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Wounded Ronin
Today I had a life-changing experience. I read the SR first edition Food Fight. It convinced me that by having missed SR 1st edition I truly missed a date with destiny. Actually, everything in that book is so awesomely 80s and that panache wasn't even fully conveyed by 2nd edition in my opinion, as someone who started playing and GMing SR 2nd edition.

When I read the following from Food Fight,

QUOTE
Wendy is a sexy lady of 23, heavily made up, with hair in the latet Nova style and dyed neon blue. She wears an armored duster over a skimpy pair of cutoffs and a halter top.


...I honestly immediately thought,

QUOTE
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"


...without even feeling it was necessary to apologize on any level to Percy Bysshe Shelley.

In any case I reflected on the differences between the first edition Food Fight and the later editions of Food Fight. For example, it seems like in the first edition, Wendy's high heels were only a negative, giving her grotesque penalties to all physical actions, whereas in a later edition they also gave her stupidly injurious kicking power.

The more I thought about it the more things about the scenario seemed to not really make sense to me, and the more I thought about how the scenario could be edited in order to make sense, be more realistic, but at the same time be more fun. In my personal experience, I GMed Food Fight once, and seen it as a player twice, if I recall correctly. I seem to remember that Food Fight, when run with new players tends to result in a TPK anyway because the players are usually outnumbered and outgunned and not in defensive positions. So, just a few thoughts...

The Premise

In real life, if I, not being a hardcore 80s uzi mercenary but rather a civilian, entered a convienience store that was being cased by three obvious gang members, I'd like to think that I'd observe them, pick up a vibe, and leave. I believe that in the context of the contemporary United States most anyone who has either lived on the street, or deals with a lot of people from the street (eg. a cop), has developed situational awareness precisely centered around noticing when violent individuals are observing something or someone in preparation to commit a violent crime. Therefore, a tough survivor from the streets such as a Shadowrunner probably would not enter the store and begin obliviously shopping for groceries in the situation presented in Food Fight especially given that two of the Chiller Thrillers casing the store, Slicer Dicer and Static, are extremely distinctive-looking and Static is behaving as though he is a delusional crackhead by talking to inanimate objects.

The whole situation would seem a lot more plausible if different gang members, the more stable ones, were the ones casing the store. Then you could at least play along with the idea that are intelligent and sociopathically coolheaded enough so that they're able to avoid giving off a bad vibe that would make everyone leave the store right away. In other words, I'd replace Slicer Dicer and Static with Catcher, the gang leader, and Spike, the timorous n00b, who perhaps believes at this time they're only going to steal food, which is why he doesn't give off the impending violence vibe.

Then Slicer Dicer and Static could be the ones who burst into the store later while everyone is shopping for groceries.


Escalation to violence

According to the scenario after the whole gang invades the store they walk around harassing and bullying everyone hoping to goad someone to violence. In other words they don't just run the walls like SWAT and headshot everyone, but instead swagger around and wait for a pretext to begin executing people.

IMO this makes the difference between a guaranteed TPK and the chance for the party to kill the gangers or even the chance to get away through the storeroom (which in real life would be the most realistic thing you'd want to do in that kind of situation). But what it means that that the player characters being able to kill the gang members really depends on the player characters choosing the right moment to act, so that they can simultaneously incapacitate as many gang members as possible while the gang members are focused on something else.

I don't really feel the traditional initiative rules work best for this since it's not a straight-up combat situation. A lot of it would boil down to observation, nerves, and sleight of hand. If a player wants to suddenly attack a gang member, I feel that maybe it should be handled by a Stealth roll instead of an immediate initiative roll. Basically, every gang member gets the chance to beat the player's Stealth roll, with their TN modified up or down by which direction they're facing and whether or not they're distracted by something else. If nobody notices the player action, the player gets 1 free attack (2 simple actions or 1 complex action, if we're talking 3rd edition rules), and then everyone rolls initiative and the fight is on. If all of the gangbangers notice the action by beating the stealth roll we roll initiative like normal. If some notice and others don't, the ones who notice roll initiative, and act in the order of the initiative, but only for one attack. Afterwards we roll initiative again and combat proceeds as normal. Maybe the same test should apply to fellow player characters as well to see if the other player characters would have the opportunity to act in coordiation with the player attempting the initial sneak attack.

Likewise if someone wants to slip out the back door and escape, if that's remotely plausible given their position in the store, that can be handled by Stealth as normal. Actually, the only reason I wouldn't see most highly skilled illegal mercenaries attempting to evade in this way would be if they don't want to leave their teammates behind.


