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TheMadderHatter
Is there some combination of cyberware/hacking that allows a mage to be controlled remotely, as some sort of magical biodrone? In short, is it possible to make a mage drone for an AI to jump into?
Karoline
QUOTE (TheMadderHatter @ Oct 2 2009, 09:03 PM) *
Is there some combination of cyberware/hacking that allows a mage to be controlled remotely, as some sort of magical biodrone? In short, is it possible to make a mage drone for an AI to jump into?


Short answer: No.

Long answer: No way in [insert bad place of your choice].
KCKitsune
QUOTE (TheMadderHatter @ Oct 2 2009, 08:03 PM) *
Is there some combination of cyberware/hacking that allows a mage to be controlled remotely, as some sort of magical biodrone? In short, is it possible to make a mage drone for an AI to jump into?


Well... sorta. You would have to have a cyber commlink with a hot-sim modded sim module. The AI would then have to "condition" the mage with PAB to obey the AI unconditionally. The AI would then "hitch" a ride on the controlled mage and be the evil Jimmy Cricket on his shoulder. The AI would not directly control the mage, but the mage would be a "biodrone" in all but gear.
Karoline
Good luck finding a mage like that though. (It would have to be another character, mages can't be cloned or anything)
TBRMInsanity
You really need to read Augmentation. When it comes to Biodrones (keep in mind biodrones are only an ethical step away from human biodrones), the ability to use paranormal abilities (including magic) is lost via the link. Magic is about feeling and manipulating the mystical energies around you. Something an AI would never understand. They may be able to control a human biodrone or paranormal animal, but they would never be able to use their paranormal abilities.
Mordinvan
If you get an awakened clone, and implant a comlink into it, then run wires into the cerberal and motor cortex, and you should be able to control what it feels and thinks. Now the question is since awakened characters are different because of awakened genes... meaning it is partially biological in nature, and the astral signature is dependent on the body, could the A.I. influence of the mind control the body AND its astral signature to the point where the use of magic is possible? I'm going to say "I hope not" but I honestly feel it may be possible.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 2 2009, 10:31 PM) *
Good luck finding a mage like that though. (It would have to be another character, mages can't be cloned or anything)


Who says that you can't get someone to kidnap the mage and get some cyberdoc to implant the tech for you? Sure your new toy loses some Essence, but what the heck, go for it. cyber.gif
Karoline
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 3 2009, 01:26 AM) *
If you get an awakened clone, and implant a comlink into it, then run wires into the cerberal and motor cortex, and you should be able to control what it feels and thinks. Now the question is since awakened characters are different because of awakened genes... meaning it is partially biological in nature, and the astral signature is dependent on the body, could the A.I. influence of the mind control the body AND its astral signature to the point where the use of magic is possible? I'm going to say "I hope not" but I honestly feel it may be possible.


Except a clone of an awakened isn't awakened itself, and doesn't even have a chance (Or at least no higher chance than any other metahuman) to become awakened.

QUOTE
Who says that you can't get someone to kidnap the mage and get some cyberdoc to implant the tech for you? Sure your new toy loses some Essence, but what the heck, go for it. cyber.gif


Yeah, because everyone knows that mages are super effective after a massive essence loss nyahnyah.gif
Chrysalis
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 3 2009, 01:38 PM) *
Yeah, because everyone knows that mages are super effective after a massive essence loss nyahnyah.gif



Worked for Deus.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 3 2009, 06:38 AM) *
Yeah, because everyone knows that mages are super effective after a massive essence loss nyahnyah.gif


Who says that you have to have massive Essence Loss?

  1. Cyber commlink (6/6) with built-in Hot Sim Module: 0.2 Essence and 19,000 nuyen.gif
  2. Datajack: 0.1 Essence and 500 nuyen.gif


This is a just the bare minimum needed to brainwash the mage to being the perfect puppet.
Karoline
I imagine you need something more than a commlink and a datajack to brainwash and remotely control someone.
Sengir
Unwired has some rules for brainwashing someone via Programmable ASIST Biofeedback (PAB) and several fluff texts also mention "readjusting" captured scientists' loyalities. While full behaviour control is not on the list, you could give the victim memories of how great it is to serve his AI overlord and have resisting thoughts trigger the feeling of ultimate terror and doom and condition a mage into a loyal servant this way.


Jumping into an awakend biodrone will let somebody use magic, however. Even if it did, the "rigger" would have to use his own magic skills while jumped in, and AIs are not exactly good mages wink.gif
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 3 2009, 05:38 AM) *
Except a clone of an awakened isn't awakened itself, and doesn't even have a chance (Or at least no higher chance than any other metahuman) to become awakened.


