When a mage orders a spirit to preferm a combat...what's a combat? Is it one fight or one round?

Depends on how it's phrased. Typically it's one service. "Destroy all the ghouls in that building" or "Kill the mage in Red" is one service. "Defend me against anyone who attacks me" is also one service, though I think that could be said to be a service that could continue from summoning to dismissal.

The more specific you get the more services you burn. One general service leaves more options to the Spirit as to how to accomplish it. For example, an earth elemental could drop the entire building as a solution to the ghoul issue.

It's the entire combat. Assume the spirit knows who is the enemy and who are friends. I would also do the following (always to keep things simple):
- The spirit attacks a random enemy or the closest (unless the service says otherwise)
- The player controls the spirit entirely, using the best of its powers as the player sees fit, however ...
- The GM decides when to spend Edge. Since spirits also feel pain, use Edge to help resist whenever you believe (if you were the spirit) that you would need it.

Lastly, if you believe the player is not treating his spirit well (over time, that is), the player may be going on the Spirit Bane negative quality road.

for us, the use of a service for combat is one fight, be it 2 turns against a microdrone or 5 turns against a troll adept.

Once the fight is concluded, the service is done, within reason.

This is pretty well defined in the book.

table pp. 188 sr4a

Unbound spirit services:
Combat (physica or astral) see pp. 186 sr4a
Continuous Use of a Power, see pp. 186 sr4a
Perform Physical Task, see pp. 186 sr4a
Remote Service, see pp. 187 sr4a

example;
the mage calls his air elemental and comands it to "attack those 4 (mundane) shadowruners."
the spirit must materialize (first service; use of a power) then it may enter physical combat using it's physical stats to attack on the material plane (second service; combat). It will do this until disrupted or until sunrise/sunset.
If the mage additionaly wants the air spirit to use it's Elemental Attack to cast lightning bolts at the shadowrunners each use of the power uses up another service.

Close, but not quite. Using a power is only a service if the summoner specifically tells the spirit to use it with specific parameters. So, if you tell a spirit to fight mundane guys and the spirit now has to materialize (or possess something, for that matter) to actually do so, that's not actually a service you have to pay for. And if the spirit decides to fight by throwing lightning bolts and engulfing guys, because it's the most effective way, you don't have to pay for those power uses as services either.

Dragnar is right. The rulebook does state that if a spirit uses several of its power during combat, they don't count as separate service.

If you DIRECT the spirit to do this in combat they could be counted as separate services. That's what I mean by being more specific. For one service the spirit is going to attempt to resolve the situation in a self-directed way. Typically in the way that it sees both as most effective and minimally risky to it, bystanders, property damage and everything else is not included in its plan.

It partly depends on the spirits relationship with it's master. If you abuse your spirits the spirit will take your orders as literally as possible, often to your disadvantage, and won't use powers unless specifically ordered(and thus wasting services).

On the other hand, a spirit who likes their master will follow their masters intent, and make free use of their powers if they believe it will be useful.

Really?

where does the book state this?

Is it in the part where it says that the use (or continuous use) of a power costs one service. Because it says that specificaly in the table on page 188. sr4a.
Both in the text and in the table combat and use of powers is strictly seperate. The only caveat provided in the text is that combat OR use of a power against multiple opponents in the same conflict does not cost additional services.

There are only 4 services an unbound spirit can provide.
Thus there are only 4 types of comands a mage can give an unbound spirit
combat (physical or astral) = 1 service
use of a power (continuous or permanent) = 1 service.
Perform physical task = 1 service
Remote service (any of the above > 100m from the mage) = 1 service

Giving a spirit a broad and undefined order such as "kill that guy" is slopy. In that case the mage has assigned a task rather than requesting a service. The spirit should definitely be able to slopily follow that order as it sees fit the same way any NPC would. (see "roleplaying sprits and services" pp. 188 sr4a.) If several services are required to complete one task, so be it. I'm not argueing that a well treated spirit wouldn't choose the most efficient way to complete the task. Merely saying that the player needs to be specific about the requests he makes and the GM ought to apply the rules in the interests of Game ballance.

Playing excessive latitude in the area of spirit services is one of the reasons there have been so many "mages are too powerfull" threads on this board. Just because it's magic doesn't mean the rules don't apply.

If I tell my fire spirit to kill that man, which would be a single service, I would be surprised and angered if he didn't use energy aura, elemental attack, or engulf to pull it off. The spirit has the powers, and it costs the spirit nothing to use them. Unless they want to be a jerk, there is no reason they wouldn't use the quickest most effective way to perform a task.

