How are things transported in 2072? Especially near Seattle.

I'm working on building a Hooding run for my players where they have to hijack a truck transporting RFID tags which will be stuck in a grid-like pattern around the Barrens to provide an echoing Matrix uplink (similar to making it snow toasters). However, it occurs to me that it might be good to know what kinds of folks might ship product via an 18-wheeler? How accurate is the Mad Max image I've got in my mind?

I imagine that with few exceptions, shipping varies little from current standards-trucking would benefit from unmanned drones, and remote control vehicles. Convoys that traveled any distance would likely be unmanned, where as short hops around the city would likely still be cheaper to send via manned vehicles. Weak points like grid guide, or autopilots make for happy Shadowrunners.

Zeppelins can add a level of difficulty, as long as you have a supply of handwavium to explain why anyone with any sense would ship anything via Zeppelin. (They do make great settings for exclusive restaurants, or meeting places. However it is, in theory, certainly possible to ship cargo via Zeppelins. (I imagine a long train of massive balloons daisy chained to each other, transporting nonperishable goods like a great herd of slow whales.)

Hover vehicles could see increased use. Especially in a port city like Seattle.

I totally forgot the important words "port city." Much obliged.

The Seattle 2072 book actually has a handy little entry on this. Also, "Born to Run" had a hijack mission in it, so there is a good amount of circumstantial evidence that shipping via 18-wheeler is at least somewhat common practice. That being said, the shipments will be actively tracked and have one or two escorts probably. I'd just make an armed group in an SUV riding scout and have a set in response time for security to arrive via helo or other.

Remember, security is directly proportional to sensitivity and expense.

Why not have a rigger in a variation of a Roadmaster running the 18 wheelers as drones with a crew of 4-5 armed security riding along, all with combat bike skills and able to launch armed bikes from the Roadmaster? The rigger could be controlling a high number of trucks and could also have a few small combat drones to launch in case of an all out attack. Obviously the make-up and number could vary depending on the value of the cargo being transported and hte area it is being transported through. For particularly valuable cargo there might be mage support as well.

Running as security for these wagon trains would also be potential jobs/experience for Runners. Really not too far removed from the classic D&D scenario: You and your party are hired by a merchant to guard his caravan from point A to point B. Your pay is X amount and any loot you acquire from defeated attackers.

Vlad

Cost.

Why not just take your chances, assume you'll lose a few and still make money hand over fist? The losses can be written off and claimed under insurance. Much like today's trucking industry.

A job like what you're describing may make a good Shadowrun, but it's the exception not the rule.

Because you wouldn't be losing "a few." If the trucks aren't armed and defended, you'd be losing anything that the go-gangs would want: tech, food, clothing... What's gonna stop them out there on those deserted, unsafe highways? Your friendly highway trooper? Some sheriff? I don't think 2072 highways are necessarily quite Mad Max, but it's gotta be up there in the lawless levels. As far as cost goes, how much would it cost to run a crew of 6 or so, pay them as decent level security for escorting 12-15 or more trucks? You are paying one rigger and a few guys instead of 15 truckers and the "cost of protection" is passed along to the consumer as it always is. Insurance isn't going to pay off. Insurance only "works" if the number of incidents is less than the actual pay in from your policy holders. I would propose that there is really no such thing as the concept of insurance as we now know it. The Corps eat their losses pretty much in their entirety.

Vlad

I think the setup of the truck and security depends strictly on the cargo and the run. I have had a number family members that have driven a truck for a living. Short hauls and long hauls are completely different in how they are ran. Long Hauls are trips between warehouses and/or distribtution centers. Short trips tend to be between the warehouse and the final destination. For example, lets follow a trip of one item from the manufacturing plant to the Stuffer Shack shelf. Let's say it's a Bust-a-Move

The Bust-a-Move will be manufactured and stored at the facility's small warehouse where it is housed until a full order is produced. From there it will most likely be put on a single truck with a driver. This single truck will transport the load to the region's distibution center where it will be sorted and stored. The Bust-a-Move will then be added to a truck with an order that will travel to a particular store. This truck may become part of a convoy. Let's say 10 trucks, heading from the distribution center to Seattle.

In 2072, these trucks may all be controlled by the same rigger travelling in one of the trucks. This convoy will drop off trucks along the route to either large stores with their own docks or smaller warehouses where the products can be put on smaller trucks to be deliverd to the smaller stores that cannot handle a large rig. These trucks will be unloaded while the Rigger continues on his route to deliver the remaining trucks. Once the rigger has dropped of the last truck he will either pick up an unloaded one or wait for his truck to be unloaded. Then he will start making the return trip where he can pick up his other trucks.

