Okay, so according to SR4 (base), a commlink is limited by its RESPONSE for the number of programs it can run without loosing processing power. At first, I thought that was OKAY. It makes sense that your commlink can't run every program in your repitoire every round. But the more I think about it, the more it seems stupid.
Okay, so let's take a starting runner, with a commlink that has all ratings at 5. Assuming firewall is not a "Standard" Program (that is, firewall is always active, and is not part of the program response limit), our hacker breaking into a node should have Stealth, Exploit, Analyse, Browse, and one other program (depending on what they want to do, command for opening a door, edit for editing paydata, Spoof if you want to spoof a system, etc.) Then, Black IC shows up. THE HACKER IS SCREWED! They have to dump all their programs (except, MAYBE stealth) and spend 4 complex actions loading Armor, biofeedback filter, Medic, and Attack. That's four attacks where the IC just gets to pound on them. Am I missing something? How is anyone ever supposed to win in Cybercombat, unless they basically run with too many programs, which lowers all programs to a maximum of 4 and their Response at 4?
Full Version: How can hackers even hack?
You run with 1 less than twicew your response (at a 5 that is 9 programs running) and you are only at -1 Response for Initiative... remember, you are not caught in a spiral of doom here... all tally's are based upon your BASE ratings...
Also, use of The Program Option known as Ergonomic allows you to set a program that is not counted for the Limits of Response Degradation... You can have as amny of these programs as your Response Rating, so at a Rating 5 Response, you can run 14 programs with only a -1 to Response as long as 5 of them are Ergonomic...
Keep the Faith
Also, use of The Program Option known as Ergonomic allows you to set a program that is not counted for the Limits of Response Degradation... You can have as amny of these programs as your Response Rating, so at a Rating 5 Response, you can run 14 programs with only a -1 to Response as long as 5 of them are Ergonomic...
Keep the Faith
Firewall is always active, so it doesn't count to your response limit.
Honestly, Cybercombat is often times your last resort. At my table, normal hacks are started with a Stealth, Exploit and Analyze. Stealth, you just want all the time running in the background. Exploit you need for the initial hack. Analyze for your perception tests. I see Edit commonly load as well, unless there is a specific program expected to be used.
Anyways, once you are in, normally you want to check for any alerts and do some perceptions to get a feel for the node. Exploit is no longer needed, so that can get dropped, maybe run a Browse program.
If a Black IC just shows up, and you are not attacking it, it needs to perceive through your Stealth to even notice you. And if it does, that's no guarantee that it will attack unless it came here to attack you based on your actions or an alert.
But you are correct, it takes a complex action to run a new program and have it available. I think the only thing you may be missing is that just because you have broke in the node, doesn't mean that its an all out attack on you from that point forward. You are in as some sort of user and have access to do a bunch of stuff legally. When you start using your Hacking skill to do illegal things in the node, then there is a chance you will get caught doing it, but they have to get past your Stealth.
And note, a lower response, in your example, is only 1 die, which isn't a big deal. If you think you may be getting into cybercombat, then it well worth the extra die to load 5 more programs, right?
Honestly, Cybercombat is often times your last resort. At my table, normal hacks are started with a Stealth, Exploit and Analyze. Stealth, you just want all the time running in the background. Exploit you need for the initial hack. Analyze for your perception tests. I see Edit commonly load as well, unless there is a specific program expected to be used.
Anyways, once you are in, normally you want to check for any alerts and do some perceptions to get a feel for the node. Exploit is no longer needed, so that can get dropped, maybe run a Browse program.
If a Black IC just shows up, and you are not attacking it, it needs to perceive through your Stealth to even notice you. And if it does, that's no guarantee that it will attack unless it came here to attack you based on your actions or an alert.
But you are correct, it takes a complex action to run a new program and have it available. I think the only thing you may be missing is that just because you have broke in the node, doesn't mean that its an all out attack on you from that point forward. You are in as some sort of user and have access to do a bunch of stuff legally. When you start using your Hacking skill to do illegal things in the node, then there is a chance you will get caught doing it, but they have to get past your Stealth.
And note, a lower response, in your example, is only 1 die, which isn't a big deal. If you think you may be getting into cybercombat, then it well worth the extra die to load 5 more programs, right?
