Two questions came up from last night's game.


The team had an mage following them astrally as they were exiting the area after a run cross country. The team mage was too hurt and drained to just eliminate the other mage. So he tried an all out mana bolt but she fended it off.

Seeing she had a weapon focus, He then dropped out of astral and deactivate any foci.


Would a detect enemies (without looking astral) detect that the enemy mage was still there astrally?
What about a bound spirit?

What if cast on a non mage?


Second Question,

On detect enemies, would a Mall renta cop qualify. He isn't armed. He doesn't want to attack you. If he finds you he will call it in and wait for lonestar to show up. Or a watcher ordered to watch an area and report back when someone tried to enter?

So does the enemy have to be planning to do harm to the target of the spell for them to count as an enemy?

I figure a real security guard on alert looking for an unknown intruder would count just fine since the guard had the intent to harm anyone who was an unknown intruder.

Same for a spotter for fire support/Artillery even through they are not actually attacking the target (they would be looking for the earth shattering KABOOM so that counts as intent to harm).

But what about a real security guard making his rounds? He is looking for unknown intruders and would want to harm any he found, but until he actually knows there are some... He is really just making his rounds looking forward to his soycaf break.


I've done a quick check and didn't see these questions, sorry if I'm covering old ground here.

Thanks all

Due to the planar barrier, for a detect enemies spell to be able to detect an astral threat, the caster would need to be on the Astral Plane. (Step 3 of Targeting Spells, SR4A, p. 183)

For the Detect Enemies, it requires Hostile intent directed at the person specifically. The vigilant guard isn't directing it at the mage specifically, akin to the example of shooting into a crowded space. It would trigger if the guard spotted the mage and had hostile intent, even if the mage couldn't see the guard. (Hiding behind a plant, on an overlooking bridge, etc.)

Detect enemies works like no other spell in the setting, other then the limitation of the planar barrier which bishop has already pointed out it works in whatever way you can sell your GM on.

I have to agree with bishop on both points. It specifies hostile intent directed at the subject. It also specifically points out that someone firing into a crowd is not considered to have hostile intent (Towards the subject) and so would not register.

This means that the spotter wouldn't show up unless he was spotting to hit the subject in particular, no guard of any kind would show up until made aware of the subject, even if the guard was Judge Dread and you just knew he was going to be hostile the moment he saw you. The mall cop would likely -never- show up, because he wouldn't have hostile intent towards the subject.

The two very important parts of the qualification for enemy are 'hostile intent' and 'directed at the subject'. It is also important to mean that if the 'enemy' wasn't hostile to the subject, but instead someone else in the party, they wouldn't show up. (As in the case of an enemy that didn't know about the subject, but only about other party members)

But what constitutes hostile intent?

The mall cop has fingered you for shoplifting. He's gonna get you busted by someone who has more authority or power. He's actively calling the real police on you.

The Johnson who wants you killed when you complete your run? Is he only detected at the moment he gives the order over his comm?

What level of hostility is required?

Well, that would be up to the GM largely, but in my opinion (Not supported by any sort of rule) the mall cop wouldn't be considered hostile towards you even when he is calling in real police for the same reason that you wouldn't necessarily be considered hostile towards a murderer that has broken into your house when you are calling the police (More likely you are scared/frightened).

Now, he likely could make the call in such a way to be hostile, he could also trigger being hostile without actually -doing- anything. Maybe he really really wants to kill you, but doesn't attack because he knows you'll shoot his brains out. He might well still show up on a detect enemy because he is hostile, even if he isn't actively physically doing anything to threaten you.

Similarly if a Johnson goes into a meet with the intention to betray you and have you killed, I'd imagine he'd show up. He is hostile to you, he just hasn't acted on that hostility yet. Now, GMs might not want to use that interpretation because it really messes up the double cross if the mage just does a detect enemy and sees it from the start, or he might want to provide the J with some kind of defense (Maybe he is hiding the hostility deep enough that it doesn't show up)

So if the mall cop calls the police and goes "Oh god! There are people with big ass guns in here, save me!" he shouldn't show up. If he goes "We got some drekers that you need to come kill dead." he just might show up. If he is just doing his job "We have a breach, need you to come investigate." he also won't likely show up because he really isn't being hostile towards you.

The J I figure should show up as far as 'he is hostile' goes, but I figure that is one that would need to be different for the sake of plot.

I tend to agree with you. These types of situations should be discussed with one's GM. Preferably before you take the spell.


Not necessarily. It could make things interesting. Especially if they're used to Johnson's screwing over the team. "Hey, at least we know it up front!" Or, "Look Mr. Johnson, we know you're trying to get us killed. We want double nuyen." Or you can plan on them digging into what's going on, and design the mission around that.