Armaments and cyberware

In the first place, the big premise of Food Fight is that the player characters are supposed to be lightly armed. But if I lived in a world where people like the Chiller Thrillers were randomly knocking over convienience stores I'd be a lot more heavily armed than I normally am in real life. In real life I own a variety of rifles and handguns but I don't carry any weapons with me on the street even when I work in "bad" parts of town. But if there were a chance every time I went to the 7-11 that I might be bum rushed by several dudes with shotguns and SMGs I'd probably walk around wearing a level IIIA vest and if at all possible an automatic Glock 18 on the grounds that I'd need as much firepower as possible.

So if I were the GM, who would be I to say that the player characters shouldn't be walking around wearing their Armor Jackets and having concealed submachineguns? In 1st edition rules it seems like a Predator has the same concealability as a Uzi III or HK227 S variant, so why would someone not take the latter? The only way I could see to make the under-armed thing make sense would be if as a GM I specified that whatever a player is carrying to the Stuffer Shack would need to have a certain Concealability rating that was so stringent as to restrict a lot of the most powerful weapons.

On that note, why are the gang members who are supposedly casing out the Stuffer Shack equipped with full-length shotguns? In order for the scenario to make more sense, the gang members who are casing the Stuffer Shack should have Uzi IIIs, since Uzis both fit with the gangbanger image a little better, and are more concealable in terms of the rules.

However, for shock value, I'd have the gangbangers who are hiding in the van outside and who bust into the Stuffer Shack have AK-97s, and maybe one of them has the Defiance T-250.

Possibly Wendy could have dual revolvers of some kind and the Ambidextrious edge in keeping with her Southern persona. I'd take away her silly high heels and give her cowboy boots.

Finally, the scenario states that the gang members impulsively raid stores and commit acts of violence and that they can't get money by doing this since they live in a cashless society but rather rob shoppers and loot food. However, given their relatively high threat level, and the fact they aren't dead already from this sort of impulsive behavior in a heavily-armed society, they must have a certain level of resources. The way I see it the only way they could survive these sorts of actions is if most of them had improved reflexes of some kind. As a GM I'd be willing to give everyone the cheapo chemical treatment Boosted Reflexes at level 2 for the badasses, level 1 for everyone else, and maybe not for the n00b gang member though, since he has to prove himself first. This is just to make the fact they're alive still more plausible.

As an afterthought, I'd boost the skill levels of Slicer Dicer to 6 for all his combat skills and I'd even consider making him a physad. If he impulsively knocks over stores *and* runs around using a katana and shuriken instead of firearms *and* hasn't been killed yet, he must be very good. Considering everyone else has a nice gun I'd also consider dikoting his katana or his shuriken.

Splatter table

IMO the splatter table and Difficult Terrain rules just slow down the firefight. Why use a random generation table to figure out if there's a mess when we can use common sense? Single rounds probably won't spill enough of anything to create a slip hazard. Bursts of automatic fire might in the shampoo or beverage aisle. I think that's about all that should probably happen.
tisoz
I'm just finishing up running Food Fight! (or a modification) over in Welcome to the Shadows.

I incorporated Surprise, trusted the players to outfit the PCs along roleplaying lines, and actually added another gang member to even ganger to PCs, and throw something unexpected their way.
Something I always wondered is why Wiley, the coyote shaman, didn't summon a city spirit and confuse anyone who looked dangerous. Rarely do I see this happen or have it use concealment on the gang members, especially either the casing group or the second wave. I don't have my first edition book with me, but by First Run, Wily even has the Confusion spell.

I think the hardest part for an aggressive party is figuring out who is a gang member, especially if the party doesn't know each other, and as this is usually an introduction, a big possibility.

Something that came up in this rendition was a PC being helpless and throwing himself to Slicer Dicer's mercy. (Or at least that is how I had, Slicer Dicer look at it.) It made him stop attacking, and actually think of his supposed code.
RunnerPaul
Then, of course, there's another important feature of First Edition Food Fight to consider: Sally. Do you do as the text suggest, and just use the stats from the Street Mage archtype, or do you stat her out as something more appropriate to the character as depicted in other sources?
tisoz
In 1st Ed., Sally was kind of just a book archetype. As the editions went by, and the novels, and gametime, she grew more powerful. Maybe I imagined it, but I thought in a later edition she was buffed a bit more.
Backgammon
You know what it is? There is not enough useless stuff nowadays. Descriptions of "Wendy is a sexy lady of 23, heavily made up, with hair in the latet Nova style and dyed neon blue. She wears an armored duster over a skimpy pair of cutoffs and a halter top" have a lot of useless information. A person wearing those kinds of clothes is not being efficient with their clothing. We don't have that anymore. Every room of a building needs a function, every piece of furniture has a reason, everything on you needs to pull it's value so it isn't dead weight. Shadowrun needs more badly designed buildings with wated rooms and hallways, people need to wear far more accessories and garments than necessary. People need to talk with more words than necessary. I've been reading Raymond Chandler novels. You know how much useless metaphors and banter the characters exchange? They are unable to simply state something. It has to be in metaphors and back and forth banter. Shadowrun needs more of that.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ Sep 16 2009, 12:45 AM) *
Then, of course, there's another important feature of First Edition Food Fight to consider: Sally. Do you do as the text suggest, and just use the stats from the Street Mage archtype, or do you stat her out as something more appropriate to the character as depicted in other sources?


