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Hagga
Geneware doesn't come in grades. Bioware does. Bioware can be geneware, unless I've grievously misunderstood the contents of our copy of augmentation. CAn you get graded bioware-as-geneware? SO instead of costing you .5 essence for that digestive expansion, you can have it hard coded into your genome as alphaware and have it cost a mere .45 essence instead?
Stahlseele
Why would you even do that?
Is the 0,05 Essence drop really worth the much higer nuyen cost?
Why not take the 0,5 essence ware, make it alpha, pay only slightly more and save a complete 0,1 Essence?
Or am i missing something here?
Hagga
You're not. It was an example and I was curious, since the book was unclear on the matter.
Stahlseele
Ah, okay.
Hrm, since you can get certain metagenetic qualities as geneware too, i don't see anything saying it won't work.
Especially with something like your digestive expansion example. I know people today that can eat and eat and eat and not gain a single pound.
And it seems to run in the family. If THAT's not geneware, i don't know what is O.o
Hagga
I'd imagine it's just a lot of exercise. The question is mainly because it seems useless if you can't get geneware in grades. Anyone who can afford geneware would just get the graded bioware for the lesser cost. I don't know why they'd get the geneware in the first place, unless they were biopurist nutcases or worried about implant complications or wanted to pass it on to their children or wanted something that'd interact well with Leonization, etc.
Karoline
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 22 2009, 09:31 AM) *
Ah, okay.
Hrm, since you can get certain metagenetic qualities as geneware too, i don't see anything saying it won't work.
Especially with something like your digestive expansion example. I know people today that can eat and eat and eat and not gain a single pound.
And it seems to run in the family. If THAT's not geneware, i don't know what is O.o


Well, that isn't what digestive expansion is at all... nyahnyah.gif

You can get bioware as geneware? I must have read that supplement through several times and yet I've somehow missed that.

Can I get a page number on that so I can look it up quickly when I have access to my books later.
Hagga
Can't locate it, although there's a small mention on 93 of Augmentation for animal features alone. I'll have a closer look later.
Stahlseele
That's not in there at all, that's why you missed it.
But i distinctively remember there being a bit about being able to get Metagenetic Qualities as Gen-Ware or Bioware, so i don't really see why you should not be able to get bioware as geneware, if you are ready to pay the price.
I can't find anything about gene-ware-grades at all.
I guess if you have it in Gene-Ware, it's pretty much Delta-Stuff.
Because, let's face it, 0,05 Essence saved are generally usually not worth the hassle.
McCummhail
QUOTE (Augmentation, p.93)
Animal Features: Animal features can include any phenotypic
modification drawn from normal animal lifeforms. These might
include shaggy lion manes, rabbit’s ears, quills instead of hair, tails,
claws, and other animal characteristics. Note that such physical alterations
do not automatically imbue the subject with animal-like
senses or abilities, remaining primarily cosmetic. Full functionality
requires much more profound metabolic alterations. Most of
the functional changes available through biotech (p. 61) are also
possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and
nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months).
This paragraph is a pandora's box that caused a bit of grumbling when the book first came out.
And while I am quoting for truth,
QUOTE (Augmentation, p.87)
Geneware, Essence, and Grades
Geneware, the colloquial term for metahuman gene therapy,
is rarely tailored to a specific individual. Individual vectors are
corrected and adjusted to facilitate integration. Change on the
genetic level is so complex that it cannot take factors that arise
from the unique genetic background of a recipient into account.
Side effects from cross-reactions with other genes are normally
corrected during the treatment. Because of this, geneware does
not come in grades like cyberware or bioware.

All bonuses from geneware treatments are subject to a
character’s relevant maximum augmented ratings.
Underlining added for convenience.

Surge and Metagenics came out after Augmentation so you will not find any concrete info there.
Karoline
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 22 2009, 11:06 AM) *
But i distinctively remember there being a bit about being able to get Metagenetic Qualities as Gen-Ware or Bioware, so i don't really see why you should not be able to get bioware as geneware, if you are ready to pay the price.


