Okay, a quick question from one of my players:
When chargenning a character with cerebral booster, do we calculate his free knowledge skill points with the natural or the augmented logic attribute?
Full Version: Cerebral Booster and free knowskill points
Technically, you shouldn't calculated modified attributes until the very end of character generation and thus, not receive free skill points. Of course, if you can talk your gamemaster into it (such as by arguing that by your character background s/he's had the implant for some considerable time), more power to you.
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Sep 20 2009, 07:44 PM) 
Technically, you shouldn't calculated modified attributes until the very end of character generation and thus, not receive free skill points. Of course, if you can talk your gamemaster into it (such as by arguing that by your character background s/he's had the implant for some considerable time), more power to you.
Woohoo, a response...In 7 minutes no less.
Who do I tip?
I take nuyen, UCAS and CAS dollars.
QUOTE (SR4A p.86)
Note that any attribute boosts gained from implants do not affect
other aspects of character creation—a boost to Logic, for example,
does not increase the Knowledge skills you start with.
other aspects of character creation—a boost to Logic, for example,
does not increase the Knowledge skills you start with.
Thank god my GM doesn't have S4A and hopefully won't read this thread. 
QUOTE (SR4 p.84)
Note that any attribute boosts gained from implants do not
affect other aspects of character creation-a boost to Logic, for
example, does not increase the Knowledge skills you start with.
affect other aspects of character creation-a boost to Logic, for
example, does not increase the Knowledge skills you start with.
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Sep 21 2009, 04:27 PM)
Thank god my GM doesn't have S4A and hopefully won't read this thread.
That's not new in 4A - that was the rule in 4th ed, as well.
And if you want to break it down further, you buy gear with your points after purchasing attributes and skills, both active and knowledge.
I might be inclined/bribed into allowing the character to purchase such skills at a redused rate - say 1 BP point per level but require they all be of a single type (Knowledge, academic, street or language) based in where you "tuned up" your new grey matter. Of couse I would need to give a comperable break if one had them installed during play once I set the precedent so I would need to be a pretty good bribe
Yeah, see, I'm the GM in this case, and I pride myself on being mostly unbribeable.
Mostly.
Mostly.
Thinking on it more I think I like the idea of it working in play for say half price on one family of background skills up to 3 times the rating increase with a max of the Cerebral Boosters rating in any skill for the redused price - one might get some installed as much for now they can learn French, Russian and Japanese up to 3 or 4 in a few weeks as for the Logic boost. Get it removed and you owe me the points and a pile of study time to not "forget" or are suddenly alot worse at French.
Even without the point break it makes good "Fluff" that learning language skills is faster if not cheaper after getting some fresh brains put in.
Even without the point break it makes good "Fluff" that learning language skills is faster if not cheaper after getting some fresh brains put in.
While the above rules citation does in fact answer the question, I have a more in depth answer for you.
Cyber/Bioware do NOT add to your stats. You're not getting 2 extra points of logic, you're getting a dice pool bonus to logic.
It's not + Str from that Muscle Aug, it's + Dice to Strength pools.
At least, that's the way I always interpreted it. So you would not add any extra knowledges to your character from a Cerebral Enh. because it's not bestowing actual Logic points, but rather a dice pool bonus to Logic tests.
Dunno where I found that, but it's in SR4 somewhere.
Cyber/Bioware do NOT add to your stats. You're not getting 2 extra points of logic, you're getting a dice pool bonus to logic.
It's not + Str from that Muscle Aug, it's + Dice to Strength pools.
At least, that's the way I always interpreted it. So you would not add any extra knowledges to your character from a Cerebral Enh. because it's not bestowing actual Logic points, but rather a dice pool bonus to Logic tests.
Dunno where I found that, but it's in SR4 somewhere.
QUOTE (Pollution @ Sep 21 2009, 04:50 PM)
While the above rules citation does in fact answer the question, I have a more in depth answer for you.
Cyber/Bioware do NOT add to your stats. You're not getting 2 extra points of logic, you're getting a dice pool bonus to logic.
It's not + Str from that Muscle Aug, it's + Dice to Strength pools.
At least, that's the way I always interpreted it. So you would not add any extra knowledges to your character from a Cerebral Enh. because it's not bestowing actual Logic points, but rather a dice pool bonus to Logic tests.
Dunno where I found that, but it's in SR4 somewhere.
Cyber/Bioware do NOT add to your stats. You're not getting 2 extra points of logic, you're getting a dice pool bonus to logic.
It's not + Str from that Muscle Aug, it's + Dice to Strength pools.
At least, that's the way I always interpreted it. So you would not add any extra knowledges to your character from a Cerebral Enh. because it's not bestowing actual Logic points, but rather a dice pool bonus to Logic tests.
Dunno where I found that, but it's in SR4 somewhere.
That is actually incorrect. You are directly adding a modifier to the attribute in question as though it were higher. Thus if you have a Log 3 and Cerebral Boosters 1, your logic is 4, and increasing it to 5 costs karma as going from 4 - 5 and not from 3 - 4.
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Sep 21 2009, 02:55 PM)
That is actually incorrect. You are directly adding a modifier to the attribute in question as though it were higher. Thus if you have a Log 3 and Cerebral Boosters 1, your logic is 4, and increasing it to 5 costs karma as going from 4 - 5 and not from 3 - 4.
This...