Ah, Sally. What can I say about her? She's the mage who runs around with skimpy cutoffs, a bikini top, and a shotgun and a sword holster on her cutoffs, but is the one who manages to sneak into the supply room and infallably save the party and evade them later without a trace by "turning invisible" whether or not anyone has astral perception.

How can she be anything but an all-powerful deus ex machina? That's why I don't particularly like her being there in the way her actions and capabilities are presented.

I mean, we might as well have Chuck Norris come out of the bathroom when things get hairy. It would be funnier.
Blade
QUOTE ("Wounded Ronin")
Ah, Sally. What can I say about her? She's the mage who runs around with skimpy cutoffs, a bikini top, and a shotgun and a sword holster on her cutoffs,


As seen here in her official movie appearance.
Audious
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Sep 16 2009, 09:29 PM) *
I mean, we might as well have Chuck Norris come out of the bathroom when things get hairy. It would be funnier.


Says 2005.
Chrysalis
Well, Food fight is a child of the 80s action films. Big chrome guns, big steroes, and loser boyfriends with loser girlfriends. Coke addiction. Billy Idol.

The 21st century version is that of ex-cons holding up a liquor store. There is no zaniness, or flamboyancy in the act.
Mister Book
QUOTE (Blade @ Sep 17 2009, 10:01 AM) *
As seen here in her official movie appearance.



Oh the bad acting, oh the 80s hair, oh my soul you have hurt me.
Backgammon
QUOTE (Blade @ Sep 17 2009, 05:01 AM) *
As seen here in her official movie appearance.


Oh. My. God.

Well, apparently Sally has the Geasa of "pose like a douchebag" when casting spells. That could be used to a GM's advantage.
Mister Book
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Sep 17 2009, 12:23 PM) *
Oh. My. God.

Well, apparently Sally has the Geasa of "pose like a douchebag" when casting spells. That could be used to a GM's advantage.


In addition she must remain in that pose even after the spell was cast.


What about that bulky idiot with them? What exactly was his job other than opening wall panels?

Also, did you notice the failed stealth check, they knock a can flying down the alley when they're moving stealthily down the wall.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Sep 16 2009, 04:46 AM) *
Finally, the scenario states that the gang members impulsively raid stores and commit acts of violence and that they can't get money by doing this since they live in a cashless society but rather rob shoppers and loot food. However, given their relatively high threat level, and the fact they aren't dead already from this sort of impulsive behavior in a heavily-armed society, they must have a certain level of resources. The way I see it the only way they could survive these sorts of actions is if most of them had improved reflexes of some kind. As a GM I'd be willing to give everyone the cheapo chemical treatment Boosted Reflexes at level 2 for the badasses, level 1 for everyone else, and maybe not for the n00b gang member though, since he has to prove himself first. This is just to make the fact they're alive still more plausible.


My gang members usually are under the influence of some serious combat drugs when they had the time to plan ahead.
This gives them a boost roughly comparable to some cheap cyberware.

Regarding the weapons, you're spot-on.
I've once sifted through Arsenal just looking for both really cheap and impressively big guns to arm my gang members.
Since then, my gangers prefer the Sandler TMP, Ruger Warhawk and Street Sweeper.
Once in a while, someone carries grenades.

I always keep in mind that almost every sprawl contains zones governed solely by gangs*, which means that there's a lot of people out there who are seriously armed and have spent their whole live surviving in an urban war zone.
Thrillgangs from Z-Zones mean serious business in my game.
They're one or two levels above normal beat cops (who do not dare to enter the ganglands), and there's worlds between them and the wannabe-gangers from middle class districts, or some pathetic policlub schmock.