I think a clone of an awakened has a higher then normal chance of being awakened themselves, but that is beside the point, all you need is an awakened clone. Those DO exist.
Mordinvan
The question comes down to does the mages brain control the use of their magic. If the answer is yes, then the A.I. could pull it off, if the answer is no, its actually something deeper then just the brain, then an A.I. could brainwash a mage and control one that way.
Mordinvan
The question comes down to does the mages brain control the use of their magic. If the answer is yes, then the A.I. could pull it off, if the answer is no, its actually something deeper then just the brain, then an A.I. could brainwash a mage and control one that way.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 3 2009, 02:50 PM) *
The question comes down to does the mages brain control the use of their magic. If the answer is yes, then the A.I. could pull it off, if the answer is no, its actually something deeper then just the brain, then an A.I. could brainwash a mage and control one that way.


Exactly what I was thinking.
TheOOB
Brainwashing would work, but any method of direct control likely wouldn't allow you access to awakened abilities. Considering a spirit possessing a mage can't utilize the mages abilities, I doubt one could do so through tech.

However, mentally breaking down someone, and using cyber eyes/ears and a little voice in their head might allow a sense of control.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Oct 3 2009, 05:46 PM) *
Brainwashing would work, but any method of direct control likely wouldn't allow you access to awakened abilities. Considering a spirit possessing a mage can't utilize the mages abilities, I doubt one could do so through tech.


This may not be the best analogy because a possessing spirit has not influence on brain or any form of nervous system activity. In the above example the brain could have been grown around an A.I. interface, and and as such the interface may completely control brain activity. The only question is complete control of the brain enough to access the bodies supernatural abilities?
TheOOB
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 3 2009, 09:39 PM) *
This may not be the best analogy because a possessing spirit has not influence on brain or any form of nervous system activity. In the above example the brain could have been grown around an A.I. interface, and and as such the interface may completely control brain activity. The only question is complete control of the brain enough to access the bodies supernatural abilities?


No because the brain doesn't control awakened abilities, if it did clones of awakened people would be awakened.
the_real_elwood
So what if you had an adept human biodrone? Would the person rigging the biodrone be able to use the adept's powers, or once someone jumps in do all of the adept powers automatically deactivate? Frankly, while the rules would seem to indicate that you couldn't, having a magician human biodrone is just such a cool idea that I'd allow it anyways. And it's not like this is something you're really going to run in to anyways, so hardly game breaking.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Oct 3 2009, 08:46 PM) *
Brainwashing would work, but any method of direct control likely wouldn't allow you access to awakened abilities. Considering a spirit possessing a mage can't utilize the mages abilities, I doubt one could do so through tech.

However, mentally breaking down someone, and using cyber eyes/ears and a little voice in their head might allow a sense of control.


If that's all you can get then be grateful and just move on! vegm.gif
Mordinvan
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Oct 3 2009, 07:56 PM) *
No because the brain doesn't control awakened abilities, if it did clones of awakened people would be awakened.

Not always. It could be like mad cow. The possibility of being awakened (mad) exists in most members of the species but it occurs at such a low frequency do to rare chance events that if the individual was cloned there is no guarantee their clone would awaken (go mad) just because they did.
Method
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 3 2009, 08:43 PM) *
Not always. It could be like mad cow. The possibility of being awakened (mad) exists in most members of the species but it occurs at such a low frequency do to rare chance events that if the individual was cloned there is no guarantee their clone would awaken (go mad) just because they did.


?? I think you are a little confused about how mad cow disease works.

And its entirely feasible that magic uses parts of the brain that are not under conscious control of the magician.

QUOTE (Augmentation Page 151)
... many magical abilities and senses simply do not translate to biological functions controllable over cybernetic interfaces...
TheOOB
The idea of magic coming from the brain is psionics, and SR is pretty darn clear that magic is not psi powers. The fact that mages who are astrally projecting exist for awhile after their meat body is killed is pretty big proof that it isn't the gray matter that allows for magic, and if technology can control magic, you would see ware that improves magic, but there is none, none at all. Even the gene treatment that restores essence doesn't fix your magic cap.
Mordinvan
Those are some rather good points. That you can as a mage cast without an actual brain. So the brain does not cause magic, but can it influence magic?
Sengir
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 4 2009, 11:39 AM) *
So the brain does not cause magic, but can it influence magic?