Isn't that like saying "Because I can get extra IP from Bioware, and I can get extra IP from cyberware, I can get any bioware as cyberware."?

I'll have to look over it, shouldn't be too much longer till I can get at my books.
McCummhail
QUOTE (Runners Companion, p.110)
Non-magical metagenetic qualities that do not have a bioware
or cyberware equivalent may be introduced into the game
via Transgenic Alteration geneware (p. 92, Augmentation) at
the gamemaster’s discretion. Since these would be rare and new
transgenic treatments, they would cost at least 0.1 Essence and an
absolute BP value x 25,000 nuyen cost. Bonuses from metagenetic
qualities that mimic certain cyber or bio-implants or vice versa are
never cumulative.
I knew it was in there somewhere!
Brought to you by Zero Point and Search-fu.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 22 2009, 05:35 PM) *
Isn't that like saying "Because I can get extra IP from Bioware, and I can get extra IP from cyberware, I can get any bioware as cyberware."?

I'll have to look over it, shouldn't be too much longer till I can get at my books.

Actually, more or less, yes.
They can basically build a complete human using cybertech in the fluff from SR.
So technically, everything available as bioware SHOULD also be available as cyber.
But because it'd be too much redundancy, it got left out i think.
Karoline
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 22 2009, 12:12 PM) *
Actually, more or less, yes.
They can basically build a complete human using cybertech in the fluff from SR.
So technically, everything available as bioware SHOULD also be available as cyber.
But because it'd be too much redundancy, it got left out i think.


But it really isn't true, because the same logic says that anything that is avalable as cyberware should be available as bioware. I -really- want to see a sammy running around with a bioware data jack, bioarms with intigrated bioguns and spinning bioblades (No really, we'd be crossing some really awesome line). I also want a bioware commlink... a commlink made entirely of living tissue.. fun stuff.

Anyway, now to the geneware=bioware part brought up on p93

...crud, I totally had a good argument and then I countered myself...

Yes, it looks as though you can get any bioware as geneware, but... with no net difference except that it takes way longer to get, and you can no longer get it in grades or have it removed.

I don't know where people were coming up with a .5 to .45 comparison on bioware vs geneware though.

Edit: Because the first two posters both talk about alphaware, with one saying .5 to .45, and the other saying .5 to .4 and there is something about it being geneware making some kind of difference (Which the text states it doesn't)
Stahlseele
Bioarms? Cloned Arms.
Bio-Comlink?
Technomancer-Brain.
Maybe not spinning, but Blades make from Bone and Horns, maybe Teeth-Stuff in other Form, why not?
Bioware Datajack, complicated, but i guess it depends on wether or not you think skinlink, which uses the skins electrical field for data transmission would count as bioware.

Geneware is generally more expansive than Bioware. And it SHOULD be much harder to spot than Bioware still.
Karoline
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 22 2009, 01:10 PM) *
Bioarms? Cloned Arms.
Bio-Comlink?
Technomancer-Brain.
Maybe not spinning, but Blades make from Bone and Horns, maybe Teeth-Stuff in other Form, why not?
Bioware Datajack, complicated, but i guess it depends on wether or not you think skinlink, which uses the skins electrical field for data transmission would count as bioware.

Geneware is generally more expansive than Bioware. And it SHOULD be much harder to spot than Bioware still.


I didn't think technomancer brains were cloanable and then transplantable into my own brain (And growable with the mental stats I want too!)

Yeah, I knew bioarms wasn't really going to be much on its own, but I mean bioarms with capacity to put in organic flashlights, organic laser sights, organic cameras, organic guns, organic hydraulics, etc etc etc.

I'm also not sure why geneware would be harder to spot than bioware. If you have a superthyroid gland, it doesn't really matter much if it got there because someone put it there or your own body grew it. Same for orthoskin, doesn't matter if it was grown on me via biotech or my body grew it because of gene modifications, it is still orthoskin and still just as visible.

While bioware and cyberware do often overlap, there are also things that make each of them distinct, areas that they don't overlap.

