So I was thinking...
Maybe it's me, but military/ex-military backgrounds seem very common for certain kinds of campaigns.
Now, that's not a bad thing. Sometimes they make sense.
But I'm a very details-focused GM. I try to prevent errors like someone claiming military experience but missing critical military skills.
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So, after talking with MusicMan last night and then sleeping, I came up with an idea.
Skill sets to represent military training.
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Now here's my problem: I know how I want to divide things up, but no idea what skills to put in each "set".
Thus I ask for help. If this were to be suitably developed, I'd be happy to consider submitting it to the Dumpshock magazine.
For simplicity, I'm considering SR4, canon 2072. For additional simplicity, I'm going to consider national militaries only.
The idea is that if a character were -just- coming out of chargen after these points, what skills would they have?
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How I'm dividing things:
First, by country. Every country runs their military training differently. I see the UCAS and CAS being so alike as to make separating them not worth it for our purposes, but otherwise that holds.
Next, by service: Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, whatever. Every service tends to do things differently too.
Finally: Officer or Enlisted. Officers get different training than enlisted folks.
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Absolutely common stuff:
To join the military, you must have the SINner (standard) quality, usually of the nation whose forces you're joining.
You generally may not have physical flaws such as reduced sense, or mental disorders. They may be gained in service, but you aren't likely to be allowed to join with them.
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Now onto the fun stuff:
I'll list a setting, you lay out attribute/skill stuff you think would be gained.
UCAS/CAS, Army, Enlisted Basic Combat Training
UCAS/CAS, Army, Enlisted Specialty Schools
UCAS/CAS, Navy, Enlisted Recruit Training
UCAS/CAS, Navy, Enlisted Specialty Schools
Repeat for Marine Corps and Air Force.
UCAS/CAS, Army, Officer training (ROTC)
UCAS/CAS, Army, Officer training (Service Academy)
UCAS/CAS, Army, Officer training (OCS)
UCAS/CAS, Navy, Officer training (ROTC)
UCAS/CAS, Navy, Officer training (Service Academy)
UCAS/CAS, Navy, Officer training (OCS)
Repeat for Marine Corps and Air Force.
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Things I have absolutely no idea how to handle:
Magic-types. Spellslingers and physads. Would they even go through the same training as everybody else? Would they all be officers?
Hackers and technomancers. Again, the same questions arise as with magic-types, especially for TMs.
Full Version: Military Core Curriculum
A couple of skills that may not be immediately obvious for a military trained character, but should be:
Running ( no brainer)
Etiquette (Military specialization)
Leadership (basic leadership skills, doesn't have to be in regards to tactics)
Computers ( very basic, btu a lot of training is done on them)
Swimming (It's surprising how many people join the Navy that can't swim)
Survival (especially if the character was a pilot)
Navigation (especially Army)
Unarmed Combat (Depends on branch. Navy teaches very little unless your job specifically includes that)
First Aid (spec combat wounds)
Weapons skills and general combat-ness beyond really depends on what they did, where they did it, who they did it for, and how long they were doing it. But there's a few other ideas to round it out a bit more. That's not including knowledge skills of course. But for a beginning character, basic training in these is only going to put their skill at a Rating 1 unless it's something they use regularly.
Running ( no brainer)
Etiquette (Military specialization)
Leadership (basic leadership skills, doesn't have to be in regards to tactics)
Computers ( very basic, btu a lot of training is done on them)
Swimming (It's surprising how many people join the Navy that can't swim)
Survival (especially if the character was a pilot)
Navigation (especially Army)
Unarmed Combat (Depends on branch. Navy teaches very little unless your job specifically includes that)
First Aid (spec combat wounds)
Weapons skills and general combat-ness beyond really depends on what they did, where they did it, who they did it for, and how long they were doing it. But there's a few other ideas to round it out a bit more. That's not including knowledge skills of course. But for a beginning character, basic training in these is only going to put their skill at a Rating 1 unless it's something they use regularly.
And all this training would add up to a 1 or a 2. Though, specialty would indicate what skills get a 3.
Example:
Infantryman (basic Pvt fresh from boot camp, trained to western standards)
Running 1
Ettiqutte 1 (3 military)
Computers 1
Swimming 1
Survival 1
Infiltration 2
Dodge 2
Navigation 2
Close combat skill group 2
Fire arms skill group 3
Heavy weapons 2
Gunnery 2
Thrown weapons 1
First aid 1
Example:
Infantryman (basic Pvt fresh from boot camp, trained to western standards)
Running 1
Ettiqutte 1 (3 military)
Computers 1
Swimming 1
Survival 1
Infiltration 2
Dodge 2
Navigation 2
Close combat skill group 2
Fire arms skill group 3
Heavy weapons 2
Gunnery 2
Thrown weapons 1
First aid 1
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Sep 22 2009, 11:40 AM) 
Example:
Infantryman (basic Pvt fresh from boot camp, trained to western standards)
Close combat skill group 2
Fire arms skill group 3
Infantryman (basic Pvt fresh from boot camp, trained to western standards)
Close combat skill group 2
Fire arms skill group 3
Nope.
Unarmed: 2
Blade: 2
Pistols: 2
Automatics: 3
No weapon class from the longarms group would be utilized by a grunt.
No blunt style weapon would be utilized by a military personal outside of MPs.
Agreed. Master-at-Arms (Navy MP) are trained specifically with shot guns and batons. Other ranks within the Navy are not, unless they get training for security as a side duty. That's just the Navy side however. Not a lot of shadowrun players go "I wanna be ex-Navy!, unless you're talking SEALS. Honestly, a beginning character doesn't have enough BP to play a SEAL, so just move on.
The Navy was included mostly for completeness - but I think it should still be covered.
Note that I never even thought of including all 200+ career paths the Army alone offers - but this all developed when I noticed someone got through an entire enlistment without even 1 point in a firearms skill, and the thought came to me of "so what the heck does BCT or boot camp teach by 2072 anyway?" Which naturally lead into thoughts about officer training, as well.
The more I think about it, the more I'd love to turn this into an article, but the more I also realize I have no idea about what someone who's gotten through basic training, even, would know, let alone a whole tour.
Note that I never even thought of including all 200+ career paths the Army alone offers - but this all developed when I noticed someone got through an entire enlistment without even 1 point in a firearms skill, and the thought came to me of "so what the heck does BCT or boot camp teach by 2072 anyway?" Which naturally lead into thoughts about officer training, as well.
The more I think about it, the more I'd love to turn this into an article, but the more I also realize I have no idea about what someone who's gotten through basic training, even, would know, let alone a whole tour.
I know we've got plenty of enlisted around here, in a number of branches. Not sure about officers though..
I tried to stat this out back in SR3, and came up with this:
These numbers would have to be adjusted for the transition from SR3 to SR4, which I think means reducing skills by a third and knocking about a point off the attributes.
[ Spoiler ]
These numbers would have to be adjusted for the transition from SR3 to SR4, which I think means reducing skills by a third and knocking about a point off the attributes.
QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Sep 22 2009, 12:05 PM)
Agreed. Master-at-Arms (Navy MP) are trained specifically with shot guns and batons. Other ranks within the Navy are not, unless they get training for security as a side duty. That's just the Navy side however. Not a lot of shadowrun players go "I wanna be ex-Navy!, unless you're talking SEALS. Honestly, a beginning character doesn't have enough BP to play a SEAL, so just move on.
Yeah, the biggest problem with spec-ops is that they would be 3 minimum in most of their stats, and would have multiple 5s easily. Skill wise they're not as big of a problem.
