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Joe Chummer
Okay, I'll admit it: AR is altogether new to me. After having gone all the way through the 4th ed. rules (and currently working my way through Unwired), there's still something I can't figure out about AR.

All throughout the book, there are pieces of art depicting characters with AR HUDs floating mere inches in front of their faces. Until I got to the Matrix and gear sections, I thought this was what AR was, and that everybody experienced it this way. But from what I can tell, most characters view AR with image links in cybereyes, goggles, or contact lenses, and Technomancers see AR overlapping their vision (when they choose) without the need for any kind of technology. In other words, only the characters themselves can see their own AR layouts, which in a paranoid society, this is probably a good thing. I mean, you probably don't want your teammates knowing when you are talking to your overbearing mother in your head or that you're visiting an embarrassing message board or that you're conducting confidential business. So where do all of the holographic, floating AR HUDs come from? Am I missing something here? And why in the world would a shadowrunner actually use them like that? Wouldn't a security drone looking over their shoulder be able to read the terrible things that are currently showing up on their holographic AR or possibly glean some other kind of intel?

TheOOB
It's mostly just a visual representation of what AR would look like. While it is true that most commlinks come with a holo projector(the dwarf on the cover of the old 4e book is using one), 99& of AR work is done through an image link, which only you can see, unless you've been hacked of course. THe pics are just trying to show what people are seeing through their AR display.
Joe Chummer
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Oct 7 2009, 11:31 PM) *
It's mostly just a visual representation of what AR would look like. While it is true that most commlinks come with a holo projector(the dwarf on the cover of the old 4e book is using one), 99& of AR work is done through an image link, which only you can see, unless you've been hacked of course. THe pics are just trying to show what people are seeing through their AR display.


So basically a holo projector is only useful if you WANT to show someone your AR? Like when you're showing the rest of the team the layout of the target facility or the Johnson called and he wants to talk to ALL of you at the same time?
Dahrken
Even for collective display purpose you can do without by sending the AR infos to their own virtual display. With the right software you can probably have the virtual construct react to other's people physical gestures for interactive display (rotate, scroll, zoom etc..). Teleconferencing can also be done fully virtually, and peoples not connected (legitimately or not...) won't get a clue about your conversation.

An holoprojector retain several advantages over displays completely in AR. You don't need any equipment to see it, and you don't have to feed incoming datas of potentially dubious origin in your personnal network.
Joe Chummer
QUOTE (Dahrken @ Oct 8 2009, 01:05 AM) *
Even for collective display purpose you can do without by sending the AR infos to their own virtual display. With the right software you can probably have the virtual construct react to other's people physical gestures for interactive display (rotate, scroll, zoom etc..). Teleconferencing can also be done fully virtually, and peoples not connected (legitimately or not...) won't get a clue about your conversation.

An holoprojector retain several advantages over displays completely in AR. You don't need any equipment to see it, and you don't have to feed incoming datas of potentially dubious origin in your personnal network.


I'm assuming most holoprojected ARs are interfaced with using AR gloves?

Also, how exactly does a skinlink work? I know it has something to do with AR interfacing, but I didn't quite get what its purpose is from the item description.
Dahrken
Probably, because it's easier that way. But you can also work with video inputs and image recognition or some kind ov volumetric scanner. It's a bit heavier on the processing side, but the user don't need any extra equipment.

A skinlink is simply a different way to connect something to you personnal network. Instead of short-range radio transmissions (which can be detected, spoofed...), you use the body of the user and it's electrical field as a conductor to exchange informations, think wifi compared to power line communication.

An item equiped with the option can talk to all the other item also equiped you carry on you or touch. For exemple two peoples with skinlink-enabled comlinks can exchange datas while shaking hands without any radio exchange that could be intercepted by an observer.
Degausser
What the OP is talking about is actually two different things.

Your AR and your personal computer.

AR is stuff that is actively broadcast to you computer, where as your "HUD" is kinda like how your computer is set up. Think about it thusly:

Let's say that you have a laptop that is on. You get to are wireless hotspot, and your laptop connects to the internet. Now, the gateway for this hotspot might direct you to a "Plesentville Mall" webpage first. Your computer is still your computer, you can have your SPAM filter and your bookmarks and your browser configured, but the "welcome to Plesentville Mall" web page is kinda like AR. It might show you a map of the mall, or what stores have sales, or whatnot. Now, instead of a webpage, think of it as floating billboards that you can see if you put on your AR glasses.
Joe Chummer
QUOTE (Degausser @ Oct 8 2009, 03:53 AM) *
What the OP is talking about is actually two different things.