From my experience that would be one of the best ways. It doesn't matter how many trucks there are there has to be at least one driver. It may change with smaller loads or mulitple destinations it all depends on what the cargo is and how much of it. Unless the cargo is valuable though I agree that it will be without security. Letting insurance cover lost loads. I have never known any of my family to ever need security for a load they have driven. And some of my relatives have driven with explosives as a payload.

You're misunderstanding me. Losing a few is still cheaper and more profitable then implementing the sort of security you're discussing.



And you're going to have to pay pensions, benefits, medical, do schedules, etc...etc...All of which is very costly.



The same things that do now. The police respond to reported crimes, which are a small percentage of actual crimes. No, it's not a fear of the police that stop people from robbing trucks. It's laziness, and technical know how.

Once again if you own a trucking company you have more to lose paying for the sort of security you're discussing than you would if you just took your chances.



This comes down to personal play style preferences. I think we could argue this all day and not come to an agreement.



More than it'd cost to just program the vehicles, place maybe a few simple security measures to deter the on fence criminals, but in the end you know that you can't stop a determined criminal. So you don't try. Why bother with benefits, vacation and holiday coverage, health insurance, all of the things that come with having employees-security risks, grievances, workmans comp claims, etc...when you can do it just as cheap with nothing?

Screw responsibility, screw the client-you've got insurance. You don't lose no matter what. A shipment gets hit? So what! Write it off.



Why wouldn't it be?



I think you're wrong, but this falls to personal play style preference so neither of us is in the wrong. Insurance is a scam, and like all pyramid schemes and financial cons it's about playing the numbers. I see no reason for it to have disappeared in 2072, rather I see it becoming a more lucrative business that continues to screw the little guys.

Good post ravensoracle, I have a few friends who work logistics and what you say jives with what I understand about the industry.

I am curious though, can the one driver be replaced via telepresence?

Hu? Where did my post go?

I do stand by my statement of "You won't be losing a few." You will be losing shipments left and right. This is the 2070's. And yes, different peoples games differ, but I think most of us play in a dystopian future of some degree. More anarchy, more crime, less socialism, less assertive policing, no one caring about anything save their own hoops.

Let's use an easy example of what I would call a moderate load: 12 Mercury Comets at 12K nuyen apiece. That 144,000Y of merchandise and that's what would probably be sittng on just one trailer being pulled by a tractor. Let's say that there's a convoy from Ford of jsut 6 of these things heading from Detroit to Seattle. Through at lesat two different nations. That's 864,000Y of merchandise. Let's say Ford only gets 80% of the sales from these cars and the dealers receive 20% upon sale. That means Ford has an investment of nearly 700,000Y in those 6 trucks full of cars. This isn't even including the cost of the semis themselves! Nearly 3/4 of a million bucks. Just one shipment. Let's say a go-gang who knows this cargo is unprotected save for a few maglocks hits the shipment. Steals hte cars, chops them for 20 percent of what they are worth. (There's plenty of people out there wanting cheap parts for their 3 year old Comet that isn't under warranty anymore.) That go-gang jsut made 138,000Y for it's minor, minor trouble. You tell me that isn't extremely attractive to the lawless! Meanwhile, Ford's dealership is going under because it regularly doesn't receive it's cars to sell and Ford itself can not afford to jsut be writing off 3 quarters of a million bucks on a regular basis.



Why do I have to do any of those things if I am a corp? This is 2072! This is neo-political conservatism of the 1980's played out to it conclusion. I pay you X amount of money. I am hiring you as a sub-contractor. It's your job to save what you wnat, invest what you want and spend what you want. You want medical benefits? Go buy a policy from Doc Wagon. It's not my business to worry about your welfare. I am paying you to do a job for me.



You are trying to make your argument with current day circumstances. We are talking 2072. If a city like Seattle has all the crime it does within it's environs (I am jsut going with the canon of the fluff books) and the police can't do more than they do, why on earth would you believe the highways between the cities would be safe like they are today? If there are roving bands of criminals within the city, there are surely all sorts of roving bands outside the cities. If the corps own the police within the cities and make it jsut safe enough to make a profit for themselves and to keep the elite safe, don't you think that they are also going to simply pay enough for the security to keep their merchadise safe... no more, no less. They don't care about he Jones that died on the highway, there is always a new buyer for their widget that is smart and stays in the city where its safe(er). But their cargo? That's their entire reason for existance! Without that cargo being sold the company doesn't exist.