Body: 4
Strength: 4
Agility: 5
Reaction: 5
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4-5
Logic: 4
Willpower: 4
Edge: 4+
280 BP
If you want to play a spec-ops, the best way is to allow entropy to have eaten away at his stats/skills. Give a reason for him to be out of service for awhile and not having been using his skills regularly. That or play a 600BP setting so you get 300BP for attributes, and 75 BP for resources.
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Sep 22 2009, 11:40 AM)
And all this training would add up to a 1 or a 2. Though, specialty would indicate what skills get a 3.
Example:
Infantryman (basic Pvt fresh from boot camp, trained to western standards)
Running 1
Ettiqutte 1 (3 military)
Computers 1
Swimming 1
Survival 1
Infiltration 2
Dodge 2
Navigation 2
Close combat skill group 2
Fire arms skill group 3
Heavy weapons 2
Gunnery 2
Thrown weapons 1
First aid 1
Example:
Infantryman (basic Pvt fresh from boot camp, trained to western standards)
Running 1
Ettiqutte 1 (3 military)
Computers 1
Swimming 1
Survival 1
Infiltration 2
Dodge 2
Navigation 2
Close combat skill group 2
Fire arms skill group 3
Heavy weapons 2
Gunnery 2
Thrown weapons 1
First aid 1
Going to sound like I'm being a pisser as I'm just going to counter these as I go down the list, but it is just easier to agree/disagree that way.
Running 1 Should likely have a (long distance) spec, because that is mostly going to be long marches and jogs and exceedingly short sprints, not normal running.
Ettiqutte 1 (3 military) Totally
Computers 1 Really? Soldiers get special computer training now-a-days? Wow how things have changed since a few months ago when my friend joined.
Swimming 1 Don't really know about this, I don't think they exactly have swimming classes or anything. Remember that a 0 skill doesn't mean you can't do it, it just means you lack extensive training in it.
Survival 1 Yeah, they tend to be taught how to put up a tent and open their rat-packs (The first of which is harder to do properly than it seems, and the second of which involves actually having to eat the pack
)Infiltration 2 I don't think learning to crawl in the dirt would cover to 2.. though certainly it is something, so 1 would make some sense.
Dodge 2 Totally
Navigation 2 I'm fairly sure that infantry are taught to do what they are told, not to spark up debate to try and convince their CEO to only jog 20 miles this morning.
Close combat skill group 2 I wasn't aware that infantry got extensive close combat training (it meele)... Now maybe they learn to beat someone with their gun, but I would think that about covers it.
Fire arms skill group 3 Longarms seem like an unlikely skill for most infantry, and I'd imagine that their skill with an AK or whatever they are issued would be much higher than pistol... maybe pistol 2 and Automatics (Assault rifles) 3(5)
Heavy weapons 2 I'm fairly sure that HMG and Rocket troops are separate from standard infantry.
Gunnery 2 Similar to heavy weapons, most infantry learn to fight on their own feet, not on vehicles (Thus infantry and not... jeeps I guess?)
Thrown weapons 1 I'd think this would be a bit higher, as chucking a grenade properly is important (and fun!)
First aid 1 Are they really taught any more first aid than "Bind the crud out of it"?
Sorry it seems I'm being so controversial. I think what we'd really need to do this would be someone who is currently in the military, either currently going through this training, or someone who is generally in charge of training raw recruits. Most other things are just going to be conjecture and guesswork.
I think any ex-mil character should get First Aid of at least 1, at least the UCAS types. Remember, UCAS absorbed Canada and the CF does things a little differently, like requiring all recruits to pass a St John's Ambulance Emergency First Aid course. While it's true that the union of the US and Canada resulted in almost nothing of Canada coming through, who says that some bit and bobs wouldn't?
Remembering back:
TA - Phase 1.
1. In-unit foundation scheme - TAFS
Often timetabled over 4 weekends with a pass off parade at the end.
Aims: To induct recruits in to the TA and provide them with the skills and knowledge to prepare them to undertake CMS® TA Part 2 training.
Training Objectives
1: Carry out basic fieldcraft skills in the field
2: Demonstrate the physical Requirements of a TA soldier - BPFA
3: Demonstrate basic foot drill in quick time
4: Demonstrate basic military knowledge about the army
5: Explain the army system of pay related to matters as they affect TA recruits
6: Demonstrate security awareness
7: Describe military law
2. CMS® TA (Part 2)
Training Objectives
1: Demonstrate skill at arms - WHT, Grouping and Zeroing
2: Carry out basic fieldcraft skills in the field
3: Demonstrate physical requirements of a TA soldier - BPFA, Endurance training, build up and completion of TA CFT
4: Demonstrate the ability to map read
5: Apply aims of first aid
6: Carry out individual protective measures to survive NBC attack
7: Demonstrate basic foot drill in quick time without arms
3. CMS® TA (Part 3)
1: Demonstrate skill at arms - APWT ITD(1) Non Inf
2: Demonstrate the ability to map read
3: Demonstrate basic foot drill in quick time - with arms
4: Apply aims of first aid - BCDT ITD(3)
5: Carry out individual protective measures to survive NBC attack - ITD(4)
6: Attempt the Military Swimming Test
7: Display an understanding of religious faith and military virtues - ITD(11)
COURSE STANDARD
STUDENTS MUST PASS THE SUMMATIVE TESTS DURING THEIR RECRUIT TRAINING TO ACHIEVE THE MINIMUM COURSE STANDARD.
Individual Training Directives Army (ITD(A)). On successful completion of Phase 1 TA Training TA recruits will have passed the following ITD(A)s.
a. TAFS:
(1) ITD(A) 6 The Law of Armed Conflict.
(2) ITD(A) 7 Security Training.
(3) ITD(A) 10 Equal Opportunities.
b. TA Training Gap:
(1) ITD(A) 1 Personal Weapon Training.
(2) ITD(A) 2 Fit to Fight.
(3) ITD (A) 3 First Aid
(4) ITD (A) 4 NBC
(5) ITD(A) 11 Moral Understanding.
Once you've completed your Phase 1 Training and taken some well-earned leave, it's time to join your chosen regiment or corps. At this point you begin specific training for your chosen Army career.
Soldiers
Infantry
If you join the infantry you'll complete another 14 weeks of training, similar to Phase 1. This second phase of training at Catterick in North Yorkshire, will take your infantry skills to a much higher level and provide you with essential preparation for your first posting.
All other army roles
If you join another part of the Army your specialist training begins now. This could last a matter of months if you serve in one of the Combat units such as the Army Air Corps, the Royal Armoured Corps and the Royal Artillery. Or it could last up to two years if you join a trade-based profession like the Royal Engineers to do an apprenticeship.
After phase 2
Following Phase 2 training it will be time for your first posting with your unit. This is when you use all your training for real. If your unit is not on operations at that time, you'll train with your unit. This will consist of both individual and group training, geared towards your unit's role in the Army.
Officers
The training at Sandhurst is only the first step on your journey to becoming a genuine leader. When new officers leave Sandhurst, specialist training in preparation for joining your chosen regiment or corps begins.
All young officers attend courses to learn the skills of their particular arm or service in preparation for their first command of a troop or platoon. These are designed to give you the confidence to command your soldiers and to improve your problem solving, interpersonal and management skills. Further education is given as appropriate to meet individual needs in future postings.
TA - Phase 1.
1. In-unit foundation scheme - TAFS
Often timetabled over 4 weekends with a pass off parade at the end.
Aims: To induct recruits in to the TA and provide them with the skills and knowledge to prepare them to undertake CMS® TA Part 2 training.
