Emphasis mine.

We have a player in our game that selected every MA that had a +1 DV bonus and bought only that bonus several times across every MA that offered it. This gives the PC an 11DV with MA (3 STR +7 for MA, +1 Critical strike), claiming that MA lets you stack it all.

The description states dice modifiers. DV is not a Dice Mod, it's a derived value and is not rolled.

Is it legal to just buy all the DVs and punch like an assault cannon?

Appreciate it. Thank you.

Anytime

We've got someone similar at our table, except he went the route of taking Critical Strike like 6 times, plus Hardliner Gloves, plus Kick-Boxing for +1 DV... Makes him a bit of a glass cannon, but it seems legal as far as we can tell.

Add Combat Sense (as much as you can, it's more important than critical strike) for less glass, more cannon. Bone lacing helps too, if you can afford the Essence hit. It removes the option of nonlethal blows, though

I have that guy in my game, too. Satyr physad. Does 12P, -3 Armor with his attacks. This bothered me, until I realized two things:

1) Yeah, that's scary, but so's the mage with force 7 invoked spirits. Or the street sam with the APDS-filled Ares Alpha, and the sniper rifle. Or the pistol adept with the ridiculous dice pools.

2) Punching a guy into meaty chunks with the force of an assault cannon is totally awesome.

Kick-boxing stacks with gloves? Sweet, your adept wears booties

Among other considerations, the martial arts quality is only avalable up to 20 BP, so you can only take 4 bonuses (And of course errata limited it to +3 DV max) also keep in mind what styles the bonuses are coming from. Boxing should not stack with kickboxing. Kickboxing should not stack with hardliner gloves(though admittedly they likely make a shoe version of this). Boxing should not stack with kick, and so on.

Also, that makes the character exceedingly one dimensional, and will be utterly slaughtered when engaging outside of 5m or so. Also, if he burned all his points on critical strike... he only has 1 IP? Don't forget that '-1 per attack against you since your last action' thing when he is getting shot at, or punched at. Also don't forget the 'friends/enemies in melee' and such things.

The maximum of 20 BP as I understand it is only for a single martial art. you could take 4 advantages from boxing and 3 from Krav Maga at character generation. Additionally there are only 4 advantages for each martial art.

While you may think that bonuses from different martial arts should not stack according to raw they do as long as the bonuses do not exceed the characters combat skill.

A player who is an aficionado of martial arts media could make a good case for there being some overlap. For instance, Kickboxers use a combination of boxing-style punches with brutal knee, shin, and foot strikes. These moves would mix easily with a Boxer's footwork and powerful punches.

Even seemingly incompatible styles could synchronize if the user is creative. An Aikido user might decide it's easier to get the joint lock on the adversary if he's been softened up with a Kickboxer's knee to the face first.

It's also worth considering that training involves a lot of conditioning. The extra DV could be the result of extra strength training, muscle memory, or a quicker strike. If you give them credit for being generally better fighters, it makes some sense.

I can see it stacking up to 3, but that seems like a good place to stop.

~Mike

We totally didn't even catch that. XD I figure yeah, they probably make similar things but for feet.

What is this "-1 per attack against you since your last action" thing? And I have no idea how he compensated for only being a front-line fighter, since I'm pretty sure he took incompetence in every firearm known to man. It doesn't matter now, he's saying he'll be playing a mage instead (This was a back-up character in case he died).

It's a fun little thing that stops the Godzilla v army scenario with shadow runners taking on large groups of low skill people.



Basically it means that if you get shot at, you get a normal defense, you get shot at again, you get normal defense -1, you get shot at on the 6th time, you're at -5 defense.

Now, 6 shots is easy to manage with 3 guards focus firing even basic SA pistols on one runner. Presuming you have a really jacked up Adept, he has maybe 5 reaction. That means that if he wants to act next round (Not do a full defense) he only has 5 dice to defend with. Guards have agi 3, pistols 2, laser sight 1 at worse, so 6 dice if your really scarping the bottom of the barrel for guards.