Still don't know where the numbers .45 and .4 came from in relation to .5 with some kind of difference being based on geneware.
Stahlseele
Bioware is NOT grown in your body!
It's grown artificially in Vats. From your DNA and then changed.
And THEN it is implanted into your original Body!

GENEWARE on the other Hand? Now THIS stuff is grown inside your body.
Your genetic Code is changed and changes the body accordingly.
It's about as natural as you can get, without being a changeling.
Karoline
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 22 2009, 01:34 PM) *
Bioware is NOT grown in your body!
It's grown artificially in Vats. From your DNA and then changed.
And THEN it is implanted into your original Body!

GENEWARE on the other Hand? Now THIS stuff is grown inside your body.
Your genetic Code is changed and changes the body accordingly.
It's about as natural as you can get, without being a changeling.


Yeah, I know... I never said bioware was grown in your body. I said that bioware converted to geneware was grown in your body. And like I said, it doesn't matter how that orthoskin got there, it is still there, and it is still noticeable.
Stahlseele
Yeah, the external stuff is ALLWAYS noticeable. Doesn't matter how you get it.
Karoline
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 22 2009, 01:50 PM) *
Yeah, the external stuff is ALLWAYS noticeable. Doesn't matter how you get it.


So why should geneware be harder to spot than bioware? If it is outside, it is easy to see reguardless, and if it is inside it is impossible to see reguardless. Any method that would detect a bioware implant would be just as likely to detect that you have some weird organs in you.
Stahlseele
Well, technically, X-Rays could still show the Weird organs.
Stuff like the Suprathoid Gland for example. Which is a second, boosted Gland which is put on top of your existing one not unlike a Turboloader in a Car-Motor, if i understand that correctly.
Geneware would only show a slightly enlarged but otherwise perfectly normal Gland.
But as it right now is, why would anybody get Gen-Stuff, aside for things they can't get any other way?
Karoline
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 22 2009, 02:04 PM) *
Well, technically, X-Rays could still show the Weird organs.
Stuff like the Suprathoid Gland for example. Which is a second, boosted Gland which is put on top of your existing one not unlike a Turboloader in a Car-Motor, if i understand that correctly.
Geneware would only show a slightly enlarged but otherwise perfectly normal Gland.
But as it right now is, why would anybody get Gen-Stuff, aside for things they can't get any other way?


Actually, you'd need a second organ to perform the job of the suprathyroid gland, even if it was geneware. It wouldn't simply make the original organ a bit larger. At best it would double the size of the original organ, which would look every bit as weird as having the second organ.

I agree though, there isn't any real reason to get bioware as geneware, because it offers no advantages and several drawbacks (Which I already said)
McCummhail
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 22 2009, 02:09 PM) *
I agree though, there isn't any real reason to get bioware as geneware, because it offers no advantages and several drawbacks (Which I already said)
The only reason to get bioware as geneware is to exploit a weakness in the system using munchkinism.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (McCummhail @ Sep 22 2009, 08:45 PM) *
The only reason to get bioware as geneware is to exploit a weakness in the system using munchkinism.

Query: reson for statement?
McCummhail
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 22 2009, 02:47 PM) *
Query: reson for statement?
This thread covers it fairly thoroughly.
The basic trick is in combining the Genetic Heritage positive quality with which gives you 1 free gene-ware with the clause that allows for Bio-ware as Gene-ware to get 1 free piece of Bioware (alternately you can get a metagenic trait for free).

Hagga
Never mind, the entire thread is null and void. I can't find the damn bit that was basically the page 93 quote over again. I'm sure it was there, but it escapes me so I can only assume it doesn't exist and I've finally crossed the line from sleep deprived to true madness. Or, you know, I'm seeing things.
Stahlseele
Reread chapter tomorrow, come back and ask new question.
Karoline
QUOTE (Hagga @ Sep 22 2009, 06:30 PM) *
Never mind, the entire thread is null and void. I can't find the damn bit that was basically the page 93 quote over again. I'm sure it was there, but it escapes me so I can only assume it doesn't exist and I've finally crossed the line from sleep deprived to true madness. Or, you know, I'm seeing things.