As far as cyber is concerned, eyes and hand razors are seen frequently.
I also tend to give the more succesful criminals a little extra, used Muscle replacement, Dermal Armor or retractable Cyberspurs being the most common.
Once in a while, there's used Wired Reflexes 2 or a cyberarm.
These pieces of 'ware appear in seasoned gang veterans (the gang boss and/or his officers), who are eager to accquire obvious 'ware as a status symbol.
Some of them may be moving up into shadowrunner territory, one piece of 'ware at a time.
Elite members of the most feared gangs are just one step away from ascending to street samurai level.

If gang members are awakened, they're usually either adepts, aspected magicians or have a spirit knack, with Magic somewhere between 2 and 4 in the first two cases.
This is a good way of plausibly coming up with an awakened ganger from time to time.


* biggest mistake of 4th Ed?
Doing away with the security ratings for neighborhoods.
Worst choice ever.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Mister Book @ Sep 17 2009, 07:03 AM) *
Oh the bad acting, oh the 80s hair, oh my soul you have hurt me.


Oh come on. That's what RPing Shadowrun is ALL ABOUT. You don't sit down to play with professional actors to portray your 80s hair runner with method acting.
Mister Book
Does it count my favorite GM was a professional actor and I do script writing?
Wounded Ronin
This whole thing lead to a discussion this morning with my mom where I explained to her the cyberpunk genre and the differences between what people thought the internet would do in the 80s and what it does today. I have been thinking about all this stuff so intensely from reading SR 1st edition.

In many ways I think I like (at least in the abstract) SR 1st edition the best. The reason is that the core rulebook touches a little bit on everything you need to know to run a game without going into too much detail, but also gives you background information on Seattle including maps. Back in the days before Google Maps as a kid in high school I had no idea what Seattle was like besides for from the Genesis game and it made it entirely a function of imagination/fantasy for me to run Shadowrun games.

The other thing is that over time people obviously saw gaps in the rules and wrote more and more offical rules that lead to 2nd edition and finally to 3rd edition. I don't really count 4th edition because that's where they discarded all the rules and got rid of the central 80s theme by giving everyone a blackberry.

However in retrospect looking at all the threads I and others have made with alternate or house rules, the 2nd edition and 3rd edition rules aren't necessarily how I would have done them if I were building up from first. So in many ways I see 1st edition as a baseline where you could build your own house rules more to your liking. For example, I think that I really liked the 3-figure damage codes where the last number was the number of successes you needed to stage damage down. That would make it easier to simulate the trauma caused by the round as opposed to its pure armor-penetrating power. If I wanted to simulate 9mm parabellum vs. .45 ACP in the game I could do so by giving 9mm slightly better power to reflect higher velocity, keep the damage code the same, but then give .45 ACP a higher number for the number of successes you need to stage it down so that 9mm would be more likely to the staged down.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Mister Book @ Sep 17 2009, 10:18 PM) *
Does it count my favorite GM was a professional actor and I do script writing?


Then you're the exception that proves the rule. smile.gif
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ Sep 17 2009, 09:25 AM) *
I always keep in mind that almost every sprawl contains zones governed solely by gangs*, which means that there's a lot of people out there who are seriously armed and have spent their whole live surviving in an urban war zone.
Thrillgangs from Z-Zones mean serious business in my game.
They're one or two levels above normal beat cops (who do not dare to enter the ganglands), and there's worlds between them and the wannabe-gangers from middle class districts, or some pathetic policlub schmock.


^
|
|
|
This.
eidolon
WR wins Dumpshock.

Again.

That video is pure awesome.
Kerenshara
You know we RAN a 4th Ed revised version of the 1st Ed Food Fight. I turned the results into a story that I actually posted in the Vignettes Thread:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=26976&view=findpost&p=825038

Made for a fun intro mod... even if the GM wouldn't speak to me for almost three weeks. My dice wouldn't quit that night.
SpasticTeapot
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Sep 15 2009, 10:46 PM) *
Splatter table

IMO the splatter table and Difficult Terrain rules just slow down the firefight. Why use a random generation table to figure out if there's a mess when we can use common sense? Single rounds probably won't spill enough of anything to create a slip hazard. Bursts of automatic fire might in the shampoo or beverage aisle. I think that's about all that should probably happen.


The splatter table is the best part!



QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Sep 17 2009, 04:45 AM) *
Well, Food fight is a child of the 80s action films. Big chrome guns, big steroes, and loser boyfriends with loser girlfriends. Coke addiction. Billy Idol.

The 21st century version is that of ex-cons holding up a liquor store. There is no zaniness, or flamboyancy in the act.


