Looking for a sanity check chummers. back in SR3 days it was possible for Adepts to break racially modified limits(such as humans boosting past 9 on a stat) but they paid for that attribute boost with deadly drain. is buffing past max racial modified limit still possible in SR4?

Thanks in advance.

The only people who can break that limit, i think, are possessed characters, characters in a military armor (with + to strength) and (if your GM allows it) people who redline their cyberlimbs.

I myself don't like hard caps for ANY attributes and skills... but hey... my group somehow seems comfortable with the rules. (sigh)

yeah I'm trying to migrate a SR3 Physad to SR4 as one of my often used recurring NPC's in my gameworld, and well in SR3 he had attribute boost capable of launching him to 16 Str and 18 Bod from whatever the Giant Racial maxes were at the time. I don't really want to break RAW just for this character so I'm trying to keep things in line with what players would acknowledge as the physics of the campaign world.

The Genetic Optimization treatment from Augmentation (p.89) acts like and is cumulative with Exceptional Attribute and lets you put another point to the max natural and potentially augmented values of an attribute. The attribute points still has to be purchased somehow so this gets expensive fast.

While we're on the topic of Attribute Boost, I could never find in SR4 where it said what kind of action Att Boost is. Is it a free action, a simple action, a complex action, an interrupt action?

Is it a reflexive thing, or does a guy have to clench his fists and scream for ten minutes all anime style? If it's the latter, what does the scouter say about his power level?

It's a Simple Action per attribute boosted. So if you want to boost both Strength and Agility, you need to spend two Simple Actions. It wasn't in the SR4 BBB, if I recall correctly. I think it's in the SR4 BBB Errata (but not yet in the SR4A errata, I think). Sorry, too lazy to track down a page number now, but I am 100% sure about the Simple Action as it is a power that my main character has.

No, mages using the Increase [attribute] spells can also exceed augmented max (just be aware that the force of the casting must exceed the augmented value of the attribute).

I don't see anything in SR4a which limits the adept power to augmented cap either. In fact, it's the closest thing I can see in adept form to casting the spell.

Just remember the adept power cannot be used with any other stat augmentation, w/ the exception of improved physical attribute (which I've always found kinda meh anyhow... lets see, we're going to buy magic from 7->8 so we can enhance agility from 6->7 (costly in karma). Most adepts will just get the bioware muscle toner and be done with it. So that's the primary reason I don't see a problem with it. (that and you get a mystic adept... w/ a power focus... attribute boost becomes a viable option when you can toss say 8 or 9 dice on the boost for only a single attribute rating point).

You're taking it wrong. The default rule is that the augmented maximum equals the natural maximum times 1.5, rounded down, and this maximum applies to both ware, adept powers and magic. If anything does not state that it bypasses this limit, then it does not. The only exception I found is redlining.

Millspec armors are not really an exception to this rule since they are not cyberware. Per RAW, drugs are not subject to the cap either. Possessed vessels and genetic imrovements are subject to the cap, but they add to the natural attribute so they increase it.

IT'S OVER 9000!

SR3 is drastically different than SR4. In SR3, you started out with a maximum of base 6 in an Attribute, and could eventually get it up to 9 - without any augmentations. In SR4, that base 6 is the hard maximum, and augmentation can only get it up to 9. The text for Attribute Boost specifically states: "No attribute may be boosted past its maximum augmented value (see p. 62)."

However, if you get the exceptional attribute quality, and get SURGE and take metagenetic improvement (attribute), then you can raise your maximum to 8, and your augmented maximum to 12. There is the transgenic option, too, but that would probably not work in conjunction with attribute boost.

Keep in mind that attributes and skills both cap lower in SR4, so an attribute or skill that would be "meh" in SR3 is actually pretty damn powerful.

Well I finally cracked open my SR4a book today while waiting for the adepts to figure out what they were going to do.

Right under attribute boost power it states cannot raise over augmented max.

The spell does not say this though, it only says that it's limited by force. Not saying it's unreasonable to either let it ride higher or cap it at augmented max, just unsure what RAW actually is at the moment. I can see it going either way.

The possession stuff is just a real mess in some ways, because there is some really old outdated stuff in an old FAQ which hasn't been updated in ages (and also because in some cases it says the opposite of what the rules say... if that's the case, it should be errata, not FAQ. My opinion is if you're going to cap one, you should cap them all. If going the other way, then attribute boost, spell, and possession should all be treated equally.

I have to agree with Falconer in that if you are capping, everything should be capped for game balance sake...

The problem with Possession might the balance with Materialization. Maybe the devs thought: Materialization spirits have their attributes raise with their Force, why should Possession spirits be capped?

Possession looks much more trendy than Materialization on the forum, so maybe this was not a good idea.

By the way, I didn't find anything that states cyberware augmentations are capped. Is there anything more than the general rule on page 68 about that?

The only way for any character to go beyond their racial hard caps is through augmentation of some sort, so there is no need for any addditional material... page 68 should cover it all...

At least in theory...

Keep the Faith

Soory, it was not as clear as I thought. I meant that I found nothing more than page 68 that prevents cyberware to exceed the augmented cap.

My point is: if there is nothing else, as we all agree that cyberware is capped, it means that the page 68 applies. If it applies to ware, then it also applies to magic.

Unless specifically stated otherwise, everything (except Drugs, apparently - this really should not be the case) is limited by the augmented maximums.

This includes the Increase [Attribute] spells.

Actually, I like that. It makes everybody vulnerable to drugs. No matter how awesome you already are, you can always get that little extra edge if you are willing to pay the price. I prefer that to the interpretation of drugs as the poor man's choice who cannot afford cyberware.

Actually, combat drugs letting you go over the augmented limit kind of makes sense, for the same reason that redlining a cyberlimb makes sense. Drugs are like redlining your meat body. In both cases, you go over the normal augmented maximum by bypassing your body's failsafes against injuring yourself. Both drugs and redlining a cyberlimb are temporary boosts, and both cause harm to the character doing it.

I think the main reason it is so trendy isn't just because a force 6 possession spirit is more powerful than a force 6 materialized spirit (Which it is if it is in a decent body), but because it makes the caster much more powerful, as opposed to summoning up a powerful ally. Basically it is a personal glory vs staged glory. Sure, you summoned the materialized spirit, but the materialized spirit did all the work (In the mind of the ego), whereas with the possession, the fact that the spirit was the only thing stopping you becoming swiss cheese doesn't really matter because it was you out there doing stuff (once again in the mind of the ego).

Good old American cops/firefighters are twice(or is it three times?) as likely to die in a crises situation because of the hero complex that they have over those in other nations.

I can't believe I missed the spot in the RAW that attribute boost is limited by the Augmented Max. guess I'm chewing shoe leather tonight. thanks guys, I agree that most everything should have hardcaps outside of redlining/drugs, since those have their own dangerous drawbacks. guess the big scary giant physad isn't as big and scary as he used to be anymore, but on the other hand it keeps my players from doing the same thing to me