So can astral mages attack mundanes from the astral?

Nope.
(Maybe if they have an active focus on their body, but the effect depends onthe edition you are playing.)

Not in SR3 and SR4. They cannot attack other mages that are not currently projecting or assensing either.

Correct, you must be on the physical plane to effect the physical plane. Astral mages can, however, act as spotters for ritual spellcasting.

How does this work for spellcasting? I thought I remembered reading about something where a mage in the physical could cast a spell on the astral, but I can't find it at the moment. Can you cast on one or the other, or do you have to be astral to cast on the astral and physical to cast on the physical?

When Astrally Perceiving you are Dual Natured and can therefore cast both. That's the only time you can do that, though.

Only by conjuring a spirit and telling him to materialise himself and attack the poor mundane victim.

Since all magic has a presence on the astral plane could a magician counterspell a spell on material plane from the astral plane?

That's actually a real good question, but I think the answer is no. Think of the Astral Plane and Physical Plane as being two rooms separated by a one way mirror. Astral can look into the Physical, but it can't affect anything there in any way whatsoever. Physical meanwhile thinks it is all on its own, and also can't affect anything in the Astral room.

Duel Natured things are standing in both rooms at the same time.

The "all magic has a presence on the astral plane" was the case in SR2 (IIRC). That's gone, along with some other interactions between the planes (like grounding). A spell cast on the physical plane only happens on the physical plane using mana flying around on the physical plane. It never "happens" on the astral, although it can be assensed from the astral just like a purely mundane effect could be assensed.

Hmm, I guess I got the impression that that was still the case. I'd better re-read the section on magic and not tell my players that the mage that attempted to dispel the player's levitate was in the astral plane. Which no of the players asked about so everything is good, nothing to see here, move along!

Or your player already knows and is simply keeping it in reserve to lock your BBEG into a hold he cannot escape.

It should be noted that spells on the physical plane are still easy to see on the astral plane, but yes, a spell is either astral or physical, spells are not dual-natured.

And that's why conjuration is a mages path to power, though in my group at least we've ruled that spirits don't like to be used as bunker buster bombs, getting dropped into a dangerous situation while the mage sits safely in astral.

No the player is new to SR, and doesn't tend to read the game systems before playing. He tends to pick everything up as we play. Which is very annoying.

And logically if the spell is visible then one should be able to affect it. But I guess I'll just use my suspension of un-reality to ignore what my mind is telling me.

The moon is visible isn't it? Can you affect the moon?

If your magic rating is big enough, yes, yes you can.
Or if you have a REALLY big weapon. The moon is a BIG Target.
Also: don't try to apply logic to
a) Magic
b) Shadowrun
c) both of the above

Well, you can see the aura's of metahumans in the astral planes, but you can't meaningfully affect those.

i would choose another way of explaining why counterspelling on the AP doesn't affect the mundane guys around: counterspelling creates something like "mana noise" to make it harder for other mages to succeed with spells. at least IIRC. but your static would only affect the AP, not the mundane plane where the spell takes effect.

and what about sustained or quickend spells: these should have an astral form. are these attackable?

They don't have an astral form if they are cast on the physical plane. You have to counterspell them on the physical plane on use a physical mana barrier to block them. Luckily, wards, the most common type of mana barrier, are dual-natured.

My old group and I came up a very different conclusion about the Assensing and Counterspelling business for Physical spells: we surmised that Assensing and Counterspelling will work on Physical spells from the AP. Since Awakened characters draw ambient mana from their surroundings and force that into a spell, the casting would be detected through Assensing. In addition, disruption of drawing in that mana through Counterspelling would disrupt the spell cast.

Also according to our reasoning, mana was used an energetic force that channeled whatever physical force/energy. Thus, there would be residual mana sustaining or carrying out the spell. Since there was the presence of mana, it could be Assensed or Counterspelled.

Now our reasonings make several assumptions:

1. All mages needed to draw in mana to spell cast.
2. All mages drew in mana from the local environment.
3. Mana can be disrupted to prevent its use by another mage.

For physical spells

1. Physical effects (ex. lightning) follow their own rules of physics (ex. lightning goes to the nearest ground).
2. Thus any controlling physical effects would require addition energy/force.
3. By inference, that unknown force/energy is magic.

However, if one doesn't agree with these assumptions, they of course Counterspelling or Assensing from the AP does not work.

Plus, if one is using the assumption that magic is used to only initially cause the initial conditions for a physical effect to have a particular behavior, then magic would only be required at the beginning of the spell, and the physical effects would not register as magical effects.

For example, instead of the magic shaping a lightning bolt, let's say that magic is used to 'program' the electrons to act as a coherent stream of energy. Then magic would do its work while the electrons were around the mage. Then once the electrons are released, there would be no magic needed to guide the electrons to their target. The electrons would be 'programmed' to move in a straight line.

Yeah, because those are on a whole other plane.
If you look at the moon on the astral,IF YOU EVEN SEE IT, you can't affect it either.
If you look at the moon with your meaty eye-stuff? Sure you can, if you're strong.

What would you be trying to do to the moon with your magic? The question is academic, though, as there is no mana in space, you would not be able to effect the moon with magic regardless of what you were trying to do.

As of SR4(a), Space is a Force 10 or 12 Mana-shallow.
So you can pump magic in there. Remember what Winternacht did?
They made it look as if the Moon had vanished, eaten by a giant wolf.
You can have FUN with that!
Improved invisibility on the moon, fuck up everything.

Doh! More edition creep! Hasn't come in to play in SR for me in any version, but at least now I know the current status. Did not catch the Winternacht thing either, where is that detailed?

Systemfailure i think.
Or in the general Background in the History Department of the SR4 Core Book.
I am at work right now, i don't have my books here.

In SR3, Space was a rating 10 or 12 Background-Count i believe.
Never come up so far, but there have been strange discussions around here.
Things like a Cyberzombie Dwarf, only Torso and head, no arms and legs, carry around in a backpack.
Now you only have to override HIS backgroundcount and can do magic in space . .

Can you destroy an object by shooting it's shadow?

Which all totaled comes to jack shit. Sorcery cannot cross the planar boundaries - flat out. The mana used to cast a spell on the Physical plane comes from - guess what - the Physical plane. Mana to cast a spell on the Astral plane comes from the Astral plane.


If you try reading the rules, it becomes very clear; if you are on the Physical plane, you can affect Physical objects & creatures only. If you are on the Astral plane, you can affect Astral objects & creatures only (auras are not sufficient - they are reflections or shadows). If you are Dual Natured, you can affect one or the other, not both.

Yes that should be mentioned. A dual-natured creature can see both planes at once, and even act on both planes, but if they cast a spell, they must decide whether it is on the physical or astral plane.

Also a note, an astrally perceiving magician cannot target physical targets with LOS spells, since they can't see the target(only their aura) they cannot target them. Touch spells on the other hand...

Yes, actually, they can. Seeing the aura is equivalent to Line of Sight for spell targeting. It simply does not work when using Astral Projection because the mage is not on the same plane.

Except that the aura of something is part of the metaphysical whole. While the shadow is an effect of the physical form.

Not directly while Projecting. Just send your summoned spirit to attack instead.