The 21st century is depressing.
Link
I agree with Teapot's posts. (How do quote?)
Link
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Sep 18 2009, 02:30 AM) *
However in retrospect looking at all the threads I and others have made with alternate or house rules, the 2nd edition and 3rd edition rules aren't necessarily how I would have done them if I were building up from first. So in many ways I see 1st edition as a baseline where you could build your own house rules more to your liking. For example, I think that I really liked the 3-figure damage codes where the last number was the number of successes you needed to stage damage down. That would make it easier to simulate the trauma caused by the round as opposed to its pure armor-penetrating power. If I wanted to simulate 9mm parabellum vs. .45 ACP in the game I could do so by giving 9mm slightly better power to reflect higher velocity, keep the damage code the same, but then give .45 ACP a higher number for the number of successes you need to stage it down so that 9mm would be more likely to the staged down.

I reached this same conclusion after following (with minor contribution) the SR3R project. Start with the source and go from there.
tisoz
QUOTE (Link @ Sep 18 2009, 02:44 AM) *
I agree with Teapot's posts. (How do quote?)

click on the "Quote Post" button in the lower right of the post you wish to quote.

To Multiquote, hit that button for the different posts, then hit "Add Reply" as for adding a post normally.
nezumi
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Sep 15 2009, 11:46 PM) *
In real life, if I, not being a hardcore 80s uzi mercenary but rather a civilian, entered a convienience store that was being cased by three obvious gang members, I'd like to think that I'd observe them, pick up a vibe, and leave.


I've run food fight half a dozen times (I've made it a tradition that all campaigns open with food fight - regardless as to system) and you're 100% right on this. Characters should get more of a vibe if something is off. However, 2nd/3rd edition, the two people casing the joint are pretty low-key (the one chick in the corner, and the crazy guy mumbling quietly to himself. In the case of the latter, that's pretty standard urban neighbor. I ride the bus with the guy and he's NEVER pulled a gun on me.) Funny thing is, twice people have picked up on the lady. They've never bothered with the mumbling guy.

QUOTE
But what it means that that the player characters being able to kill the gang members really depends on the player characters choosing the right moment to act, so that they can simultaneously incapacitate as many gang members as possible while the gang members are focused on something else.


My PCs generally wait until the gangers are occupied by whichever one PC was brave enough to make a fuss first, hold their actions, and shoot the responding gangers in the back. In cases like this, it's almost always a situation of first PC going, the gangers going, then the rest of the PCs, who held their actions, going. I do rule that gangers can't act against characters who won in a stealth check against them. I guess I've never really ran into a situation where the rules caused much trouble here, but I'm willing to brush over details more than some. (Keep in mind also, store shelves block LOS).

QUOTE
In the first place, the big premise of Food Fight is that the player characters are supposed to be lightly armed.


This isn't described properly in the scenario, but 'lightly armed' is what is appropriate for the neighborhood, and for the stuffer shack. Stuffer shack doesn't allow weapons, so all weapons must be hidden. PCs can wear whatever armor is appropriate, and they generally wear armored jackets, which is about the highest you can get without mil-spec gear. If this is a C zone, the party wears what they wear day-to-day in Shadowrun, which is layered armor, and carry what they carry day-to-day, which is weapons with a concealability of 6 or higher. What does the scenario limit it to?

QUOTE
On that note, why are the gang members who are supposedly casing out the Stuffer Shack equipped with full-length shotguns? In order for the scenario to make more sense, the gang members who are casing the Stuffer Shack should have Uzi IIIs, since Uzis both fit with the gangbanger image a little better, and are more concealable in terms of the rules.


Yes. Maybe I lost the written scenario too long ago, but I always had the scouts using light arms, and the people busting in using AKs and shotties.

QUOTE
Finally, the scenario states that the gang members impulsively raid stores and commit acts of violence and that they can't get money by doing this since they live in a cashless society but rather rob shoppers and loot food. However, given their relatively high threat level, and the fact they aren't dead already from this sort of impulsive behavior in a heavily-armed society, they must have a certain level of resources.


They don't do it to make profit. They do it because they're on DRUGS (or as a form of initiation, or just to show dominance). They're the knuckleheads, and the gang will be gone next week (well, tonight, because of PC intervention). They're still alive because they're willing to risk more than the next guy, and because they're just scarier!!

You are definitely right though that they really shouldn't be bothering the customers as much as bashing in windows and grabbing the medkits, the video games, and the munchies. The other people in the store take a long time to get stuff from, and it's really a gamble what you're going to get.
Blade
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Sep 16 2009, 05:46 AM) *
In real life, if I, not being a hardcore 80s uzi mercenary but rather a civilian


I guess I should change my mental image of you. grinbig.gif
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