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Warlordtheft
I am tkaing this from another thread regarding spells and drain in the astral.

For me there are purposees to both astral combat and spell casting.

Astrall Combat-no drain.
Spell casting-drain.

Astral combat-less damage.
SPell casting-more damage=more drain.

Astral combat:can use weapon foci.
Spell casting: can use foci for spell casting.

Astral Combat:No counterspelling
Spell casting: No defense other than will + counterspelling.

Now-depending on your opponent, you may want to do either. If your oppoenent has little astral combat but a high counterspelling, go with astral combat. If the reverse is true, you go with a spell. In a long fight (more than a couple of cobat turns), astral combat is more advantageous as there the longer the fight, the higher the likelyhood of a drain.
Dakka Dakka
You forgot one distinction:

Spell casting-range as visibility permits
Astral Combat-range as melee combat

@Drain: a Force 11 still is only 4P drain. Unless the opponent has lots of counterspelling it should take care of him.
Ravor
Aye, the only real way that Astral Combat is viable is in Mana Ebbs and such where spellcasting is harder than normal.

This is why I personally increase the range os Astral Combat to LOS, up the drain while in Astral, ect...
Thanee
As a houserule we have upped the Drain for overcasting significantly (also for other magic activities, like summoning).

Drain is Force - Magic + Magic/2 (round down) when overcasting (otherwise the standard Force/2 (rounded down)).

Essentially, you halve the Force only up to your Magic Rating, everything beyond is counted full.

Also, when you resist physical Drain, you have to resist the full Drain Value twice, once as physical and once as stun.

Works nicely, IMHO, to keep Magic within reason (no flinging Force 11 Stunbolts left and right). smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
Dakka Dakka
I find that houserule unnecessary. Do you restrict streetsams, adepts hackers and riggers similarly? What about the mage who uses a focus, specialization and a mentor spirit to increase his dice pool and thus his net hits? Do you further penalize mages for being good at their job by using the IMHO stupid rule about increased damage of direct combat spells?

BTW you do know that drain for summoning is not based on Force but on the hits of the summoned spirit, right?
Ravor
Meh, that is one of the better changes that they introduced and the only "stupidity" about it was when the devs backtracked and made it optional instead of default.

Magic is not and has never been meant to be the be-all end-all of the Sixth World.
Thanee
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 15 2009, 06:11 PM) *
I find that houserule unnecessary.


Noone forces you to use it. wink.gif

QUOTE
Do you restrict streetsams, adepts hackers and riggers similarly?


No, they have enough restrictions as it is.

Besides, the 'restriction' is purely for overcasting. Everything up to the Magic Rating works just fine. Overcasting is simply too easy (IMHO, of course).

QUOTE
What about the mage who uses a focus, specialization and a mentor spirit to increase his dice pool and thus his net hits?


Hits are limited to Force.

QUOTE
Do you further penalize mages for being good at their job...


They are not prevented at all from being good at their job.

QUOTE
...by using the IMHO stupid rule about increased damage of direct combat spells?


I'm not sure, what you mean?

QUOTE
BTW you do know that drain for summoning is not based on Force but on the hits of the summoned spirit, right?


Yes. But that doesn't change the part about double Drain when summoning beyond one's Magic Rating.

Bye
Thanee
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 15 2009, 07:36 PM) *
Noone forces you to use it. wink.gif
I know and i won't wink.gif



QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 15 2009, 07:36 PM) *
No, they have enough restrictions as it is.
Hmm so you have no problem with the adept shooting two long bursts with two SMGs at a DP of around 20, and no visibility modifiers in most situations, or look up the pornomancer somewhere on this forum, or take the rigger with his drone army. Yes the PCs are powerful, but not only the spellcaster. so a nerf for this class is unnecessary IMHO

QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 15 2009, 07:36 PM) *
Besides, the 'restriction' is purely for overcasting. Everything up to the Magic Rating works just fine. Overcasting is simply too easy (IMHO, of course).
What you are actually saying is you don't like overcasting and soaking all the drain. Depending on the type of spell this isn't even easy without the houserule



QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 15 2009, 07:36 PM) *
Hits are limited to Force.
True, but to consistently get more than 5 (which is the Magic Attribute for most starting characters) you'd have to have a dice pool of 15 or more. To get there you need some sort of Bonus anyway.



QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 15 2009, 07:36 PM) *
They are not prevented at all from being good at their job.
With a OR of 5+ to affect a device you most starting characters need to overcast. Penalizing for affecting the device at all is preventing them to do their job for mr



QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 15 2009, 07:36 PM) *
I'm not sure, what you mean?
The rule in SR4A to increase the drain of direct combat spells by one for each hit used to increase damage.



QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 15 2009, 07:36 PM) *
Yes. But that doesn't change the part about double Drain when summoning beyond one's Magic Rating.
I forgot about that.
Thanee
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 15 2009, 08:52 PM) *
Hmm so you have no problem with the adept shooting two long bursts with two SMGs at a DP of around 20, and no visibility modifiers in most situations, or look up the pornomancer somewhere on this forum, ...


If that is your foundation of an average character, I can certainly see where the differences are coming from. smile.gif

QUOTE
The rule in SR4A to increase the drain of direct combat spells by one for each hit used to increase damage.


No, that houserule is pre SR4A, of course. Havn't really read it yet, so I'm only half-aware of the changes.

But I do agree, that this is a weird rule.

Bye
Thanee
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 15 2009, 10:48 PM) *
If that is your foundation of an average character, I can certainly see where the differences are coming from. smile.gif
That is not an average character, as most shadowrunners are not average, but a part of a character that can easily be built with 400BP. AGI 5 (40BP), Automatics(SMG) 5(+2) (22BP), Ambidexterity (5 BP) Adept (5BP), Magic 2 (10BP), Restricted Gear (5BP), 40000 (8 BP) for a total of 95 BP

Adept Power: Improved Automatics 2(1 PP)

Gear: Muscle Toner 4( 32000), 2 x modded Ingram Smartgun X with Gas Vent 3, Underbarrel Weight, Personalized Grip (2 x 1175), Contact Lenses with Image Link, Smartlink, Flare Compensation (725), Glasses with Low-Light vision, Thermographic Vision, Image Enhancement 3, Image Magnification (700) add ammo for up to 4225

AGI 5(9) + Automatics(SMG) 5(7)(+2) + 2 Smartlink = 20

So the character shoots one long burst with the Smartgun in his one hand, switches the linked device to the other gun and shoots another long burst with the one in the other hand, eacht with a dice pool of 20 since each weapon has 5 points of recoil compensation.

If you take only half as much ammo and add an Improved Range Finder to the weapons(2 x 1000), range penalties only occur beyond 40m instead of 10.

This is far from being maxed out and still this character can easily kill without risking to hurt himself in the action. Replace Automatics(SMG) with Heavy Weapons(Grenade Launcher) and the smartguns with MGL-6s with airburst links and you even get an area effect.

[Edit]Added the Ambidexterity quality and fixed the adept power and the DP in the text. the character is only supposed to have Improved Automatics 2 and Automatics 5 not 6.[/Edit]
Ravor
Sure, but remember, I believe that the devs were smoking crack when they wrote up the char gen rules as compared to the fluff so saying that something is possible using RAW per char gen doesn't really hold water with me, although I'm sure that it does with others. cyber.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 15 2009, 10:36 AM) *
Yes. But that doesn't change the part about double Drain when summoning beyond one's Magic Rating.

Bye
Thanee



Excuse Me... What double drain for exceeding the magic rating?
When you summon over you magic rating, Drain goes from being Stun to being Physical... it does not double...

What the heck are you talking about here?
Thanee
About my post above. wink.gif

Bye
Thanee
Thanee
About my post above. wink.gif

Bye
Thanee

P.S. What's up with these double posts... 2nd time already... biggrin.gif
Dragnar
I've no intention to join the argument, I just have a small nit to pick: "Force - Magic + Magic/2"? What? Math called, it wants you to know you can constrict to "Force - Magic/2" instead...
Thanee
Yeah, I know, you have to round different then, however.

Also, the less condensed formula more clearly shows the idea.

Bye
Thanee
Dakka Dakka
What I think she actually wanted to write is DV=(if(Force>Magic;(Force/2)+Force-Magic;Force/2))+spell specific drain modifier If(Force>Magic;P+S;S)
Thanee
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 16 2009, 12:30 PM) *
What I think she actually wanted to write is DV=(if(Force>Magic;(Force/2)+Force-Magic;Force/2))+spell specific drain modifier If(Force>Magic;P+S;S)


Well, no, I wrote what I wanted to write. But it's essentially the same (just one minor typo in your formula). wink.gif

DV=(if(Force>Magic;(Magic/2)+Force-Magic;Force/2))+spell specific drain modifier If(Force>Magic;P+S;S)

Bye
Thanee

P.S. Just noticed your post above, must have missed that...