It is under 'animal features'

As for muchkinism... Yeah, I guess you could get the free geneware + 20% discount quality, and even combine it with the other 20% discount at char creation for geneware and get a (almost) half price discount on all starting bioware by getting it as geneware. It would however be impossible to get rid of or upgrade (Or at least take several months) so it does have very distinct disadvantages.

I could also see GMs adding 5-10 points to the availability to get any bioware as geneware because it is simply less common.
Stahlseele
Furthermore, Starting with Geneware being Genecrafted would make the Chracter how young exactly?
Karoline
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 22 2009, 07:28 PM) *
Furthermore, Starting with Geneware being Genecrafted would make the Chracter how young exactly?


QUOTE
Though genetweaking isn’t yet widespread, the technology to
successfully modify a metahuman genome has been around for well
over three decades.


Under thirty? I think most characters can handle that.
Stahlseele
No, it means his PARENTS have to be at least 30 Years old, right?
Or am i thinking of something else, not the heridetary thing stuff?
ZeroPoint
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 22 2009, 08:35 PM) *
Under thirty? I think most characters can handle that.


Except that according to the quote that McCummhail already snagged from me in the aforementioned thread...underline added for emphasis

QUOTE
Non-magical metagenetic qualities that do not have a bioware
or cyberware equivalent may be introduced into the game
via Transgenic Alteration geneware (p. 92, Augmentation) at
the gamemaster€™s discretion. Since these would be rare and new
transgenic treatments
, they would cost at least 0.1 Essence and an
absolute BP value x 25,000 nuyen cost. Bonuses from metagenetic
qualities that mimic certain cyber or bio-implants or vice versa are
never cumulative.


so while transgenic treatments have been around for a while, this specific application of it hasn't. The same could likely be said for bioware to geneware.
Karoline
QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Sep 23 2009, 11:36 AM) *
Except that according to the quote that McCummhail already snagged from me in the aforementioned thread...underline added for emphasis



so while transgenic treatments have been around for a while, this specific application of it hasn't. The same could likely be said for bioware to geneware.


Very true, so a good way to block people trying to be all munchkiny with it because even though it exists now as bioware, it didn't back when you were born (And of course it is hard to explain your parents spending a fortune on having you genetically perfected for combat)
Twilights_Herald
To be honest, I've actually created a character around this concept, as a one-off 'genetic experiment.' The story was kind of out there, but that was the kind of game being run at the time.

Mechanically, we didn't treat it any differently. The costs/BI were as per Standard bioware (this was an SR3 game), simply because the original technology was so far out there that it had a higher impact than it would if the capabilities added had just been done via implantation of Cultured bioware. If this is for concept, that's really all that needs to be said. If you're looking to twink, well...then there's a problem.
McCummhail
You might also note that almost every mention of these is "at the gamemaster's discretion"
so fancy rule interpretations arent needed to deny munchkinism.
'No" should suffice.

I like to know the holes and exploits in the game before they become an issue,
but until we approach Guyver levels of gene tech, I am not that worried either way.
Stahlseele
Well, there ARE Genetic Infusions . .
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 22 2009, 06:53 PM) *
I also want a bioware commlink... a commlink made entirely of living tissue.. fun stuff.

Just ask Dr. Halberstam.
McCummhail
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 23 2009, 05:04 PM) *
Well, there ARE Genetic Infusions . .
That gave me a great idea for a run!
Corp experiments with Genetic Infusions and ghouls goes terribly wrong resulting in demonic seeming monsters. Runners are sent to recover "samples and data" from a 'retired experiment'.
Or possibly hired as clean-up.
Hilarity ensues!
Stahlseele
Just remember that they will probably get a completely different genetic infusion that becomes permanent with 90% probability.
McCummhail
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 25 2009, 11:12 AM) *
Just remember that they will probably get a completely different genetic infusion that becomes permanent with 90% probability.
Oh, but of course!
I would also draw the line at the standard Zoanoid
and skip on organic lasers and the like... for now!

The entire thing could also turn into a scenario
to extract the 'poor misguided scientists',
who turn out to be infected with
a modified strain of Krieger!

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