Also, I can't seem to find rules to make your own custom Comlink. Used to be if you were using off the shelf gear you were not using the best there is. The way to have the best ware was to build your own.
QUOTE (Mister Book @ Sep 15 2009, 12:25 PM) 
Also, I can't seem to find rules to make your own custom Comlink. Used to be if you were using off the shelf gear you were not using the best there is. The way to have the best ware was to build your own.
They are extended Hardware tests to augment your Comlink Stats... anything above rating 6 (which is Top of the Line) is GM Fiat...
So Far, MY GM has allowed me to obtain a Rating 7 Firewall, I have wrote a Rating 7 System and have built a Rating 8 Response Chip... Ratings as High as 10+ are described in various sections of Unwired...
And Yes... The nest is when you build your own...
there are lots of add-ons to augment the Hacker that are readily available and easy to add...
Hi long time lurker, first time poster. I beg you be merciful.
Regarding Degauss' post, if someone could clear this up for me as well, I would be grateful.
In the 4.0 core it states that:
"Response may be affected if you run too many programs.
For every x number of programs you have actively running,
where x = System rating, your Response is reduced by 1. So if
you’re running 10 programs with a System 5, your Response
will be reduced by 2."
"System also measures the OS’s
ability to run other programs—an OS cannot run a program
with a rating higher than the OS rating.
A System program is limited by the Response rating of the
device it is on; a System run on a device with a lower Response
rating functions at the Response rating instead."
Does this then mean that
A deck with
System 3
Response 3
and running 4 programs
now has all of it's programs running at 2?
This would be due to the response pulling down the system, which pulls down the programs?
Regarding Degauss' post, if someone could clear this up for me as well, I would be grateful.
In the 4.0 core it states that:
"Response may be affected if you run too many programs.
For every x number of programs you have actively running,
where x = System rating, your Response is reduced by 1. So if
you’re running 10 programs with a System 5, your Response
will be reduced by 2."
"System also measures the OS’s
ability to run other programs—an OS cannot run a program
with a rating higher than the OS rating.
A System program is limited by the Response rating of the
device it is on; a System run on a device with a lower Response
rating functions at the Response rating instead."
Does this then mean that
A deck with
System 3
Response 3
and running 4 programs
now has all of it's programs running at 2?
This would be due to the response pulling down the system, which pulls down the programs?
QUOTE (Blitzkrieg @ Sep 15 2009, 01:17 PM)
Hi long time lurker, first time poster. I beg you be merciful.
Regarding Degauss' post, if someone could clear this up for me as well, I would be grateful.
In the 4.0 core it states that:
"Response may be affected if you run too many programs.
For every x number of programs you have actively running,
where x = System rating, your Response is reduced by 1. So if
you’re running 10 programs with a System 5, your Response
will be reduced by 2."
"System also measures the OS’s
ability to run other programs—an OS cannot run a program
with a rating higher than the OS rating.
A System program is limited by the Response rating of the
device it is on; a System run on a device with a lower Response
rating functions at the Response rating instead."
Does this then mean that
A deck with
System 3
Response 3
and running 4 programs
now has all of it's programs running at 2?
This would be due to the response pulling down the system, which pulls down the programs?
Regarding Degauss' post, if someone could clear this up for me as well, I would be grateful.
In the 4.0 core it states that:
"Response may be affected if you run too many programs.
For every x number of programs you have actively running,
where x = System rating, your Response is reduced by 1. So if
you’re running 10 programs with a System 5, your Response
will be reduced by 2."
"System also measures the OS’s
ability to run other programs—an OS cannot run a program
with a rating higher than the OS rating.
A System program is limited by the Response rating of the
device it is on; a System run on a device with a lower Response
rating functions at the Response rating instead."
Does this then mean that
A deck with
System 3
Response 3
and running 4 programs
now has all of it's programs running at 2?
This would be due to the response pulling down the system, which pulls down the programs?
No... All comparisons are at the comlink's base rating...
You cannot run a program of higher than a rating 3 (due to System Restraints) unless you have program options that allow such...
You cannot run more than 2 programs without Response degradation (due to Response Rating), unless you have program options that allow such...