"bolded" by OTP

You make my point for me. Is "Kill that man" a "Service" or a "Task"? (those are the words you used Dude.)
By the rules "Kill that man" is a TASK. And as you say a spirit who has been treated well should use the most efficient means at it's disposal to do the bidding of it's master. Generaly that will be the use (or several uses) of a power wich will cost a service (or several).

A spirit can't just spend it's services how it wants. You have to give it an order, then it will take up a service. How the spirit accomplishes the service is up to the spirit(unless you are specific).

And anyways, SR4A pg.186

"The use of combative powers or abilities by a spirit on behalf
of its summoner only counts as one service, regardless of the number
of foes involved."

Go reread page SR4A 186, Spirit Services. It pretty clearly lays out that a continuous use of a single power is a task and counts as a service. I'm sure we agree there. However, at no point does it say that a power used under the spirits own volition during the course of the task counts as a service.

Using Materialize to reach the physical plane to kill some mundanes would be the only way the spirit could complete the "Kill those guys" task. It is bound to do so to the best of it's abilities, so it would manifest of it's own volition. You say that counts as an additional service, along with simply giving the order to attack. By your reading of these rules, the spirit could simply blink in and out of the astral a few times, burn through it's services and split for the metaplanes released of it's duty without ever fulfilling the original task. In fact, there would be nothing keeping a spirit from doing so at summoning, prior even to a task being stated. Hell, the fire elemental is on fire, so there's one right there, huh? Unless you are also reading in some means of a character allowing a spirit to use an additional service to trigger a power, which would be tedious in the extreme and is never mentioned that I can see. However the section Remote Services pretty clearly states that there isn't communication, or else the summoner could call off the spirit with a thought.

I don't want to sound harsh, but I think you're taking too sharp a reading of this rule.

You don't sound harsh to me at all. And I hope I'm not comming off that way either. I'm simply trying to make two points.

the first is that in adjudicaing the magical part of the game it is especially important to be vigilent in not allowing too broad an interpretation of the rules. The pit fall here is that being too lenient and lazy about applying the rules to one character achetype--the mage--is what causes imbalance in a rules set that is actually well ballanced. The "tertiary characters" (drones, agents, sprites) of Riggers, Hackers and even Technomancers have pretty well defigned limitations. This is not the case with spirits. Intuitively players and rules limit the utility of tech based helpers because we have some IRL experience with those limitations. On the other hand the tendency of players of spirits is to treat spirits as allies with free will, which they are not.

My second point is that there are no rules for requesting an unbound spirit complete a TASK. A task would be a series of actions requred to achieve a goal. A strict reading of the rules for commanding unbound spirits should indicate that you cannot make such a request or command at all. Period. However, most spirits are intellegent beings and 'should be treated like NPC's' so I personally do allow lattitude for generalized requests that are actuallly tasks such as "kill that guy". Strictly speaking though; a player cannot request a TASK from a spirit he can only request that the spirit provide one of four well defigned SERVICES.

Because I think my verbiage hasn't been understood in above posts.
"Kill that guy" = Task and may require several Services as the spirit will find the most effective way to complete the task and might chose both combat and the use of powers or several aplications of a power. A good example would be an air spirit casting several lightning bolts at an opponent.
"Attack that guy" = 1 Service as the spirit will then enter physical or astral combat.
"Engulf that guy" = 1 Service it requires the spirit to use a power.

Why I think that Materialization Costs One Service.


Why I think that "Energy aura" usually doesn't cost the use of a power.
Energy aura is an optional power that is a continuous radiation of the spirit there are no mechanics that indicate that the spirit is capable of turning it on or off. Also it generally applies only in the case of melee combat. In the case of the command "attack that guy" the spirit has no discresion to apply the effect or not. The command costs 1 Combat Service because the command was for combat. In the case of the command "light those drapes on fire" or "make me some ice cubes" We should assume that, unless the mage is an asshole, the spirit will make the most efficient use of Services in accomplishing the Task the spirit with Energy Aura would likely be successfull with a single application of it's aura while successive use of an elemtal attack might be required.
Note: the same application of common sence would apply to the Natural Weapon power.

Why I think that each use "Elemental Attack" costs a Service the same as any other Power with a Duration of "Instant".
Mostly because it is a power the same as the Accident power or the Innate spell power. I have a hard time believing that any player would expect a GM to accept a comand like, "Use your accident power on that guy over and over till he dies." as a single service. A Spirit of Man might be able to cast Flame Thrower as an Inate Spell power but resists drain each time it uses the power. Obviously it's gona cost a service each time the spirit has to resist drain. Flame Thrower is almost exactly the same thing as the Fire Spirit's Elemental Attack. Just because a fire spirit doesn't have to resist drain doesn't mean he's going to go blasting everything for free.