Training Objectives
1: Carry out basic fieldcraft skills in the field
2: Demonstrate the physical Requirements of a TA soldier - BPFA
3: Demonstrate basic foot drill in quick time
4: Demonstrate basic military knowledge about the army
5: Explain the army system of pay related to matters as they affect TA recruits
6: Demonstrate security awareness
7: Describe military law
2. CMS® TA (Part 2)
Training Objectives
1: Demonstrate skill at arms - WHT, Grouping and Zeroing
2: Carry out basic fieldcraft skills in the field
3: Demonstrate physical requirements of a TA soldier - BPFA, Endurance training, build up and completion of TA CFT
4: Demonstrate the ability to map read
5: Apply aims of first aid
6: Carry out individual protective measures to survive NBC attack
7: Demonstrate basic foot drill in quick time without arms
3. CMS® TA (Part 3)
1: Demonstrate skill at arms - APWT ITD(1) Non Inf
2: Demonstrate the ability to map read
3: Demonstrate basic foot drill in quick time - with arms
4: Apply aims of first aid - BCDT ITD(3)
5: Carry out individual protective measures to survive NBC attack - ITD(4)
6: Attempt the Military Swimming Test
7: Display an understanding of religious faith and military virtues - ITD(11)
COURSE STANDARD
STUDENTS MUST PASS THE SUMMATIVE TESTS DURING THEIR RECRUIT TRAINING TO ACHIEVE THE MINIMUM COURSE STANDARD.
Individual Training Directives Army (ITD(A)). On successful completion of Phase 1 TA Training TA recruits will have passed the following ITD(A)s.
a. TAFS:
(1) ITD(A) 6 The Law of Armed Conflict.
(2) ITD(A) 7 Security Training.
(3) ITD(A) 10 Equal Opportunities.
b. TA Training Gap:
(1) ITD(A) 1 Personal Weapon Training.
(2) ITD(A) 2 Fit to Fight.
(3) ITD (A) 3 First Aid
(4) ITD (A) 4 NBC
(5) ITD(A) 11 Moral Understanding.
Once you've completed your Phase 1 Training and taken some well-earned leave, it's time to join your chosen regiment or corps. At this point you begin specific training for your chosen Army career.
Soldiers
Infantry
If you join the infantry you'll complete another 14 weeks of training, similar to Phase 1. This second phase of training at Catterick in North Yorkshire, will take your infantry skills to a much higher level and provide you with essential preparation for your first posting.
All other army roles
If you join another part of the Army your specialist training begins now. This could last a matter of months if you serve in one of the Combat units such as the Army Air Corps, the Royal Armoured Corps and the Royal Artillery. Or it could last up to two years if you join a trade-based profession like the Royal Engineers to do an apprenticeship.
After phase 2
Following Phase 2 training it will be time for your first posting with your unit. This is when you use all your training for real. If your unit is not on operations at that time, you'll train with your unit. This will consist of both individual and group training, geared towards your unit's role in the Army.
Officers
The training at Sandhurst is only the first step on your journey to becoming a genuine leader. When new officers leave Sandhurst, specialist training in preparation for joining your chosen regiment or corps begins.
All young officers attend courses to learn the skills of their particular arm or service in preparation for their first command of a troop or platoon. These are designed to give you the confidence to command your soldiers and to improve your problem solving, interpersonal and management skills. Further education is given as appropriate to meet individual needs in future postings.
*waits for the inevitable Kerenshara-Input*
QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Sep 22 2009, 01:05 PM)
Agreed. Master-at-Arms (Navy MP) are trained specifically with shot guns and batons. Other ranks within the Navy are not, unless they get training for security as a side duty. That's just the Navy side however. Not a lot of shadowrun players go "I wanna be ex-Navy!, unless you're talking SEALS. Honestly, a beginning character doesn't have enough BP to play a SEAL, so just move on.
Yeah, that's what I've been telling my friends that want to play as ex-<insert special forces here>. You can't play as one with a starting runner. Maybe with karma-gen, I don't know, never used it. But with 400 BP? Not gonna happen.
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Sep 22 2009, 03:00 PM)
Yeah, that's what I've been telling my friends that want to play as ex-<insert special forces here>. You can't play as one with a starting runner. Maybe with karma-gen, I don't know, never used it. But with 400 BP? Not gonna happen.
Sure you can, maintain mental stats and your character has been out for 10 years and didn't bother to stay fit. Degrade his physical stats appropriately. Of course that defeats the purpose that most plays have for a spec-ops which is usually physical oriented.
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 22 2009, 12:17 PM)
Close combat skill group 2 I wasn't aware that infantry got extensive close combat training (it meele)... Now maybe they learn to beat someone with their gun, but I would think that about covers it.
RBFT
GFT
Pugil Sticks
Actually, the US Army and US Marine Corps have spent a huge amount of time overhauling their hand to hand combat training programs in recent years. I can't say for sure how good their combatives programs are, but everything I've seen and heard indicates that it has definitely been made a priority. Sergeant Zim would be proud.
Depends on what kind of character you want to play. How many years have they been in service, what are the standards set. For instance getting into the regular infantry in the United States demands being in good physical shape. Getting into the infantry in Canada you have to be in excellent physical shape. Getting into the TA in Britain demands not being able to drop a pen and the UOTC about knowing which hand to use when fondling the RSMs wife discreetly or how to blow the RSM behind the NAAFI. Different branches and regiments also set different demands on its recruits.
There are two types of career soldier in any army. The generalist and the specialist. The specialist focuses on a specific area of expertise in that area of specialisation. A specialist may know everything about field fortifications from 1939-now, a generalist about how they should be employed in the field.
A special forces soldier has specialist skills. These skills may involve knowing a foreign language particular to the region, expertise in exotic squad level equipment, expertise in living in a region, advanced training in a specialist skill set such as field craft, and extended experience in training that specific skill set.
Most soldiers will never see a special forces soldier and most of their expertise is nto very sexy, such as a specialisation in reading aerial reconnoissance pictures, military logistics, how to cook for 500 on a budget, construction/deconstruction.
There are two types of career soldier in any army. The generalist and the specialist. The specialist focuses on a specific area of expertise in that area of specialisation. A specialist may know everything about field fortifications from 1939-now, a generalist about how they should be employed in the field.
A special forces soldier has specialist skills. These skills may involve knowing a foreign language particular to the region, expertise in exotic squad level equipment, expertise in living in a region, advanced training in a specialist skill set such as field craft, and extended experience in training that specific skill set.
Most soldiers will never see a special forces soldier and most of their expertise is nto very sexy, such as a specialisation in reading aerial reconnoissance pictures, military logistics, how to cook for 500 on a budget, construction/deconstruction.
Wow. Yall think infantry kids know a lot. Right out of basic training, I think you would have:
Minimum physical attributes and willpower of 3, minimum reaction of 2.
Skills:
Close combat group 1
Athletics group 1
Firearms Skill group 1
Outdoors group 1
Automatics (broken out) 2 (Assault rifles)
Heavy weapons 1*
Pilot ground vehicle 1
Armorer (firearms) 1
First Aid (combat wounds) 1*
Thrown weapons (grenades) 1*
Etiquette (mil) 1*
Dodge (ranged) 2
And a basic Knowledge (military procedure) for knowing how to fill out the appropriate forms and stuff.
This hits the minimum of everything you would need to pass a deployment squad validation; coming out of basic training for a brand new joe is less.. Somebody coming out of basic training would know less, including probably nothing of the stuff marked with an *asterisks. They get familiarization with that stuff, but familiarization doesn't a skill make.
Basically, all you have to do to pass basic is pass the ruck marches, obstacle course, PT test, field exercise, and shooting test. You do more stuff, but few of those are deal breakers to pass. Lower enlisted soldiers coming out of basic know damn near nothing.