Yeah, you're right, it could be interesting from a plot perspective to let that show up in the Johnson, but I figure that is one of those things which will be much more determined by plot than by normal hostility rules. Though of course players should know this in advance one way or the other (A double crossing J will/won't show up)

Any Johnson worth the Nuyen he's paying you is gonna know, in general, what kinda talent he is hiring. He will likely not allow under ANY circumstances for magic to be active during the meet. And will probably have the means to detect or counter magics.

Seriously, if you discovered that the Johnson you were making deal with, had spells active which could possibly do things such as reading your mind or influencing your behaviour, I'm sure you would take steps to make sure it never happened again.

People are paranoid when it comes to magic, magicians doubly so.

Yeah, but keeping a mage on overwatch for a J meeting (For the J) is both expensive and greatly reduces the deniability of the operation. Not to mention mages are (by fluff) fairly rare (Though by most group standards they are about 50% of the population, but that is another subject entirely) and so the Johnson can't just grab some guy on the street along the way and say "Cast x y and z for me."

Being able to detect and counter magic is rare, so it wouldn't surprise me if the J really doesn't have any means to do so. All the more so because it would be -really- hard to stop a mage walking into the meet without a spell already cast on himself, and if the mage gets all jumpy about having a detect enemies spell being active... well that is as much of a giveaway as the spell itself might give.

Errr the PC's having access to anything that a corporate level johnson doesn't is kind of stupid. You have your small group of misfits to draw on, he has a whole corporation. It's as easy as security mage bob gets told to go astral at this time and this place and to call these people if any spells are cast.

Last I checked the entire point of a corporate Johnson was that the corp didn't support him much so that they could deny him and his actions. Also, I wouldn't call the mage on the team 'access to something' so much as.... well there is a mage there. It isn't like the runners have gone out and hired a mage, they just have one being called to the meet already.

Edit: Also the PCs having access to something the Johnson doesn't is the basis of the relationship. The Johnson doesn't have access to heavy weaponry and illegal 'ware and whatnot, but the PCs come with that standard, no extra charge.

Just to stir the pot.

I agree that there is a reason there is detect life.


So a guard dog smells your scent and is coming to bite you so it shows up.

Security guard walking his rounds nothing.

Security guard hears gun fire (including yours) He has sensed you and has hostile intent towards you.

And the guy firing in to the crowd, would IMHO show if he was actually firing his weapon at targets (picking targets to shoot at) but not if he did a suppressive fire (spray crowd).

Huh? Detect life?

Guessing you meant enemy. Yeah, the dog should show up, the security guard shouldn't in the first example. In the second that is more debatable. He certainly doesn't have hostile intent towards you in particular, and it is even questionable if he has hostile intent at all. Just because a guard hears a gunshot doesn't mean he instantly goes "I'm going to kill whoever shot that." (I'll go into this more in a second)

As for the guy firing into the crowd, yes, he would show up if he was specifically trying to target you. The fact that you are standing in the middle of a crowd doesn't change that. If it is just suppressive fire at the crowd in general, then once again yeah, you're right, not going to show up.

Here is the thing, the spell requires both "Hostile intent" and that it be "Directed at you". I figure hostile intent to mean "Strong desire to cause bodily harm." (Mental/spiritual qualifies as well, just easier to say bodily).

So, the guard hears the gunshot, he first off can't direct anything towards you because he has never met you. At best he has 'the person who shot a gun' to go off of, but I don't think that is defined enough to count as targeting you in particular (Even in cases where it is much more specific "The dirty bastard who killed off my parents and siblings." may or may not trigger 'you' as the target, because the person doesn't know who it actually is they are hostile towards.) Also, a security guard's mindset isn't 'cause bodily harm' it is to call police, it is to figure out what is going on, it is to do alot of other things, but 'bodily harm to whoever shot a gun' isn't likely to be among them (Though a hothead sec guard who dreams of being an action hero and shooting it out with anyone who breaks in might trigger the hostile intent because he -does- really want to shoot someone.)

Now, when he actually sees you, then he will be able to trigger the 'directed at you' portion of the requirements, but he still may not want to shoot you. He may draw his weapon to try and scare you, to get you to back down or surrender, but he won't necessarily have the desire to actually shoot you in mind (This will vary based on the particular guard and the sort of training/orders they are given.) Now, once he -actually- takes a shot he has -definitely- progressed into a desire to cause you harm (Unless he is intentionally missing). Before this there were several times he -might- have triggered the 'desire to do bodily harm' requirement, but this is basically the point where he definitely has.

