Please excuse me if this question has been addressed before.

Say a magician on the astral plane is armed with a weapon focus in the form of a sword. (STR/2+3) damage.

how much damage will that do against astral opponents?

Will it do (STR/2+3) or (CHA/2+3) or something else entirely.

Thanks.

Astral Strength is equal to the magician's Charisma, so Cha/2 + 3.

Presumably, if you are Projecting rather than Perceiving and using Astral Combat rather than Blades?

Right?

Well, you wouldn't be using Blades Skill against an astral opponent. I have to check but off the top of my head I think dual-natured (i.e. astrally perceiving) characters/critters can choose between using their physical Strength and astral Strength. Astrally projecting characters would of course use their astral Strength.

Hmm, on further examination.

Dual-natured creatures use Physical Stats and Skills when fighting anything with a physical body but Astral Combat + Will when fighting purely Astral Forms.

Really?
If you are - for example - an adept (using astral perception and teh aforementioned weapon focus) attacking a mage who is astrally projecting.
In this case, the adept uses his Blades skill and his STR for damage. Or am I wrong?

I would have thought this made sense.

The rules however are quite explicit and contradictory.

Why does the Weapon-Focus not Force Damage to only astral available targets?

Streamlining, I suppose. It works essentially the same in physical and astral combat. The Force is used as bonus dice for the attack.



What do you find contradictory there?

Bye
Thanee

That the rules to not agree with common sense.

Not that i would mind all that much, because i actually LIKE playing Trolls . .
But how does a Troll benefit from hitting something that is not quite there HARDER due to his body?

Maybe you have hit the nail on the head.
I have re-read it.

SR4, p.184 says:
"Astrally perceiving and dual natured characters use their
Physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical
body, and their Willpower + Astral Combat skill to fight wholly
astral entities."

So, to hit the astral form, the "force of will" is the relevant one.

Ah, no, not really . . You use WILLPOWER and ASTRAL COMBAT as your ATTACK POOL. But it does not say how much Damage you deal there it seems. Unless, i am misunderstandingh something there.

Damage against astral entities would be Cha/2+Weapon's Damage Modifier.

Bye
Thanee

Could you be a little more specific?

The only thing I find 'a little weird' is, that a katana actually does more damage than a dagger, but it's certainly not unexplainable.

Bye
Thanee

A spirit is standing directly in front of an Adept that is Astrally Perceiving.

The spirit stands stock still on the Astral for one IP and then Materializes without moving.

In the first IP the Adept must use Astral Combat to swing his sword at the spirit. In the second he is allowed to use Blades when making an identical swing at a target that has not moved.

He has performed exactly the same action twice but the first time he must use a different skill he may not even possess.

Yeah, but the problem with that is, that you picture astral space the same as the physical world.

Actions there translate differently.

The Adept has not done the exact same thing, that's why he couldn't use Blades.

First he has pitted his force of will against the spirit's (the astral melee attack is just a metaphor for that), then he has attacked its manifested form.

Bye
Thanee

No, he skelped it with a Weapon Focus.

Which is exactly the point of a Weapon Focus.

Then why did he use Willpower (= Body) and not Logic (= Agility)?

Bye
Thanee

Because that is the linked stat for Astral Combat?

Yeah, but why is it that?

Because you swing your sword like you do in your meatbody?

Or...

Bye
Thanee

Or?

Or because that's what the RAW says, regardless of how much sense that makes.

Same as you do in your meat body?

He's still in his meat body and has performed exactly the same actions in exactly the same manner on exactly the same target.

Which is, again, the point of a Weapon Focus and why said focus does the same damage on the Astral as it does in the real world...

Well... I can only try to explain the difference between the two (as I see it).

Bye
Thanee

Good evening everyone.

I would like to throw a very large, very fluffy bee in everybody's bonnet.

Does the spirit move the body, or does the body move the spirit? That is the question GM's out there need to answer. Imho, weapon focuses provide a FOCUS to link the intention of the movement with the physical movement. When interacting with purely astral critter, astral attributed are used for hit and damage. When enteracting with physical critters, physical attributes are uses for hit and damage. With both situations the bonus dice from the focus applies due to the drawing togeather of intention and action.

This dicussion has been primarily on strength vs. charisma. How does hitting something that exists only as a magical construct, a non physical critter, physically harder make any difference? It is charisma, force of personality, emotional and spiritual strength that powers astral combat. Even when the astral combat happens to be attached to a meatbod.

Just as a wonderful example of astral combat see "Big trouble in little china". Lo Pan and Egg Shan's duel. No ninja flips needed.

That's my 2

Mattman

Lies! It's ALL in the reflexes!