Minimum physical attributes and willpower of 3, minimum reaction of 2.
Skills:
Close combat group 1
Athletics group 1
Firearms Skill group 1
Outdoors group 1
Automatics (broken out) 2 (Assault rifles)
Heavy weapons 1*
Pilot ground vehicle 1
Armorer (firearms) 1
First Aid (combat wounds) 1*
Thrown weapons (grenades) 1*
Etiquette (mil) 1*
Dodge (ranged) 2
And a basic Knowledge (military procedure) for knowing how to fill out the appropriate forms and stuff.
This hits the minimum of everything you would need to pass a deployment squad validation; coming out of basic training for a brand new joe is less.. Somebody coming out of basic training would know less, including probably nothing of the stuff marked with an *asterisks. They get familiarization with that stuff, but familiarization doesn't a skill make.
Basically, all you have to do to pass basic is pass the ruck marches, obstacle course, PT test, field exercise, and shooting test. You do more stuff, but few of those are deal breakers to pass. Lower enlisted soldiers coming out of basic know damn near nothing.
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Sep 22 2009, 08:40 AM)
And all this training would add up to a 1 or a 2. Though, specialty would indicate what skills get a 3.
Example:
Infantryman (basic Pvt fresh from boot camp, trained to western standards)
Running 1
Ettiqutte 1 (3 military)
Computers 1
Swimming 1
Survival 1
Infiltration 2
Dodge 2
Navigation 2
Close combat skill group 2
Fire arms skill group 3
Heavy weapons 2
Gunnery 2
Thrown weapons 1
First aid 1
Example:
Infantryman (basic Pvt fresh from boot camp, trained to western standards)
Running 1
Ettiqutte 1 (3 military)
Computers 1
Swimming 1
Survival 1
Infiltration 2
Dodge 2
Navigation 2
Close combat skill group 2
Fire arms skill group 3
Heavy weapons 2
Gunnery 2
Thrown weapons 1
First aid 1
There are a lot of skills being thrown around for training purposes here, but some of them are not very appropriate at the levels given... Of course, for those individuals who have advanced training with special forces or highly trained individual units in the various services, these levels might not even scratch the surface
For example...
Running: This skill is for increasing speed during your movement... in the Marine Corps, speed was never a factor, and "running" was used strictly for endurance training...
Swimming... The vast number fo Marines and NAvy personnel barely pass swim qualifications (of which you only need to be able to float)... Rank 1 is probably appropriate here... not too many complaints
Computers... I NEVER saw a computer in training, nor in any of my duty stations... Useless for Basic Training and Advanced Duty postings...
Gunnery is NOT a Basic skill trained in the Marine Corps, and only a select few are even trained in it post-Boot camp...
Firearms Skill Group... Not generally... You would be trained in Automatics, and maybe Pistols and/or longarms if your MOS allowed it, Few Marines would have had the entire group unless they started with it prior to Military Training
Heavy Weapons are a stretch in a lot of cases, but because the M203 is a Staple of the Marine Corps (and probably the Army as well), Everyone has skills in the Grenade Launcher, at least minimally, but not in any other general class of Heavy weapons unless your MOS dictates...
Close COmbat... Okay, Short blades, unarmed combat, and Clubs (Butt Stroke)... I can get on board with this
Navigation and Survival, for the Common Grunt woud be a 1 (not a 2) as MOST grunts are only passsably familiar with this skill... Some few who have gone through the Survival training might/would have slightly higer levels of these skills...
The remaining skills above I can go along with, but you missed some...
Climbing (Mountain Warfare Training Schools, of which at least on teh West Coast, Most Marine Corps Units participate, I assume that he East COast has a similar facility as well)...
Basic Leadership is taught to all personnel, you never know when you might find yourself in charge of a team, squad, platoon or Company...
Tracking, may be a niche skill, but when I was in teh Corps, our entire Batallion went through training to be at least relatively competant as such...
Diving and Parachuting, entire units train in these capabilities, and not all of them are Special Forces... there were a lot of individuals in my unit who had one or the other (or both) sets of training/qualifications...
Pilot Ground Craft: again, my entire batallion went through classes to drive both tanks and landing craft (the LVTP7) on the off chance we would need the skills...
Perception skills, noticing what is around you tends to keep you alive in combat situations...
Demolitions... Niche, but many grunts are minimally trained to do some things involving demolitions...
Not to mention any magical skills a military mage would acquire...
My 2
Keep the Faith...
QUOTE (DWC @ Sep 22 2009, 12:51 PM)
Actually, the US Army and US Marine Corps have spent a huge amount of time overhauling their hand to hand combat training programs in recent years. I can't say for sure how good their combatives programs are, but everything I've seen and heard indicates that it has definitely been made a priority. Sergeant Zim would be proud.
Hand to Hand in the Marine Corps was never inadequate or bad training, even when I was in the service; but yes, I have heard that the regimen has indeed been updated somewhat... Sergeant Zimm would definitely be proud...
SR4 assumes characters have basic skills to function in society so players can default on most needed skills for the military. Also if a skill is not used it will atrophy so being ex military does not mean you will keep your skills up if you didn't practice them (excellent example is athletics). I have known of plenty of people who could barely map read, shoot a weapon, or land navigate that did just fine in the military. What you are more likely to find are knowledge skills such as military protocol, military bureaucracy, etc. What should be disallowed unless in a 3rd world military is uneducated, uncouth, inept, deformity, etc. People like this fail out of basic training or are rejected out of hand.
Rank 1 and 2 is more about competence.
Rank 3 is professional
Rank 4 is expert
Rank 5 is Master
Rank 6 is world reknowned
Few people get rank 3 in a profession let alone 4+ so don't use 3 as an average except for well trained soldiers that practice diligently and daily.
Rank 1 and 2 is more about competence.
Rank 3 is professional
Rank 4 is expert
Rank 5 is Master
Rank 6 is world reknowned
Few people get rank 3 in a profession let alone 4+ so don't use 3 as an average except for well trained soldiers that practice diligently and daily.
It depends on which military you are talking about and which branch. Some conscripted militaries are little more than street punks with guns (whose main mode of attack is spray and pray). But some others like the Israeli and South Korean ones are pretty serious, even if their conscripts terms of service are pretty short. Some armies train more than others. Even if you are in a professional army, how often do you actually get out in the field to train and on the range to shoot? Every week? Every day? Some armies are the military equivalent of cram schools, training 16 hours a day for the entire service term. Others are pretty slack, so it really depends and there's a whole skill range out there.
So if someone says he was in the Korean army and said he was a slacker at nearly everything but range was fun, so he had good shooting skills. That's very plausible. If some rigger from Israel said he wasn't really interested in shooting crap out of people but he was a damned good tank driver, I see no reason to doubt him (particularly because I know someone in my platoon like that).
So if someone says he was in the Korean army and said he was a slacker at nearly everything but range was fun, so he had good shooting skills. That's very plausible. If some rigger from Israel said he wasn't really interested in shooting crap out of people but he was a damned good tank driver, I see no reason to doubt him (particularly because I know someone in my platoon like that).
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 22 2009, 09:56 AM)
No weapon class from the longarms group would be utilized by a grunt.
No blunt style weapon would be utilized by a military personal outside of MPs.
No blunt style weapon would be utilized by a military personal outside of MPs.
So hitting someone with your rifle butt or a muzzle strike uses what skill?
A few years ago I went through Air Force basic training and Security Forces tech school, I'll break down what I remember. This would be in Shadowrun 3 terms.