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Sep 21 2009, 03:55 PM)
That is actually incorrect. You are directly adding a modifier to the attribute in question as though it were higher. Thus if you have a Log 3 and Cerebral Boosters 1, your logic is 4, and increasing it to 5 costs karma as going from 4 - 5 and not from 3 - 4.
errr... no it doesn't. you buy stats as if they are not augmented. the only thing that doesn't work like that is the adept power which actually boost your stats. of course, that's mostly theoretical, since pretty darned near nobody ever takes that adept power, and that's only one of the many reasons (too expensive, too expensive, too expensive, costs double to go past natural max, too expensive, too expensive, and *way* too expensive being some of the other reasons)
QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 21 2009, 07:09 PM)
errr... no it doesn't. you buy stats as if they are not augmented. the only thing that doesn't work like that is the adept power which actually boost your stats. of course, that's mostly theoretical, since pretty darned near nobody ever takes that adept power, and that's only one of the many reasons (too expensive, too expensive, too expensive, costs double to go past natural max, too expensive, too expensive, and *way* too expensive being some of the other reasons)
I think what was meant (and I may have got it wrong) is that Stat Augments are inherent Augments to the Stat itself, not a "Dice Bonus" as was stated earlier... they actually raise the Stat through the augmentation...
Can't remember, but does not Bioware (and Geneware?) have the same drawback... bioware provided an Inherent bonus tot he stat, and you raise it at the level of the new stat (so the example of Cerebral Booster would then be correct)... I am pretty sure that that is how it was in previous editions for Bioware...
Keep the Faith
QUOTE (Pollution @ Sep 21 2009, 01:50 PM)
While the above rules citation does in fact answer the question, I have a more in depth answer for you.
Cyber/Bioware do NOT add to your stats. You're not getting 2 extra points of logic, you're getting a dice pool bonus to logic.
It's not + Str from that Muscle Aug, it's + Dice to Strength pools.
At least, that's the way I always interpreted it. So you would not add any extra knowledges to your character from a Cerebral Enh. because it's not bestowing actual Logic points, but rather a dice pool bonus to Logic tests.
Dunno where I found that, but it's in SR4 somewhere.
Cyber/Bioware do NOT add to your stats. You're not getting 2 extra points of logic, you're getting a dice pool bonus to logic.
It's not + Str from that Muscle Aug, it's + Dice to Strength pools.
At least, that's the way I always interpreted it. So you would not add any extra knowledges to your character from a Cerebral Enh. because it's not bestowing actual Logic points, but rather a dice pool bonus to Logic tests.
Dunno where I found that, but it's in SR4 somewhere.
Incorrect.
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Sep 21 2009, 01:55 PM)
That is actually incorrect. You are directly adding a modifier to the attribute in question as though it were higher. Thus if you have a Log 3 and Cerebral Boosters 1, your logic is 4, and increasing it to 5 costs karma as going from 4 - 5 and not from 3 - 4.
Incorrect.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 21 2009, 06:12 PM)
Can't remember, but does not Bioware (and Geneware?) have the same drawback... bioware provided an Inherent bonus tot he stat, and you raise it at the level of the new stat (so the example of Cerebral Booster would then be correct)... I am pretty sure that that is how it was in previous editions for Bioware...
Keep the Faith
Keep the Faith
Again, Incorrect.
Augmentation such as Cerebral Boosters increases the attribute directly, not provide a Dice Pool Modifier. Muscle Augmentation increases your Strength attribute, & thus all derived attributes (and base weight capacity). Muscle Toner increases your Agility attribute, & thus applies before splitting your dice pool for two-weapon fighting (if it was a Dice Pool Modifier, it would apply separately to each split pool).
Despite being a direct increase to the attribute in question, you never calculate the cost of advancement using the augmented value (single exception being the fucking retarded Increase Attribute Adept power). All advancement Karma costs are determined using the base attribute value.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 21 2009, 09:22 PM)
Incorrect.
Augmentation such as Cerebral Boosters increases the attribute directly, not provide a Dice Pool Modifier. Muscle Augmentation increases your Strength attribute, & thus all derived attributes (and base weight capacity). Muscle Toner increases your Agility attribute, & thus applies before splitting your dice pool for two-weapon fighting (if it was a Dice Pool Modifier, it would apply separately to each split pool).
Despite being a direct increase to the attribute in question, you never calculate the cost of advancement using the augmented value (single exception being the fucking retarded Increase Attribute Adept power). All advancement Karma costs are determined using the base attribute value.
Augmentation such as Cerebral Boosters increases the attribute directly, not provide a Dice Pool Modifier. Muscle Augmentation increases your Strength attribute, & thus all derived attributes (and base weight capacity). Muscle Toner increases your Agility attribute, & thus applies before splitting your dice pool for two-weapon fighting (if it was a Dice Pool Modifier, it would apply separately to each split pool).
Despite being a direct increase to the attribute in question, you never calculate the cost of advancement using the augmented value (single exception being the fucking retarded Increase Attribute Adept power). All advancement Karma costs are determined using the base attribute value.
Yes in SR4 that is certainly true...
But did you not, either in SR2 or SR3, purchase your improved natural stat after the calculated Bioware upgrade? For some reason I seem to remember somethign about that... of COurse, I have not played 2nd or 3rd editions in a great many years... especially since my previous editions were stolen out of my car 6 years ago...
Keep the Faith
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