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Phoenix (A-Team)
3rd Edition said yes. Some products were reduced in essence cost when they had less meat body to implant into. Some argue that instead of essence, some cyberware should cost Capacity/Essence instead of flat Essence. Items like Orthoskin, Bonelacing, Wired Reflexes and the like.

My opinion:

Bonelacing; if you've replaced most of your bones with metal, then what good is wrapping them in more metal going to do? Essentially that would be like adding armor into your cyberlimb's capacity, as far as I'm concerned.

Orthoskin, Dermal Plating and the like; I suppose it'd work as an organic (or not-so organic) layer above your metal innards. I think, in fact, that there should be advanced kinds of Bioware available that better disguise your cyberlimbs, like realistic skin layered over the metal. But it shouldn't cost that much essence if it's actually adding meat to you (or layering over metal). If anything, some of the layered skins and plating should detract from your charisma for making you scarier instead of just chromed. My two-nuyen's worth on that one.

Wired Reflexes; This one's tricky, in my way of thinking. Using "neural boosters and adrenaline stimulators throughout the body" is what they say in their description. To me that means that the brain is enhanced to interpret and react to signals relayed along streamlined paths throughout the body. If you're cybered, then this should be as simple as amping up the reaction time within your limbs. Maybe it should cost a couple of Capacity slots per limb for the added enhancements. But it sounds like the "invasive" cybering of this device is meant to be spread throughout the body. And if the body is 70% metal, then what does this mean for your essence cost? Hmm...

Move-by-Wire; putting the body in a constant state of twitch. Well, as much as Wired Reflexes, I believe this system relies on muscle control and networking nerves throughout the entire body. And if most of your limbs are cybered, then it should be a matter of tweaking the hardware in your limbs to respond faster and more accurately, or adding enhanced equipment to fill your Capacity so that they can do that.

Skillwires; well... shouldn't it be the cost of a datajack only? At this point you're limbs are all already cybered, so they should be able to slave themselves to a chip with preprogrammed skills if you so desired. Doesn't sound like you need to lace new 'wares throughout your limbs to tell them what to do if the controls are already there and so easily diverted to a comlink with a skill-program in it, or a datajack with a skill chip jacked into it.


In short; powers that be... and those that wish to debate, what do you think about clarifying the rules regarding essence cost of heavy cyberwares once the body has had multiple limbs replaced with cyberlimbs?
Ravor
I suppose it depends on how much of the cyber is in the brain iteslf. However I'd hate to have to proof the rules for such a system, too much paperwork.
Stahlseele
Those Rules were scrapped in the Transition from SR3 to SR4.
Also don't forget, that the Torso, while being lumped in with a Limb, is basically just a hardened Shell around your Organs.
Just Anchoring to keep the rest of you together. Nothing else. MBW and Wired Reflexes work on the Centreal Nervous System.
The brain and the spine/backbone. That stuff was ALLWAYS horribly essence costing.
Thanee
I don't see Essence cost as how much of your body is replaced in quantity, but rather how drastically your body is changed.

A Reaction Enhancer is a fairly drastic change, even though it's probably just a really tiny thing put into your spine (or whereever it is put), so it has a proportionally higher Essence cost.

Bye
Thanee
Stahlseele
Essence loss was never really explained. Only that it is a balancing mechanism.
You don't lose Essence for losing your arm, but hooking up a new one costs essence.
With Dermal-Stuff and Bone-Stuff this gets even worse, because nothing is changed.
Nothing gets connected to your nervous System and you lose nothing. I guess i had
read somewhere that in THESE cases the essence loss comes from immunosuppressants
to keep your body from kicking it out again. But why would the body kick it out anywy?
Titan and other such stuff is not recognized by the immune system at all. Then there is
the whole "your body changed and the universe does not like it so your aura weakend".

Also, Reaction enhancers replace parts of the spinal column with super conductive stuff.
Basically, as if you were to replace CAT5 Cabling in your house with fibre wire optical cables.
Chance359
There was a set of house rules back in the day (SR2) that you got a -0.15 modifier for each cyberlimb to the cost of other bodyware installed after the limb.