Active Skills:
Assault Rifle: 1
Athletics: 2
Biotech: 0
-First Aid: 2
Etiquette: 1
-Military: 3
Knowledge Skills:
Military Theory: 1
-Branch History: 3
Security Forces tech school:
Active Skills:
Assault Rifles: 2
Assault Rifles B/R: 1
Athletics: 1
Heavy Weapons: 2
Heavy Weapons B/R: 1
Launch Weapons: 2
Pistols: 3
Pistols B/R: 2
Small Unit Tactics: 1
Stealth: 2
Knowledge Skills:
Navigation (Land): 2
Police Procedures: 2
Security Procedures: 2
Security Forces History: 2
First duty station:
Clubs: 1
-Asp Baton: 3
-Riot Baton: 3
Biotech (First Aid): 2
Spray Weapons: 0
-Pepper Spray: 2
Desert warfare training:
Gunnery: 3
Heavy weapons: 1
Active Skills:
Assault Rifle: 1
Athletics: 2
Biotech: 0
-First Aid: 2
Etiquette: 1
-Military: 3
Knowledge Skills:
Military Theory: 1
-Branch History: 3
Security Forces tech school:
Active Skills:
Assault Rifles: 2
Assault Rifles B/R: 1
Athletics: 1
Heavy Weapons: 2
Heavy Weapons B/R: 1
Launch Weapons: 2
Pistols: 3
Pistols B/R: 2
Small Unit Tactics: 1
Stealth: 2
Knowledge Skills:
Navigation (Land): 2
Police Procedures: 2
Security Procedures: 2
Security Forces History: 2
First duty station:
Clubs: 1
-Asp Baton: 3
-Riot Baton: 3
Biotech (First Aid): 2
Spray Weapons: 0
-Pepper Spray: 2
Desert warfare training:
Gunnery: 3
Heavy weapons: 1
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 22 2009, 10:56 AM)
Nope.
Unarmed: 2
Blade: 2
Pistols: 2
Automatics: 3
No weapon class from the longarms group would be utilized by a grunt.
No blunt style weapon would be utilized by a military personal outside of MPs.
Unarmed: 2
Blade: 2
Pistols: 2
Automatics: 3
No weapon class from the longarms group would be utilized by a grunt.
No blunt style weapon would be utilized by a military personal outside of MPs.
Have they stopped doing Bayonet training?
Doesn't part of that training involves using the rifle butt?
Navy boot camp, we had rudimentary instruction in firefighting (a serious problem on a ship), very VERY minimal firearms training (most of what I know I learned from my gun collecting/dealing father and JROTC in high school), a lot of physical education, swimming and treading water, basic water survival, map reading, how to handle yourself in a gas chamber (which is to say how to snot up and tear up a lot), first aid, knot use, military etiquette, and a lot of naval history and craft identification.
All of these I would rate at level one or lower unless the character had them from before enlisting.
Oh, and if you are lucky to have had JROTC in high school, you can be a Recruit Starboard Watch Petty Officer and get extra experience at assigning the watchlist and taking the hit for anybody that screws up on watch.
All of my fun skills came after boot camp in A and C school. This is where your computer, electronics, mechanics, advanced firearms, and other higher level skills will come from. My basic skill loadout from A and C definitely puts me in the hacker/decker category.
If your character is ex-military that only survived boot camp before washing out, then they will not know much (what exactly, is varied by service). If points are spent in higher level skills, they likely continued on past basic training.
All of these I would rate at level one or lower unless the character had them from before enlisting.
Oh, and if you are lucky to have had JROTC in high school, you can be a Recruit Starboard Watch Petty Officer and get extra experience at assigning the watchlist and taking the hit for anybody that screws up on watch.
All of my fun skills came after boot camp in A and C school. This is where your computer, electronics, mechanics, advanced firearms, and other higher level skills will come from. My basic skill loadout from A and C definitely puts me in the hacker/decker category.
If your character is ex-military that only survived boot camp before washing out, then they will not know much (what exactly, is varied by service). If points are spent in higher level skills, they likely continued on past basic training.
QUOTE (cndblank @ Sep 22 2009, 10:17 PM)
Have they stopped doing Bayonet training?
Doesn't part of that training involves using the rifle butt?
Doesn't part of that training involves using the rifle butt?
They were still doing RBFT and playing with pugil sticks when I was in a few years back. I don't think that's changed (although I'm kinda curious as to how you do RBFT with an M-4).
I kinda want to create a character with blunt weapons 3 (butt-stroke to the head +2).
More of a comment on the 2070s than the modern military - remember just how damn much a commlink is used for. I'm willing to bet something special (with a low Signal compared to how sophisticated the rest is) is issued as part of the standard equipment kit in the 70s, and basic instruction in how to recognize when it's been compromised is going to be part of the basic training package. Thus Computer, or even Electronics at 1 might not be inappropriate.
I'm going to butt in here with a bit of background information that might be useful. And this is by no means meant as a negative mark on those brave men and women who are part of the military anywhere in the world.
A basic soldier's training and equipment in a modern country can't cost more than the economic value of his life.
This value is traditionally determined by the amount of money it costs to take 'someone', put him through a year of training, put a gun in his hand and point him at the enemy. Part of this is how much money you are to pay him as his salary and to keep him fed and clothed during that year.
In the Western world, these days, there is usually spend some money in making sure that when those basic soldiers go back into society they can function there as well. (I don't know how this is done in the USA)
***
In the dystopian future of Shadowrun, I suspect that governments don't use conscription anymore, going for a fully professional army. These armies would actually mostly pay for themselves through Corporate funding and serve a very specific function in the whole world as well. Why would Corporations take the time and effort to train their own security forces when that is a job that the government can do in a mutually beneficial situation. The government gets soldiers at a greatly reduced cost, and the Corporation who at that time has the contract for supplying the government can 'recruit' their security forces. Those who aren't picked straight out of the initial period can be recruited later when they hold more experience. This competition for better paying Corporate jobs also makes the soldiers better, because they want to shine to be recruited.
At least, that's one way it could work in a very logical way.
A basic soldier's training and equipment in a modern country can't cost more than the economic value of his life.
This value is traditionally determined by the amount of money it costs to take 'someone', put him through a year of training, put a gun in his hand and point him at the enemy. Part of this is how much money you are to pay him as his salary and to keep him fed and clothed during that year.
In the Western world, these days, there is usually spend some money in making sure that when those basic soldiers go back into society they can function there as well. (I don't know how this is done in the USA)
***
In the dystopian future of Shadowrun, I suspect that governments don't use conscription anymore, going for a fully professional army. These armies would actually mostly pay for themselves through Corporate funding and serve a very specific function in the whole world as well. Why would Corporations take the time and effort to train their own security forces when that is a job that the government can do in a mutually beneficial situation. The government gets soldiers at a greatly reduced cost, and the Corporation who at that time has the contract for supplying the government can 'recruit' their security forces. Those who aren't picked straight out of the initial period can be recruited later when they hold more experience. This competition for better paying Corporate jobs also makes the soldiers better, because they want to shine to be recruited.
At least, that's one way it could work in a very logical way.
QUOTE (d1ng0d0g @ Sep 23 2009, 05:14 AM)
In the dystopian future of Shadowrun, I suspect that governments don't use conscription anymore, going for a fully professional army. These armies would actually mostly pay for themselves through Corporate funding and serve a very specific function in the whole world as well. Why would Corporations take the time and effort to train their own security forces when that is a job that the government can do in a mutually beneficial situation. The government gets soldiers at a greatly reduced cost, and the Corporation who at that time has the contract for supplying the government can 'recruit' their security forces. Those who aren't picked straight out of the initial period can be recruited later when they hold more experience. This competition for better paying Corporate jobs also makes the soldiers better, because they want to shine to be recruited.
