cast a spell and being unable to affect anything with a spell. Even now after some thought, I don't see a real difference.
Also, I find people who tell me the names of logical fallacies I'm supposedly using to be the weakest at argument in general. Rather than pointing to a web site listing general classifications of mistakes, tell me specifically why I am making a mistake. It is a thousand times more helpful and effective.
Also, I find people who tell me the names of logical fallacies I'm supposedly using to be the weakest at argument in general. Rather than pointing to a web site listing general classifications of mistakes, tell me specifically why I am making a mistake. It is a thousand times more helpful and effective.
I think it would be much more in line with SR3 if you allowed a projecting charatcer to possess an active foci as a metamagic. It allows the same end results and endangers the magician as well (balance).
Now that's awesome. I'll be using that. Soon.
| QUOTE (Zazen) |
| I didn't really consider that there is a difference between being unable to cast a spell and being unable to affect anything with a spell. Even now after some thought, I don't see a real difference. |
Being unable to affect something does not necessarily imply you cannot try to affect something. Just because I can't kill you with a Nerf football doesn't mean I can't try to kill you with it. I can still throw it at your head with all my strength, can't I? There is a difference.
| QUOTE |
Also, I find people who tell me the names of logical fallacies I'm supposedly using to be the weakest at argument in general. |
Now you're just changing the subject with an ad hominem attack against me (and an abusive one, at that). Whether my debating skills are weak or strong is irrelevant. Insulting me has no effect on the strength (or weakness) of the case I've presented - the facts speak for themselves.
| QUOTE |
| Rather than pointing to a web site listing general classifications of mistakes, tell me specifically why I am making a mistake. It is a thousand times more helpful and effective. |
Each time I've pointed out a logical fallacy, I've also included a proof of why it is incorrect. I crafted each explanation using the proofs listed on the associated link. Take another look at my posts if you don't believe me.
Kanada Ten: Hmmmm... interesting idea......
[edit]
Oops... wrong link.. fixed.
I wonder what happens if your body dies while possessing a foci...
Imp anyone?
Imp anyone?
So it would let a mage posses a foci thus putting him on the physical plane? Allowing him to cast spells at the sam? OK I guess.
Now how would that put the mage in danger? Would he take the damage the Foci did when it is attacked? What happens if a mundane grabs the Foci and breaks it, like throwing it in a fire or something?
Just curious to see what your thoughts are behind this Meta-magic.
Also, if you were to allow this, how would you protect your foci from it? Could you add karma to protect it? Some other defense pool to defend against possession or just have the Foci resist it?
Now how would that put the mage in danger? Would he take the damage the Foci did when it is attacked? What happens if a mundane grabs the Foci and breaks it, like throwing it in a fire or something?
Just curious to see what your thoughts are behind this Meta-magic.
Also, if you were to allow this, how would you protect your foci from it? Could you add karma to protect it? Some other defense pool to defend against possession or just have the Foci resist it?
Ummm. Exactly.
The mage would have to battle the foci in astral combat, succeed, and then fight to keep the foci active.
If the foci was deactivated, the mage would be forced onto the astral.
Any mana or stun attacks on the foci would affect the magicain, I think.
Protecting foci... hum... yeah, extra karma and warding.
The mage would have to battle the foci in astral combat, succeed, and then fight to keep the foci active.
If the foci was deactivated, the mage would be forced onto the astral.
Any mana or stun attacks on the foci would affect the magicain, I think.
Protecting foci... hum... yeah, extra karma and warding.
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) | ||
Being unable to affect something does not necessarily imply you cannot try to affect something. Just because I can't kill you with a Nerf football doesn't mean I can't try to kill you with it. I can still throw it at your head with all my strength, can't I? There is a difference. |
Is there here, though? The thing in question, physical spells affecting anything from the astral, cannot happen. That's true no matter how you explain it.
You can't kill me with a completely imaginary nerf ball. You can try and fail or you can simply accept that you can't, and if you try I'll have no way of knowing whether you tried or pretended to try. You might not know either. There's really no difference in terms of observable phenomena.
And I'm sorry if it felt like I was attacking you, I didn't mean it that way. It really is a bad habit, though. Those sites are fine to look at, but don't name peoples alleged mistakes as if to say "bad dog!". It's downright unfriendly, and oftentimes it's plain wrong.
| QUOTE (Zazen) |
| The thing in question, physical spells affecting anything from the astral, cannot happen. That's true no matter how you explain it. |
Agreed.
| QUOTE |
You can't kill me with a completely imaginary nerf ball. You can try and fail or you can simply accept that you can't, and if you try I'll have no way of knowing whether you tried or pretended to try. You might not know either. There's really no difference in terms of observable phenomena. |
Actually, there is. If I throw a Nerf football, you can see my arm move, you can see the Nerf fly, etc. If a mage spellcasts, you can see his "aura shimmer with the energies of the spell as it is cast" (p.181), regardless of the success or failure of the casting. However, observation of an action is irrelevant to taking that action. I don't have to be seen throwing a football for me to actually make the throw. Whether or not the throw is successful (i.e., hits the target) is irrelevant - I can still try.
I'm not saying that casting physical spells on the astral has any beneficial effect as the rules currently stand. I understand that casting physicals is pointless as the rules currently are today. What I'm trying to get across is that there is no game mechanism other than the "can't cast across planes" rule that would need to be bent or broken to implement Grounding.
| QUOTE (Spookymonster) |
| What I'm trying to get across is that there is no game mechanism other than the "can't cast across planes" rule that would need to be bent or broken to implement Grounding. |
I agree totally, so there's no point in continuing to argue the finer semantic details of what we were talking about
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