Your AR and your personal computer.

AR is stuff that is actively broadcast to you computer, where as your "HUD" is kinda like how your computer is set up. Think about it thusly:

Let's say that you have a laptop that is on. You get to are wireless hotspot, and your laptop connects to the internet. Now, the gateway for this hotspot might direct you to a "Plesentville Mall" webpage first. Your computer is still your computer, you can have your SPAM filter and your bookmarks and your browser configured, but the "welcome to Plesentville Mall" web page is kinda like AR. It might show you a map of the mall, or what stores have sales, or whatnot. Now, instead of a webpage, think of it as floating billboards that you can see if you put on your AR glasses.


The "Pleasantville Mall" page/map/etc. would be an AR Object. AR is anything that overlaps the user's natural field of vision, be it data from your commlink, visual feedback your smartlink system, AROs, AREs, etc. If you take off your AR goggles or contact lenses, you're not going to see anything AR-related (including your "HUD") unless you switch over to your holo projector (assuming you have one) or actually look on the screen of your commlink (assuming it even has a screen; I don't think ear-jewelry 'links would have screens). Anything that disappears when you remove or disable your AR viewing appliance qualifies as "AR." The only difference between the HUD and mall map is the HUD is set up to display whatever AROs you want in whatever arrangement you want (be it a phone call, a message board, a running trace), whereas the mall-based ARO will pop up and behave how it is programmed, and might move around in your field of vision at a fixed spatial point, especially if the ARO is attached to a physical location in the mall (like the Customer Service desk, for example.) or is an RFID tag on a physical object.

So in a sense you're right: a user's "HUD" is set however you want it. But what you're forgetting is the HUD itself is also comprised of various AR Objects.
ShadowPavement
I had the same thoughts when I first read about AR and seeing the pics of AR. So I came up with a reason that someone might be able to see another Persons AR.

It is a systems that's been built into comlinks so that you can tell when someone using AR. When you get within a certain range of someone actively using AR then your own AR will display the general shapes of what the other person's AR screens. You couldn't look over their shoulder and see what they were reading or anything, but it's enough for you to realize that someone is in the middle of a conversation with someone else, or reading a book, or checking their e-mail. It's a tool to facilitate matrix etiquette, just like cell phone etiquette today. That way you can make sure you wait until they're done their call to start talking to them.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Dahrken @ Oct 8 2009, 01:05 AM) *
A holoprojector retain several advantages over displays completely in AR. You don't need any equipment to see it, and you don't have to feed incoming datas of potentially dubious origin in your personnal network.

Or you have the magician in your group with three levels of Gremlins and Incompetent(Computer) who goes through a cheap throw-away commlink per week because they always fritz out on him.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Degausser @ Oct 8 2009, 09:53 AM) *
What the OP is talking about is actually two different things.

Your AR and your personal computer.

AR is stuff that is actively broadcast to you computer, where as your "HUD" is kinda like how your computer is set up.

Wrong.

AR is an approach to displaying information. The bit where your computer overlays digitally-generated imagery onto the real world in a manner where it appears to have some kind of physical position, that's AR. It doesn't cease to be AR because the origin is a local program. Those HUDs are AR HUDs.

The shared AR environment thing is a platform that uses AR, but also uses a variety of synchronisation mechanisms to ensure the same things end up in different peoples' systems. Seattle merchants sell a number of AR Skinning programs for individuals to use. You can purchase an AR program that replaces certain object with a variety of other things, or edits them out entirely. Running these programs does not apply these effects to other people, therefore your definition is incorrect.

QUOTE (ShadowPavement @ Oct 8 2009, 07:10 PM) *
I had the same thoughts when I first read about AR and seeing the pics of AR. So I came up with a reason that someone might be able to see another Persons AR.