At least, that's one way it could work in a very logical way.
At least, that's one way it could work in a very logical way.
Sort of like Blackwater taken up a couple of notches. Of course, Blackwater does not fund our military (though they probably could) but they do recruit combatants when their terms are up. They take great interest in special forces personal, especially. 60 years in the future, when the corporate world is more entrenched in the economics and machinations of government, it makes perfect sense that corporations would get a pick of the litter in exchange for their cold hard cash contributions.
This would not be limited to generic grunts and special forces, but also include military intelligence, logistics officers, mechanics and drivers, and IT staff. After the proven effectiveness of Echo Mirage and what I can only imagine would be an escalation in attacks on government and military networks, they would have started staffing in-house military grade hackers regularly.
That is a lot of corporate loot thrown into the military. I can only imagine that the military would be more than willing to share info on whose term is up when, what a particular soldier is skilled at doing, and how that particular soldier did it during his career...
Of course a good shadowrunner concept could be an ex-military officer disgruntled at the corporate sponsorship of the military taking all of his good men and after getting screwed over by the process became a runner to get back at "the man"...
I'm not so sure. I've always seen it like this:
In the politics of the 2070s, there's a struggle between the corporations and the government. In varying parts of the world, one or the other will have the edge. Globally, corporations have had government on the back-foot since 2001, but that can change.
One of the ways it could change easily is military action.
I remember from Corporate Download, or one of the corp books, where it listed the corps' military forces in passing.
None came out to more than regimental sized.
Most were battalion-sized.
By contrast, the UCAS alone has divisions available. Maybe scaled-down divisions compared to now, but divisions nonetheless.
Why doesn't it change?
It would be economic suicide for a government to move against *all* of the corps at once.
So they don't. They move against one or two, in the shadows.
In the politics of the 2070s, there's a struggle between the corporations and the government. In varying parts of the world, one or the other will have the edge. Globally, corporations have had government on the back-foot since 2001, but that can change.
One of the ways it could change easily is military action.
I remember from Corporate Download, or one of the corp books, where it listed the corps' military forces in passing.
None came out to more than regimental sized.
Most were battalion-sized.
By contrast, the UCAS alone has divisions available. Maybe scaled-down divisions compared to now, but divisions nonetheless.
Why doesn't it change?
It would be economic suicide for a government to move against *all* of the corps at once.
So they don't. They move against one or two, in the shadows.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 22 2009, 10:56 AM)
Nope.
Unarmed: 2
Blade: 2
Pistols: 2
Automatics: 3
No weapon class from the longarms group would be utilized by a grunt.
No blunt style weapon would be utilized by a military personal outside of MPs.
Unarmed: 2
Blade: 2
Pistols: 2
Automatics: 3
No weapon class from the longarms group would be utilized by a grunt.
No blunt style weapon would be utilized by a military personal outside of MPs.
I'll disagree and I'll explain why.
When conducting training in the military they start in semi-automatic mode, not full auto. So alot of their knowledge comes from use that mode of fire. Quite frankly this is one of the quirks of SR breakouts of the Firearms skills sets. And troops would know how to use a shotgun (which are still used by the infantry today).
An infantry man does get some clubs experience (butt of rifle stock for example, which in SR would mean clubs).
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Sep 23 2009, 10:40 AM)
I'll disagree and I'll explain why.
When conducting training in the military they start in semi-automatic mode, not full auto. So alot of their knowledge comes from use that mode of fire. Quite frankly this is one of the quirks of SR breakouts of the Firearms skills sets. And troops would know how to use a shotgun (which are still used by the infantry today).
An infantry man does get some clubs experience (butt of rifle stock for example, which in SR would mean clubs).
When conducting training in the military they start in semi-automatic mode, not full auto. So alot of their knowledge comes from use that mode of fire. Quite frankly this is one of the quirks of SR breakouts of the Firearms skills sets. And troops would know how to use a shotgun (which are still used by the infantry today).
An infantry man does get some clubs experience (butt of rifle stock for example, which in SR would mean clubs).
The weapons skills govern the use of the weapon. I interpret that to also mean basic care of the weapon. Cleaning, disassembling, reassembling. Further, one class of weapons within a group (shotguns within longarms) does not justify having the entire longarms group at 3, but at best longarms 1 (Shotguns).
One example would not translate into a sudden mastery of all bludgeoning styled weaponry. In fact, I would prefer to treat it under the unarmed skill rather than clubs skill. The reason is because when you rifle butt someone, it's not swinging the weapon about while grabbing it by the barrel. The club relies on having a handle and some length between the grib and the actual "head" of the weapon. This increases the speed of the head to deliver maximum force. It's essentially an amplifier. Every time I've seen using a rifle as a weapon, the individual is essentially gripping near the striking surface and isn't swinging so much as directly propelling the striking surface. Fundamentally there really isn't much of a difference between rifle butting and using your own hand, the difference solely lies in the fact that the butt of the weapon is a denser and heavy material.
I agree with rob abd Chrome that basic training is just that; basic. "Foundation to build on" and all that. You learn a lot more at your next level of training ("A" school, Tech school, whatever it happens to be called depending on branch), and a lot more once you actually get out there and start doing. Boot camp kids generally know jack. They've been trained to do what they're told. Next you get told what to do. Then you start doing.
Depending on what your job is, where you're doing it, and how long you did it, is going to give you a lot of periheral skills. I didn't learn jack about heavy weapons in Navy boot camp, but my rate trains on them a lot, especially depending on what aspect of my job I'm actually focusing on. I'll give you some examples:
Based off of the skill lv explanations in SR4A - Novice being equivelant to shooting a bb gun.
Navy Boot Camp base skills:
My experience in "A" School for Master-At-Arms
Basically, a lot of the skills you're going to get from your training for your "job" is going to be specialized for what you're going to be doing. There's a lot of knowledge skills that are going to fall into there as well. Then once you get to your duty station, you get a lot of On the Job Training. The Navy loves OJT. My rate includs a lot of different jobs. Patrolman like me would add in Pilot Ground for example, more interview skills, knowledge skills, etc. Sentry duty is more Perception, but then you've got jobs on patrol boats (Brown Water Navy), personal security detail (body guard basically), working with Military Working Dogs, being an instructor, Corrections (brig duty), and so on.
You need to factor in exactly what the character was doing while they were in the military to get a realistic idea of what they'd be able to do, and as many pointed out, what skills would decline without regular practice.
Depending on what your job is, where you're doing it, and how long you did it, is going to give you a lot of periheral skills. I didn't learn jack about heavy weapons in Navy boot camp, but my rate trains on them a lot, especially depending on what aspect of my job I'm actually focusing on. I'll give you some examples:
Based off of the skill lv explanations in SR4A - Novice being equivelant to shooting a bb gun.
Navy Boot Camp base skills:
[ Spoiler ]
My experience in "A" School for Master-At-Arms
[ Spoiler ]
Basically, a lot of the skills you're going to get from your training for your "job" is going to be specialized for what you're going to be doing. There's a lot of knowledge skills that are going to fall into there as well. Then once you get to your duty station, you get a lot of On the Job Training. The Navy loves OJT. My rate includs a lot of different jobs. Patrolman like me would add in Pilot Ground for example, more interview skills, knowledge skills, etc. Sentry duty is more Perception, but then you've got jobs on patrol boats (Brown Water Navy), personal security detail (body guard basically), working with Military Working Dogs, being an instructor, Corrections (brig duty), and so on.
You need to factor in exactly what the character was doing while they were in the military to get a realistic idea of what they'd be able to do, and as many pointed out, what skills would decline without regular practice.