To expland the house example from above, if I'm running a 220 line from the basement to the attic, I shouldn't have to run a new line each time. I should be able to have some kind of basic system, a nervous system upgrade that everything else plugs into.
Jaid
darn, if only someone had devised some kind of rules wherein installing multiple items of cyberware was to decrease the essence cost to reflect the synergy and the ability to have various components as double duty.

i mean, if i was to create such an absurdity, i would probably call it "cyberware suites" and put it in augmentation, starting on page 48 and then providing some example suites all the way up to the end of page 49. i might even include text that says something like "Gamemasters are encouraged to develop their own cyberware suites, as best fits their campaigns."

but alas, the opportunity is lost! woe is me! for now i shall never be able to witness what might have been, if *only* someone had thought to place such rules in augmentation!

(sometimes i wonder if there's a secret gaming police that punishes people for using the rules that already exist with different fluff text. then i realise that if there was such an organisation, i'd be long dead, so you're probably safe. then again, maybe i'm just a secret agent of the gaming police, waiting for you to reflavor the rules... and when you do, well... you don't want to know what might happen.... vegm.gif )
Marwynn
You sir owe me a new Sarcasm Detector.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Chance359 @ Oct 16 2009, 10:17 PM) *
There was a set of house rules back in the day (SR2) that you got a -0.15 modifier for each cyberlimb to the cost of other bodyware installed after the limb.

To expland the house example from above, if I'm running a 220 line from the basement to the attic, I shouldn't have to run a new line each time. I should be able to have some kind of basic system, a nervous system upgrade that everything else plugs into.

Those rules actually got upgraded and made official in SR3.
Jaid
QUOTE (Marwynn @ Oct 16 2009, 05:09 PM) *
You sir owe me a new Sarcasm Detector.

hey, it's not my fault you bought the cheap emotitoy empathy software. that's why you should have instead bought the Horizon Psychic™ software package, which has a much larger storage buffer than those cheaply made ones from china. Horizon Psychic™ software: so good you'll know what they're thinking before they do!

nyahnyah.gif
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 16 2009, 04:59 PM) *
darn, if only someone had devised some kind of rules wherein installing multiple items of cyberware was to decrease the essence cost to reflect the synergy and the ability to have various components as double duty.

i mean, if i was to create such an absurdity, i would probably call it "cyberware suites" and put it in augmentation, starting on page 48 and then providing some example suites all the way up to the end of page 49. i might even include text that says something like "Gamemasters are encouraged to develop their own cyberware suites, as best fits their campaigns."


Except Jaid, what Phoenix was asking about would not be covered by cyberware suites. Suites have to be designed beforehand to work in unison.
Phoenix (A-Team)
Exactly.

Though I do agree that Cyber Suites are a good choice if you're beginning a character in that fashion. But even then, how do you decide what the Essence cost should be (if you're making one of your own) so that you're not abusing the system?

Some of this discussion's been very interesting, though. The debate over how much is in the brain/spine and how much is in the extremities is a good one and hits the closest to what I was originally asking.


Game wise, is it right to reduce the Essence cost of adding some of these items to your heavily cybered character?

If yes, then by how much? Nobody wants to make Wired Reflexes and Move-By-Wire easy to buy with essence (or they wouldn't be so unique). Perhaps nuyen cost isn't affected, even though it takes less Essence (reflecting the tweaking of cyberware systems). Perhaps it requires Essence and Capacity.

If no, then why not? Makes for good debate.


This question was originally brought up under the thread for Damien Knight's character generator.
Falconer
Disagree strongly w/ reduced essence after limbs.

Your remaining essence is more tightly concentrated now in your non-cyber parts, making replacing it even more dear than if it was more evenly distributed through the body if you want a fluff reason. Put another way, you've replaced all your bones w/ bone lacing augmentation before cyberlimbs, and you're still doing it again after cyberlimbs. (the fact that all your bones are less than they were before doesn't matter... you've got less essence and bones to go around making them all that much more dear).