By the time the last guard fires his 2 bullets he is getting 6 dice against a 0 die defense. That's likely 2 net hits against 0, say a standard heavy pistol, so 5p -1 damage, net hits makes it 7p -1. Adept has lets say 10 armor, dropped to 9 due to AP, and a 5 body, average hits says about 5, so he takes 2s per shot.

Now, that isn't alot, but several of those other bullets had a chance to hit as well, and as soon as he is past those first 3 boxes of stun, he is at a -1 for all his defense rolls, so next time around he will be starting with a pool of 6 instead of 7. If he wants to pull up his pool he has to do a full defense, which burns his next action, and if he has spent all his magic on +DV then he won't have had any left for +IP and 2-3 mall security cops will be able to take him down before he can close to melee.

Sure, he may do a thousand damage when he enters melee and can start kicking ass, but before that he is going to get shot up just trying to close range. And of course this example was with virtually unskilled opponents using mediocre weapons. Turn that into people with 4 agi, 4 weapon skill, a smartlink, and a decent burst/FA weapon? He'd never get a chance to close for melee. Most adepts/sammys compensate for this by having huge numbers of IP, big bad built-in armor, move fast abilities, or other such things so they'll be able to get around the firestorm, but sounds like the adept your talking about will run into trouble when that time comes.

Anyway, just one of those rules that is fun to throw out there against glass cannons and watch them shatter against a small group of mall cops.

Just a note, but where are you getting your starting Dodge Pool from? Typically, Street Sams start with a 8-9 Reaction, not counting any Dodge or specialties (or anything else that might give them additional dice to dodge)... base 8-9, with up to 17 dice going full bore for a Skill 6 and Specialty in Ranged Combat for Dodge...

An appropriate spec'd Physad may only have a Reaction of 6 or so, but adding on his bonuses for Dodge (in a Full Action) gives him almost as much as the sammy (if not more)...

Just Curious is all...

Keep the Faith...

Well, I'm coming from a couple spots. First I'm coming from this being an adept, not a sammy. Second I'm looking at this as the person said with the adept having spent all (most) of his points on +DV, so he would only have the standard high norm of 5. Thirdly, I'm figuring that since he spent all his points on +DV, he didn't have enough left over for +IP, and thus doesn't want to waste his only IP on a turn going into a full defense.

So yeah, if you burn an IP to go full defense, you can generally get an extra 6 dice (4 skill and 2 spec), but I figure that isn't a realistic option for the character because otherwise he wouldn't be able to close on them.

And heck, even if he is going full defense with 5 + 6 = 11 dice, he will still be down to 6 by the time the last shot is taken, which is a reasonable chance of at least getting a graze, and as I said, this is against virtually unskilled people using fairly pathetic armaments.

Also, you point out for me this particular adept's problem. Most sammies/adepts can handle a bunch of firepower being thrown at them, but because this guy has spec'ed so much in the +DV, he is going to have alot of trouble closing on people with firearms, even a somewhat small group of low skill low gear people.

Makes sense, I was just curious...
Thanks

Though as a point... boosting his DV through Martial Arts is pretty easy on the Magic Rating, so he could have a ton of other things assuming a Soft Max of 5... Heck, If critical Strike is not capped (Can't remember, I don't have access to my books right this minute), just 2 points in that will give him +8DV with Unarmed Attacks...

Keep the Faith

Ah. This sounds awful, coming from the perspective of a player. XD I don't GM this group, by the way (I'm the GM for our Mutants and Masterminds game). I can see why Combat Sense is so expensive now... I think I see my friend's character being rather short-lived. :/




I think in this example, the guy is trying to act next round, so he isn't doing Full Defense.

It is not as bad as it sounds though...

No, normal (melee) sammy who runs into a group of mall cops will go full defense while they fire, then use an IP to close, then use his third IP to slaughter/incap 1-2 cops and put another 1-2 in melee range.