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Sep 23 2009, 08:40 AM)
When conducting training in the military they start in semi-automatic mode, not full auto. So alot of their knowledge comes from use that mode of fire. Quite frankly this is one of the quirks of SR breakouts of the Firearms skills sets. And troops would know how to use a shotgun (which are still used by the infantry today).
Yup. In 10 years of the reserves I fired a few thousand rounds of ammo (basic, ROTC, OBC, recurrent qualification, etc). I think I fired one magazine on full auto from an M16. Everything else was semi. Heck, if you are not a Ranger, SF etc you don't even get issued a rifle that CAN fire long bursts anymore.
The SR firearms skill breakdown can be charitably characterized as kind of bizarre.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 23 2009, 10:35 AM)
The weapons skills govern the use of the weapon. I interpret that to also mean basic care of the weapon. Cleaning, disassembling, reassembling. Further, one class of weapons within a group (shotguns within longarms) does not justify having the entire longarms group at 3, but at best longarms 1 (Shotguns).
One example would not translate into a sudden mastery of all bludgeoning styled weaponry. In fact, I would prefer to treat it under the unarmed skill rather than clubs skill. The reason is because when you rifle butt someone, it's not swinging the weapon about while grabbing it by the barrel. The club relies on having a handle and some length between the grib and the actual "head" of the weapon. This increases the speed of the head to deliver maximum force. It's essentially an amplifier. Every time I've seen using a rifle as a weapon, the individual is essentially gripping near the striking surface and isn't swinging so much as directly propelling the striking surface. Fundamentally there really isn't much of a difference between rifle butting and using your own hand, the difference solely lies in the fact that the butt of the weapon is a denser and heavy material.
One example would not translate into a sudden mastery of all bludgeoning styled weaponry. In fact, I would prefer to treat it under the unarmed skill rather than clubs skill. The reason is because when you rifle butt someone, it's not swinging the weapon about while grabbing it by the barrel. The club relies on having a handle and some length between the grib and the actual "head" of the weapon. This increases the speed of the head to deliver maximum force. It's essentially an amplifier. Every time I've seen using a rifle as a weapon, the individual is essentially gripping near the striking surface and isn't swinging so much as directly propelling the striking surface. Fundamentally there really isn't much of a difference between rifle butting and using your own hand, the difference solely lies in the fact that the butt of the weapon is a denser and heavy material.
By that same argument, a person that can shoot an M-16 could not shoot an AK. I would argue the point that hiiting with the rifle butt is much different (mechanicially and skill wise than with fists).
Take a look at arsenal-they define using the butt of a rifle as clubs (under inprovised weapons). Also to clarify, this is what an infantryman would have after reciveing all his initial training, and before he joined his first unit (once there, they'd pick up new skills). The way skills are defined in SR is why I would give some credence to the soldies having a longarms skill. Shotgun uses and abuses would be one of those item every soldier would have. Also, IMHO they would be equally skilled in all three, as some of the the skills from one (using/understanding your sight picture) translate across all types of firearms.
OT:Maybe firearms should be classified into the following:
w/Stock (when firing SA or SS with a weapon using a stock)
Automatics w/stock (when firing BF/FA with a weapon using a stock)
w/o stock (when firing SA or SS with a weapon not using a stock)
Automatics w/o stock (when firing BF/FA with a weapon not using a stock)
The key difference is how the weapons are handled (not the size of the weapon). When using a weapon with a stock (rifle) your sight picture and hands are in different positions from those used when shooting a pistol.
QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Sep 23 2009, 10:59 AM)
You need to factor in exactly what the character was doing while they were in the military to get a realistic idea of what they'd be able to do, and as many pointed out, what skills would decline without regular practice.
This is so true. I am ex-Air Force, six years spent working as an electronic warfare technician on the B-52 Bombers. Basic really only gives you a taste of what skills you'll need. Mainly it is to get you in shape both physically and mentally for the rest of your military career. I speak from personal experiance that at least 1/4 of my basic flight was not more than just familiar with combat and survival when leaving basic. I wouldn't even give them a skill rating. The only reason I would have given myself one is that my firearms experiance came from growing up in the rural midwestern US. Same with my survival skills. I would say mosr of the skills gained from basic would be physical fitness related and military knowledge skills, ar least for the Air Force. I mean six weeks doesn't give you a chance to learn many skills. Instead the skills would be gained from your tech/whatever school and on teh job training. For example I would give my self at least a 3 in Electronic warfare with a specialization in Jamming, both using and avoiding it. I would also have a high Hardware skill, a decent Computer skill, some 1's or 2's in a few others to include some physical training and leadership, but nothing really focused toward combat. The most combat training I got in the military was 1 day a year qualifying on the M-16 and pistol.
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Sep 23 2009, 11:16 AM)
By that same argument, a person that can shoot an M-16 could not shoot an AK. I would argue the point that hiiting with the rifle butt is much different (mechanicially and skill wise than with fists).
Take a look at arsenal-they define using the butt of a rifle as clubs (under inprovised weapons). Also to clarify, this is what an infantryman would have after reciveing all his initial training, and before he joined his first unit (once there, they'd pick up new skills). The way skills are defined in SR is why I would give some credence to the soldies having a longarms skill. Shotgun uses and abuses would be one of those item every soldier would have. Also, IMHO they would be equally skilled in all three, as some of the the skills from one (using/understanding your sight picture) translate across all types of firearms.
OT:Maybe firearms should be classified into the following:
w/Stock (when firing SA or SS with a weapon using a stock)
Automatics w/stock (when firing BF/FA with a weapon using a stock)
w/o stock (when firing SA or SS with a weapon not using a stock)
Automatics w/o stock (when firing BF/FA with a weapon not using a stock)
The key difference is how the weapons are handled (not the size of the weapon). When using a weapon with a stock (rifle) your sight picture and hands are in different positions from those used when shooting a pistol.
Take a look at arsenal-they define using the butt of a rifle as clubs (under inprovised weapons). Also to clarify, this is what an infantryman would have after reciveing all his initial training, and before he joined his first unit (once there, they'd pick up new skills). The way skills are defined in SR is why I would give some credence to the soldies having a longarms skill. Shotgun uses and abuses would be one of those item every soldier would have. Also, IMHO they would be equally skilled in all three, as some of the the skills from one (using/understanding your sight picture) translate across all types of firearms.
OT:Maybe firearms should be classified into the following:
w/Stock (when firing SA or SS with a weapon using a stock)
Automatics w/stock (when firing BF/FA with a weapon using a stock)
w/o stock (when firing SA or SS with a weapon not using a stock)
Automatics w/o stock (when firing BF/FA with a weapon not using a stock)
The key difference is how the weapons are handled (not the size of the weapon). When using a weapon with a stock (rifle) your sight picture and hands are in different positions from those used when shooting a pistol.
It is kinda quirky in SR, an M16 and an AR15 would use different skills to shoot. I think ARs need to be added back into Longarms, and shotguns need to be separated out. Heavy weapons also needs to be broken up, there is a major difference between firing a LAW and a LMG.
QUOTE (MusicMan @ Sep 23 2009, 12:55 PM)
It is kinda quirky in SR, an M16 and an AR15 would use different skills to shoot. I think ARs need to be added back into Longarms, and shotguns need to be separated out. Heavy weapons also needs to be broken up, there is a major difference between firing a LAW and a LMG.
For skeet or trap you might want to separate them. For the purpose of shooting people, an M16 and a shotgun work exactly the same. Align the sights, pull the trigger to the rear.
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Sep 23 2009, 08:40 AM)
I'll disagree and I'll explain why.