Really, between alpha, biocompatibility, adapsin, reductions, half-bio/cyber cost for lesser... you can pack an awful lot of cyber & bio in now. No reason to make it even more complicated or even potentially broken. (remember cyberlimbs also have capacity which allow you to stuff an awful lot of extra cyber into them w/o even touching essence at all again).
OneTrikPony
QUOTE (Falconer @ Oct 18 2009, 12:52 AM) *
Your remaining essence is more tightly concentrated now in your non-cyber parts


Nope. my cyber arm cost me 1 essence so now I have 5 points of essence in 5 natural limbs were before I had 6 essence in 6 natural limbs. Still 1:1 ratio.

The fact that you have mechanicaly enhance 3 out of 4 physical stats to improve the limb to match karma improvements to the natural body more than ballances the ability to put gear into limbs. The fact that the benefits of other essence and expencive bodyware does not apply to those stats weakens cyberlimbs. The fact that cyber scanners are really really cheap and limmited only by GM fiat. Makes the choice to put a cyberlimb on a character almost stupid. The expansions to the rules in AUG and SR4A helps a little bit.

Reducing the essence cost of Bodyware (and only full body bodyware) by 15% per limb is a good idea. I think it ought to be extended to the cost also.
Falconer
You've completely failed to get my counterpoint. Part of it was it's fluffy logic to state why it should work... and it's fluffy logic to say why it shouldn't. And from a mechanics perspective there's plenty enough ways to reduce essence costs now, that I don't think it's necessary. It's an unnecessarily complication to a fairly streamlined system.... buy bio & buy cyber (apply reductions as appropriate).


Lets say you have the entirety of your essence across your body... you have a cyberhand.. pretty minimal, comparatively little impact.... but if the entirety of your essence is only that lower arm... now replacing a hand is a much bigger deal, as the loss is proportionally much greater.

It's simply a fluffy argument of where does the essence reside... which can eventually devolve into a how many angels dance on the head of a pin argument. If the essence is spread across the body including the bits you've cybered... then yes there's less essence proportionally for the same modification... if it's concentrated in your still meat portion.. then it doesn't matter, the loss shouldn't change as it's just as disruptive to the remainder as if you did it to the whole body. (within the limitations of the either-or fallacy of course).

See the point. I don't see a good reason to complicate the current rules.


PS: I also disagree that a cyberarm is a bad investment even in the presence of cyberware scanners... there's a lot you can do and fill them which isn't even 'R' with them (armor and agility immediately comes to mind...). Or go megaman w/ a replacable lower arm segment if you want a highly illegal arm w/ things like cyber-gyromount..

Jaid
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Oct 17 2009, 04:30 AM) *
Except Jaid, what Phoenix was asking about would not be covered by cyberware suites. Suites have to be designed beforehand to work in unison.

which part of "using the rules that already exist with different fluff text" did you not get?

we were asked for advice on how to handle situations where, because of using the same components or simply not having to install components of given pieces of 'ware into a person, they would logically lose less essence. i pointed out a set of rules that cover exactly that sort of thing, and pointed out that it only takes a few seconds to change that to "this also applies if you combine 2 cyberlimbs with bone lacing".
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Oct 18 2009, 11:31 AM) *
Nope. my cyber arm cost me 1 essence so now I have 5 points of essence in 5 natural limbs were before I had 6 essence in 6 natural limbs. Still 1:1 ratio.


My delta grade full body cyberlimb replacement only cost me 3 essence points, so now I have 3 points of essence in 0 natural limbs which gives me a ratio of 3 divided by 0.

O SHI-



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Here's another argument:
Adding more cyberware to a body with existing cyberware is less effective. Dermal plating on someone with 70% robot body shouldn't possibly confer the same armor bonus.
Stahlseele
actually, that was in the rules too.
if you had more tan 2 limbs, you lost bonuses from bone lace and dermal tech . .
Trench
Making all the systems work together effectively for reduced essence cost = alphaware.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Falconer @ Oct 18 2009, 04:07 PM) *
It's simply a fluffy argument of where does the essence reside... which can eventually devolve into a how many angels dance on the head of a pin argument.