(most) (modern) police wouldn't show up with a spell like this, because they don't generally want to actually injure anyone they are aprehending, and only a serious hothead or someone who is actually shooting/tasing/beating (But not wrestling) would trigger the spell, because they just want to get cuffs around the person or get him to the ground, they don't want to hurt the person.

This is a spell that the GM has to be careful to not let turn into a 'bad guy radar'.

Also keep in mind that people can get off the list of this spell after they are on it. The sec guard runs out of ammo and starts running for his life, he'll vanish from this spell because he no longer cares about causing any sort of harm to anyone, he is only concerned with trying to get away.

Good points

On the detect life, it is if you want to know where anyone living is, use detect life, if you want to know who is your enemy then use detect enemy.

I have to say if I have someone shooting at me or I think they will shot at me, then I have hostile intent because I'm going to shoot them just as soon as I think they are reaching for their weapons.

I mean if you are scared of someone (and who wouldn't be scared in a firefight), can not run away, and will not let them walk away, then you have to be prepared to do violence.

If you are looking for a fight then you have hostile intent.

I've a feeling most cops feel the same way. If you are facing an armed perp, You get one "Drop your weapon!!!", and after that it is bang bang bang.

It is true, they get a "Drop your weapon!!" and then it is bang bang, but the cop doesn't want 'bang bang', the cop wants 'drop your weapon'. It is only when the perp doesn't drop the weapon and he is forced to fire that he has any intent to actually cause harm. Before that the intent of the gun was basically for deterrence and a means of being prepared. Believe it or not, most people don't -want- to kill others, including cops (Who rarely have to, average of one time firing their weapon per 20 years of service)

For the most part I figure detect life is going to be way more useful to a mage trying to get any kind of intel about a place. I mean you can more or less assume that anyone in a compound you're breaking into is going to be 'not friendly' at best and 'shooting at you' at worse

Agreed.


But people are not binary switches.

The fact that you are heading in to a situation where you might have to kill someone and that you are willing to do so even if you don't want to do so let alone get in a firefight....

And once someone is psyching themselves up mentally for a possible fight and the adrenalin starts pumping I'd say you have hostile intent.


So cop at traffic stop writing a ticket no.

Cop at traffic stop after getting an alert that the driver is wanted and should be considered armed and dangerous... yes.

Hostile Intent is certainly being willing to kill someone if they don't surrender.

And I'd say you would have hostile intent if a security guard hears gunfire and his heading over to his duty station to deal with it.

You have the means for the potential enemy to have intent (the plan is I get to the closest exit on the perimeter and stop them from leaving until the HTR team gets here by any means) against you (Who ever (and any of his friends) is trespassing and shooting that big gun at the company security drones and my coworker).


Could you could even get it electronically. Security Guard is piped vid from a drone of the intruders and moves to intercept. The runner with the detect enemies spell matches the mental picture of the intruders from the vid in the guards mind even if the picture is of poor quality.

Does the guard need to have seen a picture of the runner with the detect enemies spell (no matter how poor of quality) or does being part of a group of intruders count?



You can also have hostile intent without planning to kill someone or even wanting to kill someone.

Mr Johnson plans to drop a dime on the runners once the run is done (Whether the runners are successful or not).

Riot cop gets a rock thrown at him and his unit is planning to advance and break it up....

He is not trying to kill, but he is ready to use his stun baton liberally.


Thanks all

I never said anything at all about killing being required (The main reason I mentioned killing in regards to cops is that cops shoot to kill, not to maim) and even mentioned beating/tazing as being hostile.

This is really a matter for GM interpretation. You're right, human's aren't binary switches, but the spell is. A certain threshold must be crossed for both 'hostile intent' and 'directed at you' to be triggered. Personally I don't think a (real) cop should ever qualify for hostile intent unless he is actually in the process of shooting. 'I will shoot and kill if I need to' is not the same as 'I am trying to injure someone'.

I think that most sec guards are along these lines. They will shoot if it comes down to it, but they likely don't want to (Because there is a good chance that he will get shot).

The Johnson would show up because it is hostile intent, even though he doesn't plan on pulling the trigger himself, he does want the person injured.

I figure a low grade image is fine, I just figure in order for it to be directed at 'you' it needs to be something a little more specific than 'the guy who shot a gun a few seconds ago'.

As for the party... I would think that if he doesn't know that you exist, then he wouldn't show up (not directed at you) but if he knows you exist, then the party likely counts. (Because even though he is trying to shoot super sammy now, he wants to damage the group as a whole. It is just that if he doesn't know you exist, you can't be part of his mental 'group as a whole')

Remember, all these things are basically just my opinion on how things should be interpreted, and is mostly up to what you can convince your GM of. Personally I figure it should be a very limited spell, because otherwise it does the job of detect life as well as just detect enemy.