Now, if normal (melee) sammy runs into a small squad of trained guys with automatics, then he'll be in trouble, and that is why you have backup, but yeah, I was purposefully picking on people who put too much glass in their cannon (Because in a game with guns, everyone is a glass cannon to some degree)

Agreed

A normal (melee) sam/adept will be running while using full defense for his first IP. Netting him the additional +2 bonus to defense for running. On the second IP he attacks.

Didn't think you could move and use a complex action at the same time... Hmm, guess you can, it is a free action. Still, the point holds that a regular sammy can handle the small group of mall cops.

In my experience, a Sammy is generally capable of handling middle tier groups as well... only at the upper end, in small numbers, does a Sammy deal from a disadvantage...

But it is all good...


Keep the Faith

Well if he had 6 in critical strike we look at a 6 magic phys add. 6 critical strike= 1.5 magic. 2.5 magic for improved reflexes 2 total 4 magic. So maybe a 7 reflexes.

I can see 2 ways to go here if I was making the character.

1: take distance strike for 2. It brings melee attacks into the same ballpark of damage as guns since people only defend with reflexes.
2: killing hands and 3 levels of combat sense. This means physical damage on hands with spirit killing fun and 10 dice for defense on the first shot.

I'd likely go with option 1 since I don't like saving up multiple magic points before I can actually do anything with them.

With only improved reflexes 1 a magic point is saved so either on option 1 add killing hands and 1 level of combat sense or on option 2 add 2 more levels of combat sense.(this only nets 1 defense though since imporved reflexes was helping)

Also the phys add could go 6 points critical strike for 1.5, killing hands for .5 and improved reflexes 3 for 4 total magic spent 6. So 8 dice starting to dodge, 4 actions, and shit tons of damage on a punch.

Oh, is it that cheap? Huh, I must have been thinking of a different power. Yeah, your right, can have those 6 points and still do alot of other things then. Still, the -1 per attack rule is an important thing to keep in mind to give the little guys at least a small chance of non-spontaneous death.

I love melee specialists, but every one of them I've done has always had at least pistols: 4 with a specialization in semi-automatics. Like sniping, melee is a niche role. It is great to have in tight quarters or a close-up brawl, and works well in conjunction with stealth, but it is still a good idea to have at least one ranged skill so that the character isn't helpless or useless the rest of the time.

By the way, combat sense is devastating when combined with one level of counterstrike.

Combat Hardening on a shotgun means you ca have your cake and eat it too!
Blast your way in and play home-run derby with what's left.
The troll bruiser/doctor in my game finally discovered this.

When asked why it took him so long to make the connection, he replied,
"Damn it, Jim! I'm a doctor, not a shotgun wielding maniac!"

Actually like that you can only eat half the cake and keep it.

A rifle butt is a club and does (STR/2 + 1)P AP 0 damage with Reach 1, the Shotgun part is unaffected. A combat ax (blades) with an "underbarrel" AA-16 does (STR/2 + 4)P AP -1 Reach 2 in melee and works as an AA-16 with a magazine capacity of 16. I think that is closer to keeping the cake and eating it too.

Yeah but this method though technically more brutal and efficient makes my head hurt.
Gun swords, gun axes, gun spears might be doable, but they don't fit elegantly into most games.

Speaking of, what are these smart blades spoken of in arsenal?

Underbarrel weapon:
"This mod is generally only available for longarms, machine
guns, and assault cannons. It is also possible to install this system
into melee and other unconventional weapons—popular options
include single-shot weapons installed in parallel guns with
an under-barrel one-shot shotgun barrel and smart swords with
a small pistol in the hilt to fire a bullet along the blade, etc."

The physad in my recently started 4e game went for the parkour-style mobility route.

He took:
1 level Increased Reflexes
Killing Hands
2 levels Critical Strike
Wall Running
4 levels Great Leap
4 levels Freefall
2 levels Penetrating Strike

He took +2 DV worth of Martial Arts bonuses and good ratings in Athletics Group and Infiltration. We've only had a couple of combats so far, but he seems pretty effective at closing the distance with antagonists, no matter the intervening terrain (or elevation, for that matter.) Jumping and wall-running up a two-story building to take out the roof sniper was a pretty fun visual.