The answer is zero, because angels don't dance. silly.gif
Karoline
Well, you do get this to some extent already. It is always cheaper in essence to get something installed as capacity than it is to get the thing installed as stand alone cyberware. Take the nanohive in particular for instance. A rating 6 nanohive takes up 2 essence. That same rating 6 nanohive takes up 2 capacity, which means you could fit two of them (4 essence worth) into a cyberhand/foot which costs less than half an essence. I see no reason to stack these benefits with a decrease in the essence cost of other bioware.

There are plenty of examples of cases where things fail to replace your meat (Geneware), yet cost you essence, or cases in which different things which replace the same amount of meat cost different essence (Bone Lacing). It is obvious that essence isn't just meat being replaced with machines, it is a measure of how much you have deviated from yourself. Think of it as the difference between your true aura (The one you would have as six essence) and the aura that you currently have, which has been altered by gene tweaking, adding foreign organisms, replacing meat with metal, and so on. Even though there is less meat (Well, bone) being replaced by bone lacing when you have a cyberarm, it is still the same level of deviation from your true self. That could also explain why different materials have different essence losses, because the stronger metals are considered a greater deviation from your true self.
Phoenix (A-Team)
Hmm... this discussion isn't really going the direction I was hoping for.

Yes, Cyber Suites are the ideal pack-it-all-into-one crunch. But just how much of a bargain is fair?

Some items, yes, are listed as to how much Capacity they take up. Those don't concern me, cause the game makers already settled those debates.

It's a question of certain devices that normally have a heavy effect on the meat of a body and cost a lot of Essence because of their invasive construction and workings throughout the body. Such as Move-By-Wire, for instance. A large part of it is likely in the brain/spine where information processing is sped up and signal communication with the rest of the body is boosted. And yet, this system actually assumes control of the limbs themselves with amazing grace and speed. So much so that it acts as a Skillwires device. The original writings say that the body is put into a state of seizure and that only the mechanical wire systems of this cyberware keep it under control, allowing each body part to move quick and flawlessly as the brain permits it. This says to me that there is more to this system than just the brain and spine, that there are mechanical means of controlling and distributing movement and articulation throughout the extremities.

If the extremities of a person have been replaced with cyberware, does this mean this particular piece of cyberware is of no use to them because they have no muscles to put into seizure? Is it useless because their extremities are already mechanical and need no additional systems installed to do the same thing? Does it mean the cyberlimbs themselves can be tweaked to accomplish the same results? If they were tweaked in that way, likely they would need to install other 'wares to keep the brain and spine on par with the abilities of the limbs.

Likewise, Skillwires are almost the same question. Why shouldn't I be able to slot a chip in my cybertorso and have it operate my arms and legs to do everything they need to do to perform a needed skill? Perhaps this system also requires a brain/spine component that allows the perceptive abilities of my character to feed and interact with the Skillwire system. And yet, I have the sense that there is already something like that allowing my character to control and manipulate their limbs as if they were real. So indeed, the system should be able to use that to communicate with the brain and senses. But if it did require more Essence would it really require the full cost of the actual system if it's only that single interface?

Yes, one could say that it simply drains the rest of your essence and more because it does. End of story. But I'm looking for a little more flavor here. Something that tells me, as a player or GM, why I should or shouldn't reduce that particular Essence cost if I make my own Cyber Suite.

These, I believe, were my original points and ponderings.

For those who like the rules as they are, I have no problem with that. Though this is likely not the debate for you.
Stahlseele
Try and look up the SR3 rules for this. Then adapt them to SR4
Ravor
Personally I think I'd ask myself whether or not the reason the discussion has gone the way it has is if the rule changes you want to make are simply too much hassle to use for too little gain and that there isn't any real way to calculate what the reduced Essence cost "should" be.
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