Insurance can not exist without taking in more money than it is paying out. If a company jsut places claims constantly against the loss, then the insurance company is going to keep raising it's rates for hte insured company. Eventually they will simply drop the client as being uninsurable.. It's a corporation too. It's sole purpose is to be profitable. Can you imagine going to you auto insurance company and saying "My car was stolen. I don't know why this happened again. I just left my windows down and the keys in the ignition and parked downtown near those old condemned buildings." They would be refusing to pay out soooo fast it would be ridiculous. And you wouldn't expect them to pay out. Yet, you are saying the insurance companies would pay out if an insured company hauling cargo a couple thousand miles through a pretty rough and lawless area, without any security other than a little electronics lost a load. They wouldn't be covered! And if they did keep making claims that did receive compensation, they would keep facing higher and higher rates for their insurance.. eventually by-passing the value of their merchandise. At some point the company would go "You know, it's far cheaper if we jsut set up our own security for these things, at least as a deterent. Our load of cars is worth nearly 700,000Y to us? OKay hire a team of 6 for let's say 5% of that: 35,000Y. That's about 7K apiece for 2-3 days of work. INterestingly enough, it's also aobut the same rate that a typical Shadowrunner makes for an easy beginner run. Huh! Now, let's imaigne that protection cost is already built into the individual price of the car which is why it costs 12,000Y and not 11,500. You are paying a 500Y shipping fee. Not unreasonable at all.

Let me close this by saying this is how I see the game and how I understand the rules of economics to work. It's what makes Shadowrun plausible to me. I know others view things differently. Everyone's milage varies.

In SR i'd say yes. You'd could have a sat link and the rigger could be sitting at some control station somewhere. Think of todays AF Predator UMV. Although, personally I'd run with at least one rigger with a convoy. There are things you need to do as a driver besides drive. Loads can shift in transit and someone has to be there when it does. Going thru the mountains means putting chains on tires and adjuting the wheel carriage of the trailer. Trust me so many little things have to be done that a presence of a driver is needed not just behind the wheel.


Vladski The setup you are talking about is a bit extreme for just a cargo run. Do you realize how many trucks are on the road at any given time delivering goods. If the merchandise being shipped is exensive enough to require security then your setup would work but I would say that would be for cargos priced in the millions. More than likely security comes in the form of drones. Put a drone rack on the riggers truck that carries a couple drones. Just enough to keep all but the most hardened criminals at bay long enough for a police presence to arrive.

As to the open highway, I'd say the Go-gangs are more of a city problem. I live in the Midwest of the US and traveling the open road is less dangerous than travelling into the cities. Sherrifs and Highway patrol cover a smaller area than you think. And since there is a smaller population density. The response time isn't that much worse than in the cities. Unless you are in some of the most remote areas.

If you are using the movies as an example of Midwestern living and the police force there, you are getting bad information. A lot people on the east and west coasts do not understand life in the midwest. We aren't dumb inbred hicks as Hollywood wants to portray. We just tend to have a different way of doing things.

I agree that your drone solution is a plausible one. And no I don't think everything would be protected, or at least heavily protected. And I could even see the corps doing something like blowing up their cargo before they let raiders score it. What you said about "millions" in cargo tho'... do you realize how many trucks going down the road have nearly that much or more than that value in their trailers? I work for a discount merchandise retail chain that gets a semi once a week. It has on average about 1800 boxes which fill it anywhere from 2/3 to 3/4 full. I and 2-3 other people unload that trailer every Monday morning and it takes us about 2 hours. The contents of that shipment vary somewhat, but on average over half a million dollars worth of goods. And these goods are discounted from 50-80 percent of their original value. And we are SMALL compared to say a Walmart or Target... like on a scale of maybe a 6th or less.

Look at my example using the Comets. Book price 12K.. a very cheap sedan. Cars frequently go for 2 to 3 times that. A car trailer typically holds 10-12 cars. 6 of those trailers can easily hold 1-2 million dollars worth of merchandise... merchandise which is highly resell-able.

What I guess I am saying is that some folks don't seem to realize how valuable each and every load is to a company. That it IS worth millions to them and it's loss and delays in being able to replace those goods for the public result in even more losses as the public will take it's business elsewhere. You lose merchandise, you can make/get more. You lose customers, you die.