Can you even fire 2 Long Bursts in one phase (except with those HV weapons)? I think not.
Also you seem to have missed the off-hand penalty (and why is the dp 22 when you add it up to 20 (and shouldn't the Adept power only be at level 2)?).
And... saying that character is far from being maxed out (assuming you refer to his ability to shoot automatics) is quite an understatement, isn't it? wink.gif

But all that isn't the point... really. There are a lot more things to consider (like how easy it is to 'conceal' your F11 Stun Bolt, for starters, or how it is actually possible to defend against 20dp firearm attacks, but not nearly as 'easy' to defend against direct combat spells, which can also have a 20dp before Edge or Initiation (cue Binding or Foci), or how you actually have to max-out a character to shoot that well, while pretty much any mage with a decent Magic Rating can throw F11 Stun Bolts left and right). smile.gif

Besides, if you have a different view on these matters, that's cool. No need to convince anyone who is perfectly happy with how things are. smile.gif
Not saying this is better. Just saying this is how I like it (even when playing a mage) and how we play it. smile.gif
Dakka Dakka
Sorry but I can't find my alleged typo. Both formulae are the same as far as I can tell.
QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 16 2009, 12:37 PM) *
Can you even fire 2 Long Bursts in one phase (except with those HV weapons)? I think not.
A weapon can only fire a short and a long burst in an action phase. But nothing prevents you from firing one long burst with each weapon.
QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 16 2009, 12:37 PM) *
Also you seem to have missed the off-hand penalty.
Woops forgot to write down Ambidexterity for 5BP, it is included in the total though.
QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 16 2009, 12:37 PM) *
And... saying that character is from from maxed out is quite an understatement, isn't it? wink.gif
Well you could change the race for more AGI, you could increase the skill to 6 or 7 with aptitude, enabling you to take Improved Automatics 3, then throw in genetic optimization and surge, add a reflex recorder and your closer to a dice pool of 30 than 20. I have not checked if all of the options work at CharGen

QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 16 2009, 12:37 PM) *
But all that isn't the point... really. There are a lot more things to consider (like how easy it is to 'conceal' your F11 Stun Bolt, for starters). smile.gif
Well casting any Force 11 Spell is blatantly obvious. The only advantage is that you don't have to carry it around. But because of fear of mages in the setting a mage license will probably raise more eyebrows than a license for SMGs especially if they are loaded with SnS.
Thanee
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 16 2009, 12:43 PM) *
Sorry but I can't find my alleged typo. Both formulae are the same as far as I can tell.


Magic/2 not Force/2

QUOTE
Woops forgot to write down Ambidexterity for 5BP, it is included in the total though.


Fair enough. smile.gif

QUOTE
A weapon can only fire a short and a long burst in an action phase. But nothing prevents you from firing one long burst with each weapon.


Is that so? I don't really see (havn't looked superclosely, though) that the burst limit is per weapon. Always thought it was per character.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. I was mostly refering to the far from in far from being maxed out. Sure there is some room left, but that's not a whole lot. wink.gif

Besides, if you have a different view on these matters, that's cool. No need to convince anyone who is perfectly happy with how things are.
Not saying this is better. Just saying this is how I like it (even when playing a mage) and how we play it. smile.gif
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 16 2009, 01:04 PM) *
Magic/2 not Force/2
Woops. Of course it's Force

QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 16 2009, 01:04 PM) *
Is that so? I don't really see (havn't looked superclosely, though) that the burst limit is per weapon.
I was sure it was per weapon but I can't find it right now. Two short burst of SnS should be enough to down most guards as well.

QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 16 2009, 01:04 PM) *
P.S. I was mostly refering to the far from in far from being maxed out. Sure there is some room left, but that's not a whole lot. wink.gif
Well how far it is to the theoretical maximum is debatable an a 25% increase to me is significant, but I wanted to show that with a smaller investment in BP another character type can be similarly deadly. Thus mages need not be singled out for nerfing.
Thanee
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 16 2009, 01:21 PM) *
Woops. Of course it's Force


Noooo! The other way around. It's Magic/2 that is added to the Force that goes beyond Magic (F-M + M/2)! biggrin.gif rotfl.gif grinbig.gif wink.gif wink.gif wink.gif

Just compare with the corrected formula I posted right below there in my reply, where I pointed it out.

QUOTE
I was sure it was per weapon but I can't find it right now. Two short burst of SnS should be enough to down most guards as well.


Yeah, you don't need nearly as much to down a typical security guard.

QUOTE
Well how far it is to the theoretical maximum is debatable an a 25% increase to me is significant, but I wanted to show that with a smaller investment in BP another character type can be similarly deadly. Thus mages need not be singled out for nerfing.


Yeah, but that alone isn't the point. It's a more complex subject.

Anyways, see edit above. smile.gif

Bye
Thanee
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