Finaly:

Obviously this means that the use of powers that might concievably effect multiple targets such as Paralyzing Howel, Engulf, Concealment etc. cost only a single Service per use no matter how many targets are effected. The command to "Use Paralyzing Howel" might concievably effect thousands of targets but is is a single use of a power and costs a single Service. The reasoning that the quoted sentence means that successive use of an Elemental Attack power on multiple opponents costs a single Service enables the command; "Go shoot a thousand orks with fire." as a single Service. Such reasoning is ludicris or at least illogical and conflicts with the rules.

Spirits are reasonably intelligent (attributes equal to force). In fact, they're often smarter than half your teammates. If given an order that leaves room for interpretation, they're going to use their abilities in the way that makes the most sense. First, they don't like to materialize, so they're not going to, if they don't have to. But if you tell it to "kill that guy" and that guy has no astral presence, then they will. And it won't cost you two services to kill the guy. "Sorry boss, you only have one service left, and it will take me one just to materialize - then I get to go home." Does that make sense? Or how about, "sorry boss, the only way I can hurt this guy is if I cast a mana bolt, and it will probably take several, but I see you only have two services left. Would you prefer an accident?

Anyway, so it materializes. Then let's say it's dealing with a nasty adept troll with a claymore. It's gonna say, "no way, I'm not going near that thing with my 3 BOD. I'm going to aim an air blast at it with my 8 AGL." You give it a task, and it decides how best to accomplish it. It's not going to let you straitjacket it into making a task more difficult than necessary, by counting services. Especially when there's risk involved with a method that doesn't involve it using it's powers.

Oh, and ha! I'm smarter than you because I've made more posts than you!

I don't care how smart you are your avatar still gives me wood.



It's the mage's job to keep track of how many services are owed and give the spirit inteligent commands. I agree with pretty much every thing you're saying. Spirits are smart they'll do the best they can. Spirits might ask you not to command them to get hacked by a troll. Spirits might suggest an accident rather than taking drain multiple times casting an innage spell. It doesn't matter how you role play it but the game mechanics are there in black and white. Each use of a power costs a service.

Only if the specific power is specifically requested at that time by the mage or someone the spirit has been loaned to. The mage can say "Kill everyone in that building" and that requires 1 service and only 1 service, and the spirit will keep killing till it is disrupted, the building is empty or the sun crosses the horizon. The book says spirits will engage in combat and that said combat costs 1 service regardless of the number of targets involved. The spirit will also (unless it is angry with its summoner) use its abilities to best accomplish its task. If that means 4000 uses of its various powers, then it will use those powers 4000 times.

Using your spirits in this manner will however more then likely piss them off unless they are a blood thirst guardian or beast spirit, and likely get them to start doing the best they can to give you what you ask for, but not what you want. If however your spirit is ordered to kill a group containing X many guards, it will do so to the best of its ability, as that is what it is supposed to do. If that means materializing in the middle of them, and cooking them all with several uses of its energy aura power, then so be it. Its still just 1 service.

Sorry a double post.

If you tell a spirit to kill very ork on the planet, it will do so at the cost of only one service, until something stops it and it leaves behind loads of evidence pointing to you...and also all the spirits are going to use edge to resist summoning from now on. Good job.

Unless it was a blood thirsty beast spirit, at which point it might thank you for the rampage.....

You've said that multiple times now and use it as a basis for your interpretation, but as several people have alluded to, you're simply wrong there. The listed services aren't the only things you can request of a spirit. They're the only thing that cost a service if you request them from a spirit. That's a world of difference.

And there's no nebulous difference between a "task" and a "service", even though you claim that all the time.


Or even more clearly

Everything a spirit does while completing your task (which you can request of it, despite what you said), doesn't count as a service, if it does it on its own volition.

And this

You can request stuff that's not a service and doesn't count as a service. Specifically. On purpose. As seen even more clearly here:



So if you want to houserule spirits to make them less powerful, be my guest, but please stop claiming that's RAW...

Thanks for finding those quotes from the book. They clear up this nicely.

It should be noted that one of the disadvantages of being cruel to spirits is that they will demand services to do minor physical actions. You know you've been doing it wrong when an earth spirit wants a service to pick up your soykaf.

Yeah, me too.

I would suggest that when the BBB says that it costs a service for the things on the list, like using powers, the reason it is worded that way, is because some players might not understand that asking a spirit to use a power should cost anything. You can just picture it, "It's not like I'm ordering it to go into combat or anything. I'm just asking it to burn a hole in that door. Fire spirits live for that sort of thing!"