And, I do know what the Midwest is like. I was born and raised and lived the majority of my 40+ years in central Indiana (Kokomo, to be precise.. town of about 40K) and I moved to Wichita, KS about 2 years ago. I couldn't be more Midwest unless I actually grew corn/soy or raised hogs. *LOL* My point is that you are looking at the US in 2009 and I am looking at what the UCAS will be like in 2072. Vastly different creatures. As people gather more and more to the cities and become more urban those long lonely stretches of the plains and hte west are going to revert back to the nearly lawless types of places they were prior to the turn of hte century. No one can effectively police them. The future governments are too weak and hte corps don't care. It's easier and cheaper to just gun up your convoys and press through, maybe losing a truck here or there. But in my idea of what SR would be like, you go driving through there with something shiny and precious like a Conostoga caravan full of millions of nuyen worth of merchandise, you are jsut begging to raided by the land pirates. As a raider, you take a couple trucks for a million apiece and get jsut a return of 20 percent? Are you seriously going to try and convince me that there won't be roving gangs of 20-30 metahumans willing to do whatever it takes to score 200,000-400,000 nuyen in jsut one heist? In an area full of places that you could jsut... disappear? That other corps wouldn't be paying these future day privateers to hijack the trucks of their rival corps but leave their own alone? That's the whole basis of Shadowrun!

Vlad

*Emphasis mine*

Don't forget that this mentions railroads also. Anything of relatively low value may be on a truck, as well as anything being transported in bulk or incognito. Adding lots of security would just make you stand out as a particularly juicy target. On board weapons are probably the rule, and escorts are rarely used (unless of course you're trying to get them to go after the truck with all the security). Escorts = Decoy? YMMV, of course.

But hey, that's all just my opinion and no one cares what I think.

Sure, roads are more dangeruos in SR than now. Goverment is weak, there is no "real" police, more borders = more areas of jurisdiction + border tensions. Add go-gangs, other outlaws, shadowrunners, terrorists, local little wars...
But of course, not every convoy will be heavy armed. Depends of cargo value and how dangerous the route is.

I think that corps could sometimes pay a small fee to go-gangs for "protection".

And about zeppelins: IMHO it could work. With proper technology, materials and regulations (bonus for "eco-friendly" transport, perhaps?) and use of airy currents they could be a relatively cheap and safe (no problems with go-gangs, tsunamis, earthquakes...) way of transport. Of course, gas used in them must not be flammable (like hydrogen in old zeppelins).
At least one corp in 6th World - Kondorchid, mentioned in Ghost Cartels campaign - makes extensive use of zeppelins.

OK, I'm glad that there are others in the area. Personally I am about 1 1/2 SE of Wichita, and visit there regularly. I will concede that it may be more lawless in 2072 but I am thinking the most protection is going to be drones. Put a Satelite link on the truck to act as a repeater for extra Riggers to jump into the drones if needed. I doubt every convoy will have it's own secutriy force. But maybe having security forces based out of some of the some of the rest/refueling stops that travel along the same lines would be more cost friendly. Put a HTR team in a helicopter to answer to any of the gangs trying to rip of a load. With the drones a rigger should be able to keep all but the most determined groups at bay until a team can arrive.

I do disagree with the writer's saying that everyone will abandon the rural areas though. Not everyone wants to live in the suburbs and while I can't find the article to back it up I have read that, in the midwest at least, more people are leaving the cities and moving to rural areas to get away from the crime and congestion.

Double post

Thank you all very much.

I can see this being a bit of both. Taking the sudan pirate situation as an example, once to many cargos get wacked the corps wake up and actively do something about it but is said security standard well not for ordinary stuff no. Expensive stuff has security now and this would be no different.

Telecommuting is big in IT. Doing it now. And you can live any where you have a good connection.

So why wouldn't people leave the crowded cities or a more rural area if it was available.

For one thing it is usually much cheaper.

And when everyone is in the matrix who can tell if you are in at the office or not?


Seattle does have one problem because it can not expand any more.

But it depends where directly they want to live. In this case, I believe more dystopian vision is correct; crime is less common in rural areas than in sprawls, but can be more dangerous, if there's no Lone Star or corpsec on call. So there will be something more like corporate enclaves than little towns, I think. Or towns with a good security.

I very much agree. Everyone's mileage will vary. More later if I get a chance.