He also took some Pistol skill, for the reasons mentioned by an earlier poster.

(For those doing a little math, my game started with 500 BP characters.)

True. This was just an exercise in rule abuse. Just drop the gun(s) and take out your spurs or melee weapons.

I don't know but I'm starting to think about a Monosword with commlink and weapon personality. SOTA Enserric/Lilarcor especially if an AI lives in the node.

I would guess by smart sword it means a sword with a smartgun link in it so the pistol part of the sword can fire automatically without having to put a trigger into the hilt (Which would make it both look awkward and be somewhat difficult to hold.)

Check errata. Martial Arts DV bonuses are capped at 3, Critical strike is capped at level 3, Piercing strike is capped at level 3.

A human physad with 6 strength could easily have 9DV with unarmed. A troll could have 11DV. Add a hardliner and it can get pretty hardcore, but not much worse than using a Katana, which is str/2 + 4 DV, with 1 reach and -1 AP.

A physad's magic should be able to surpass a Katana, so it seems balanced. They can only get 2 dv higher and 2 ap lower than a katana, which does not seem overpowered.

Unless there are errata for SR4A I am not aware of, critical strike is not capped. It's true about the other two though.

Actually it's (STR/2 +3)P for the Katana, but you could use two of those.

Only Kinesics and Power Throw are capped at 3.

Lets take a physad human though, give him magic 6 and a reasonable str 4 , killing hands, elemental strike, critical strike 6, penetrating strike 3, improved reflexes 2 and whatever left over .25 of power point you want. For extra fun, Martial Arts 3.

Str / 2 + 9 - 3AP ( AP halved beforehand by elemental strike if you use an apropriate effect). It's somewhat ridiculous, if amusing, to toss out a punch with 11P -3AP, great for killing spirits as well I'd imagine.

It should be noted there are martial arts that increase the DV of blades as well, you could also easily add in kendo as a martial arts.

/extra points if you take a geas for shouting "it's over 9000!" every time you want to use your critical strike power

I would like to counter with two valid points:
Although, your layout doesn't need the penetration that much.

I am surprised that kendo wasn't in the book for all those street sams running around.

You are correct, I did forget about elemental strike not stacking, but, you don't always have time to take 1 round to activate it.
Also, for as seemingly silly as these numbers approach, it must be remembered that a melee or unarmed attack is a complex action that is much easier to avoid than a gunshot or 10.

And as cool as that sounds. Long burst with a SMG does close to the same damage and with APDS has the critical strike level AP power, the shooter can fire again, can fire at range and cost them 400 nuyen and not all there magic points.

And that's why, as awesome as Splodo Fist is, I'll keep with my Ares Alpha.

True, but it lacks style, omae.

Besides, it's not like you can't do both. Granted, not at the same time but a character can be shooty and punchy. All the investment you need to shoot that well, beyond the actual weapons, is a few points in Automatics, specializing in SMGs or ARs.

The investment required to make a decent melee character is almost obscene compared to how easy it is with firearms. But that's how it should be.

Now I want to make an ambidextrous character who calls their left hand punchy and their right hand shooty, always punching with their left hand and always doing the shooting with their right hand

Shoot. Smash. Chop. Stomp.

Is that like the yak who is missing a finger laughing every time he gives an opponent 'the shocker'?

Side question gents, would you allow the +1 DV on Blades to be applied with Throwing Knives as well? Or are we talking strictly things that stay in your hands?

If you throw it, it becomes a 'thrown weapon' for skill use, like grenades and such but without the scatter.

Agreed, the bonus DV to blades is only when wielding it in a melee fashion. The difference between how to cut with a sword better and throw a knife better is as different as shooting a gun and throwing a punch.

Hehe, and we're back to "punchy" and "shooty".

That's what I thought so too, but I read some chatter talking about that and they were applying the +1 DV Blades to thrown weapons as well.