So in your example... A Comlink with Ratings of 3 across the board running 4 programs have their programs running at rating 3, but your Initiative is reduced by 1 due to the load of programs running on the system (4 Programs on rating 3 system)... eventually your system will slow down and you will eventually obtain a Response of 0 (if you have loaded 9 or more programs simultaneously)
Thanks, I've been mulling that one over for a while.
So the key part is the base Rating not the modified ratings.
<I just found and read the other topic on this. Sorry bout that.>
So the key part is the base Rating not the modified ratings.
<I just found and read the other topic on this. Sorry bout that.>
QUOTE (Blitzkrieg @ Sep 15 2009, 01:27 PM)
Thanks, I've been mulling that one over for a while.
So the key part is the base Rating not the modified ratings.
<I just found and read the other topic on this. Sorry bout that.>
So the key part is the base Rating not the modified ratings.
<I just found and read the other topic on this. Sorry bout that.>
Yes... the better comlink you can afford the better, if you plan on being a hacker or rigger... or anything else for that matter in truth...
Are Technomancers affected by this limit on the number of programs they can run or can they go hog-wild... As they cannot go cold-simmed and if they are attacked then their BRAIN is being attacked
QUOTE (SR4A p. 239)
Any number of a technomancer’s complex forms can be used without
affecting Response; all of a technomancer’s complex forms are considered
running unless specifically “deactivated� by the technomancer.
affecting Response; all of a technomancer’s complex forms are considered
running unless specifically “deactivated� by the technomancer.
On a side note, how do you think commlink's are physically secured? Finger/palm prints? DNA sampling?
QUOTE (nylanfs @ Sep 15 2009, 06:17 PM)
On a side note, how do you think commlink's are physically secured? Finger/palm prints? DNA sampling?
Biometric Locks are one wat to go about doing that...
An implanted Comlink is another option...
I'm thinking of the standard commlinks that everyone caries. When a character caps somebody, then takes their commlink I'm just wondering what types of security they have to work past, and then based on that how fast everything gets locked down. Ie bank accounts, email accounts etc.
In the last game where a player did this, I just ran it as it was an unsecured commlink (just like a current cellphone), and ruled that the accounts were locked via a account number and password. And the player rolled crappy to try and figure out what they were (this character didn't really have any computer skills to speak of) so I just ruled the bank locked the account until the account owner could contact the bank directly and unlock it. But that was just winging it, I'd like to get some thoughts from the DS crowd.
In the last game where a player did this, I just ran it as it was an unsecured commlink (just like a current cellphone), and ruled that the accounts were locked via a account number and password. And the player rolled crappy to try and figure out what they were (this character didn't really have any computer skills to speak of) so I just ruled the bank locked the account until the account owner could contact the bank directly and unlock it. But that was just winging it, I'd like to get some thoughts from the DS crowd.
QUOTE (nylanfs @ Sep 15 2009, 07:02 PM)
I'm thinking of the standard commlinks that everyone caries. When a character caps somebody, then takes their commlink I'm just wondering what types of security they have to work past, and then based on that how fast everything gets locked down. Ie bank accounts, email accounts etc.
In the last game where a player did this, I just ran it as it was an unsecured commlink (just like a current cellphone), and ruled that the accounts were locked via a account number and password. And the player rolled crappy to try and figure out what they were (this character didn't really have any computer skills to speak of) so I just ruled the bank locked the account until the account owner could contact the bank directly and unlock it. But that was just winging it, I'd like to get some thoughts from the DS crowd.
In the last game where a player did this, I just ran it as it was an unsecured commlink (just like a current cellphone), and ruled that the accounts were locked via a account number and password. And the player rolled crappy to try and figure out what they were (this character didn't really have any computer skills to speak of) so I just ruled the bank locked the account until the account owner could contact the bank directly and unlock it. But that was just winging it, I'd like to get some thoughts from the DS crowd.
You could probably guarantee that the standard comlink node is at the very least encrypted, maybe with a Databomb on the access port to catch hackers unawares if they just brute their way into the link... maybe the file memory area is also protected by a Data Bomb as well... that would probably be the limit of "standard" run of the mill links in everyday useage...
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