It is a systems that's been built into comlinks so that you can tell when someone using AR. When you get within a certain range of someone actively using AR then your own AR will display the general shapes of what the other person's AR screens. You couldn't look over their shoulder and see what they were reading or anything, but it's enough for you to realize that someone is in the middle of a conversation with someone else, or reading a book, or checking their e-mail. It's a tool to facilitate matrix etiquette, just like cell phone etiquette today. That way you can make sure you wait until they're done their call to start talking to them.


Actually, it's a case of artistic non-literalism. The artists wanted to show you as much AR as possible, to demonstrate that everyone has it - that AR is ubiquitous in the population.

You can't see AR windows, as evidenced by the mention of people talking to themselves whilst walking down the street no longer being considered weird, or a sign of insanity. If your AR reflected theirs, then this wouldn't be mentioned since the windows would be visible and this would present an obvious cause.
Joe Chummer
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Oct 8 2009, 11:06 PM) *
You can't see AR windows, as evidenced by the mention of people talking to themselves whilst walking down the street no longer being considered weird, or a sign of insanity.


But I'm assuming you can still see someone's AR if their using a holoprojector to see all of their AROs and are using voice commands or tactile-feedback AR gloves to interface with it?

The idea of holoprojected AR that's visible to others makes me think of the movie Minority Report where he's manipulating the screens, or of the computer systems they used in Zion with the holographic keyboards. What it does NOT make me think of are the VR gloves used in Johnny Mnemonic, cos those are just silly.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Joe Chummer @ Oct 9 2009, 05:29 AM) *
But I'm assuming you can still see someone's AR if their using a holoprojector to see all of their AROs and are using voice commands or tactile-feedback AR gloves to interface with it?

The idea of holoprojected AR that's visible to others makes me think of the movie Minority Report where he's manipulating the screens, or of the computer systems they used in Zion with the holographic keyboards. What it does NOT make me think of are the VR gloves used in Johnny Mnemonic, cos those are just silly.

Holoprojected stuff is visible, of course. I meant that the mention of people walking down the street speaking to themselves heavily implies the similarity between vocal chat in an AR chat program and a schizophrenic muttering to themselves - or even from a Mage casting a spell. If the AR windows were visible from outside the system generating them then there would be a difference between the two since a chat program would have a distinctive mode of operation.

To extend my above line of thinking, any kind of window display outside the originating system is a potential security hazard as you'd be able to determine what kinds of programs are in use by the window arrangements, and also observe AR keyboard keystrokes. Since AR is in use within public spaces more regularly, this is obviously a reasonable security objection.

I am glad to say that I have never seen Johnny Mnemonic.
Joe Chummer
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Oct 9 2009, 12:30 AM) *
I am glad to say that I have never seen Johnny Mnemonic.


If you can get past the inherent cheesiness of the presentation, it's a pretty good cyberpunk noir story.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Joe Chummer @ Oct 9 2009, 06:29 AM) *
What it does NOT make me think of are the VR gloves used in Johnny Mnemonic, cos those are just silly.
The thing is, that hacking scene in JM is exactly how an AR glove-user would look to a bystander - some guy quasi-physically interacting with stuff only he can see.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Joe Chummer @ Oct 7 2009, 10:21 PM) *
So where do all of the holographic, floating AR HUDs come from? Am I missing something here? And why in the world would a shadowrunner actually use them like that? Wouldn't a security drone looking over their shoulder be able to read the terrible things that are currently showing up on their holographic AR or possibly glean some other kind of intel?


It took me a bit to realize this, but it makes sense when you think about it. In an artistic representation, they show the cybernetic interface so you can get a feel for cyberpunk! and all that.

What actually happens is its only the character who can see their own hud. With a sim unit. Yes, most people use glasses and shades or even cybereyes, but a sim units works even better. Here's why. A sim module lets you access full VR, but its also capable of running in AR mode. It doesn't magically shut off when you change the interface, unless you do that specifically.

QUOTE (The Big Rulebook)
Sim Module: The sim module is an interface device that controls the simsense experience. It translates computer signals (simsense data) into neural signals, allowing the user to directly experience simsense programs, augmented and virtual reality. A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc).


Emphasis mine. So if you have a sim unit, you have this wonderful, glorious, full-body interactive hud RIGHT into your brain. Which is really, really handy if you want to enjoy a full blown hi-res movie, instead of watching it like, on your contacts. Or even draw moustaches on the faces of everyone you meet.
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