When conducting training in the military they start in semi-automatic mode, not full auto. So alot of their knowledge comes from use that mode of fire. Quite frankly this is one of the quirks of SR breakouts of the Firearms skills sets. And troops would know how to use a shotgun (which are still used by the infantry today).
An infantry man does get some clubs experience (butt of rifle stock for example, which in SR would mean clubs).
When conducting training in the military they start in semi-automatic mode, not full auto. So alot of their knowledge comes from use that mode of fire. Quite frankly this is one of the quirks of SR breakouts of the Firearms skills sets. And troops would know how to use a shotgun (which are still used by the infantry today).
An infantry man does get some clubs experience (butt of rifle stock for example, which in SR would mean clubs).
The USMC is not in the habit of issuing SHotguns to Infantry personnel... in some niche postings like Embassy Duty or Barracks Duty (Guarding Weapons) they are issued for certain posts, but in general, the infantry does not see Shotguns...
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 22 2009, 08:59 PM)
Perception skills, noticing what is around you tends to keep you alive in combat situations...
Don't forget the "Spot Drill Sergeant" specialization for this one. If nothing else, anyone that survives basic learns how to sense a Smokey The Bear hat coming.
QUOTE (Critias @ Sep 23 2009, 06:21 PM)
Don't forget the "Spot Drill Sergeant" specialization for this one. If nothing else, anyone that survives basic learns how to sense a Smokey The Bear hat coming.
No Doubt about that...
QUOTE (fistandantilus4.0 @ Sep 22 2009, 04:32 PM)
A couple of skills that may not be immediately obvious for a military trained character, but should be:
Running ( no brainer)
Etiquette (Military specialization)
Leadership (basic leadership skills, doesn't have to be in regards to tactics)
Computers ( very basic, btu a lot of training is done on them)
Swimming (It's surprising how many people join the Navy that can't swim)
Survival (especially if the character was a pilot)
Navigation (especially Army)
Unarmed Combat (Depends on branch. Navy teaches very little unless your job specifically includes that)
First Aid (spec combat wounds)
Weapons skills and general combat-ness beyond really depends on what they did, where they did it, who they did it for, and how long they were doing it. But there's a few other ideas to round it out a bit more. That's not including knowledge skills of course. But for a beginning character, basic training in these is only going to put their skill at a Rating 1 unless it's something they use regularly.
Running ( no brainer)
Etiquette (Military specialization)
Leadership (basic leadership skills, doesn't have to be in regards to tactics)
Computers ( very basic, btu a lot of training is done on them)
Swimming (It's surprising how many people join the Navy that can't swim)
Survival (especially if the character was a pilot)
Navigation (especially Army)
Unarmed Combat (Depends on branch. Navy teaches very little unless your job specifically includes that)
First Aid (spec combat wounds)
Weapons skills and general combat-ness beyond really depends on what they did, where they did it, who they did it for, and how long they were doing it. But there's a few other ideas to round it out a bit more. That's not including knowledge skills of course. But for a beginning character, basic training in these is only going to put their skill at a Rating 1 unless it's something they use regularly.
To preface: Different country, different service. Airfield defence, with a lot of ranging. I picked up a bit of demolitions, although that was a special course I took after employment and basic. The others look right, but everyone learns a bit of basic unarmed over here, everyone learns basic first aid (not always combat wounds), not everyone learns swimming. I know a lot of guys did exercises in the pool holding the side, since it was not expected they be able to swim. Etiquette, not so much. It wasn't needed enough (Maybe only as an officer, but not for us general entry scum). Computers, not so much. We just used pen and paper. Although I suppose that in the FUTURE a point of computer background for all the AR stuff would be needed. I left qualified with only two weapons, and left employment with a few more qualifications in that sort of thing but I wouldn't peg myself as a great shot - I fit minimum accuracy requirements (higher for me than others) and nothing else. A lot of people leave that way, so a 1 or 2 would be enough with a firearm skill.
From the perspective of a conscript army, even one that is acknowledge to stack up pretty good against other countries in the region:
1) You will be trained in certain skills. You will be ruthless hounded, put pressure on, pushed to acquire those skills, but at the end of the day, if you aren't motivated to pick up the skill, they can't really extend your service term.
2) If you enjoy certain activities, and those activities coincide with "military skills", you are given the freedom to hone those skills safely during your "down" times, barring certain things like shooting where the range and ammo has to be booked ahead by the officers. Even so, if another company has "free" slots for range, and you want to shoot, you are often welcomed to go shoot.
The 2 observations lead to this: The absence of certain military skills is not remarkable in conscript armies, excellence in certain skills is not remarkable either.
1) You will be trained in certain skills. You will be ruthless hounded, put pressure on, pushed to acquire those skills, but at the end of the day, if you aren't motivated to pick up the skill, they can't really extend your service term.
2) If you enjoy certain activities, and those activities coincide with "military skills", you are given the freedom to hone those skills safely during your "down" times, barring certain things like shooting where the range and ammo has to be booked ahead by the officers. Even so, if another company has "free" slots for range, and you want to shoot, you are often welcomed to go shoot.
The 2 observations lead to this: The absence of certain military skills is not remarkable in conscript armies, excellence in certain skills is not remarkable either.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 23 2009, 07:13 PM)
The USMC is not in the habit of issuing SHotguns to Infantry personnel... in some niche postings like Embassy Duty or Barracks Duty (Guarding Weapons) they are issued for certain posts, but in general, the infantry does not see Shotguns...
From what I heard from people who were there and recalling some articles, shotguns were in Falujiah in considerable numbers. Their primary role was to blast locks off doors when entering a building, but also as a close quarters combat weapon. In the standard organizational tables..no they are not there. But when needed the most certainly are avaialble.
QUOTE (kzt @ Sep 23 2009, 03:11 PM)
For skeet or trap you might want to separate them. For the purpose of shooting people, an M16 and a shotgun work exactly the same. Align the sights, pull the trigger to the rear.
I hate to sound pretentious, but: go shoot a three-gun tournament and then come back and say that. A rifle and a shotgun require a slightly different way of thinking.
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Sep 23 2009, 11:52 PM)
From what I heard from people who were there and recalling some articles, shotguns were in Falujiah in considerable numbers. Their primary role was to blast locks off doors when entering a building, but also as a close quarters combat weapon. In the standard organizational tables..no they are not there. But when needed the most certainly are avaialble.
Yeah, more and more they are becoming more prevalent in urban combat for those very reasons. There are not very many weapons well-suited for breaching doors. Also notice that the assault rifles are shrinking in size as well. Compare an old school M16 with a newer M4 and you will also see that its size reflects our shift toward a more CQB-oriented philosophy.
QUOTE (kzt @ Sep 23 2009, 02:14 PM)
Yup. In 10 years of the reserves I fired a few thousand rounds of ammo (basic, ROTC, OBC, recurrent qualification, etc). I think I fired one magazine on full auto from an M16. Everything else was semi. Heck, if you are not a Ranger, SF etc you don't even get issued a rifle that CAN fire long bursts anymore.
The SR firearms skill breakdown can be charitably characterized as kind of bizarre.
The SR firearms skill breakdown can be charitably characterized as kind of bizarre.
And yet, in the Canadian Forces, we never had our version of the M16 come with a burst governor. We didn't do a whole lot of auto, but that was mainly budget restrictions. My point, though, is that the SR skills have to simulate a very broad range of outcomes, not ones related to very specific circumstances. This is supposed to be a game, not a reality simulator, and we should be very careful bringing real world into the game as it tends to produce unanticipated results.
I remember introducing more realistic archery rules into a capmaign of D&D I was running and it came back to bite me when one of my players turned out to be a competition archer. Realistic rules are, on the whole, bad. Realistic enough, however, are generally good.
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