If the body did not matter, mages wouldn't have to worry about essence loss wink.gif

But just controlling the body is not enough, there still needs to be some interaction of the soul/spirit/whatever with the mana and this can't be done via technology. And since there is no MOMP (Mana over Matrix Protocol), even an awakened rigger controlling an awakened metahuman body could not use magic over that link.
Ravor
Not really, one of the theories of Essence Loss is that you are "changing" your base nature and thus damaging the Patterns of Magical Energy that make up everything, including the Mage. Said damage gets translated to the Mage's Astral Body as well since photocopying a ripped sheet of paper still shows the echo of the rip.


However with that said, as it has been pointed out, although you can't have a "bio-Mage", it is really fragging easy to simply P-Fix one into being loyal to you and than using implants to mentally transmit your commands. Not totally effective, but close enough.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Oct 4 2009, 11:39 AM) *
Those are some rather good points. That you can as a mage cast without an actual brain. So the brain does not cause magic, but can it influence magic?

Canonically, a crisis of faith can rob you of your magic, so yeah...
Sengir
QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 4 2009, 08:45 PM) *
Not really, one of the theories of Essence Loss is that you are "changing" your base nature and thus damaging the Patterns of Magical Energy that make up everything, including the Mage. Said damage gets translated to the Mage's Astral Body as well since photocopying a ripped sheet of paper still shows the echo of the rip.

Well, I prefer this "astral pattern" theory from Cybertechnology (modifying one's body creates a divergence between the physical body and its astral blueprint, thereby inhibiting the flow of mana), which IMO implies that both the body and the spirit need to fit together to work magic.
But it seems that each player has his own understanding of how Shadowrun magic is supposed to work, which I think is great because it creates a perfect fit between IC and OoC thinking.
darthmord
The persona-fix and/or pavlonian conditioning route would be the best way to achieve 'control' over a mage to make the mage loyal to you. Good luck with accomplishing it.

I'll stand back while you do that.
Sengir
The BEST way would be find some unscrupulous streetmage and use nuyen.gif instead of freaky brainwashing technologies wink.gif

Of course this would be far too ordinary for any self-respecting evil overlord, but effective nevertheless.
Ravor
Meh, once you've bagged the Mage using the method of your choice tagging them with BTL Grade P-Fixes is the easy part. Remember that for all of their freaky powers, Mages go down just as easy as anyone else.
Jay
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Oct 3 2009, 08:30 AM) *
Who says that you have to have massive Essence Loss?

  1. Cyber commlink (6/6) with built-in Hot Sim Module: 0.2 Essence and 19,000 nuyen.gif
  2. Datajack: 0.1 Essence and 500 nuyen.gif


This is a just the bare minimum needed to brainwash the mage to being the perfect puppet.


Based on this gear, and the comment about the cyber eyes and ears, could the AI filter and modify what the mage would see/hear on the fly? Without directly controlling the mage, could it simply replace his surroundings with some that might encourage the mage to cast what it wanted? Or would there be too much lag as the AI generated false images or replaced faces and bodies?

Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Jay @ Oct 5 2009, 06:29 PM) *
Based on this gear, and the comment about the cyber eyes and ears, could the AI filter and modify what the mage would see/hear on the fly? Without directly controlling the mage, could it simply replace his surroundings with some that might encourage the mage to cast what it wanted? Or would there be too much lag as the AI generated false images or replaced faces and bodies?

It's called the Edit program, and you need to spend one Simple Action every IP (why they did that, I have no idea - it makes no sense) to keep up a continuous stream.
Screaming Eagle
QUOTE (Jay @ Oct 5 2009, 12:29 PM) *
Based on this gear, and the comment about the cyber eyes and ears, could the AI filter and modify what the mage would see/hear on the fly? Without directly controlling the mage, could it simply replace his surroundings with some that might encourage the mage to cast what it wanted? Or would there be too much lag as the AI generated false images or replaced faces and bodies?

As I understand the "edit" rules this would be more or less all the AI would be doing under such situations - also the image of the target has been digiatly altered and the mage can no longer "see" the target. Would still work with indirect combat spells but its getting a bit iffy on the direct spells etc al. I'd have to think about the implications...

I can see an AI wanting the total rigging control and being enraged at not being able to get it "Magic can't be hard, look at all these meat-bags doing it!" Personafixing the mage into believing the AI is his god/ dead father talking to him/ Friend Computer might aleviate some of this anger... then again controling an irrational and only partially controled agent though these means might anger the AI even more.
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