I've got a runner with capsules filled with DMSO/Leal for a (hopefully) non-lethal way of dealing with someone unfortunate enough to stumble onto a run-in-progress. I just need to be sure I know how it works. Could somebody give me a breakdown of what dice to roll, what defenses to apply and what the end effects are?
The reason for the confusion is partially that the description of Leas in Arsenal seems to be missing one or more words, or at least a comma. And thus it is a little unclear. For instance, is unconsciousness guaranteed?
Thanks!
Full Version: Capsule Round Question
Likewise, as a drug, Lael doesn't have a power rating like a toxin. So what is the difficulty to resist unconsciousness and memory loss?
Please help!
Please help!
QUOTE (Ghost in the Machine @ Oct 17 2009, 04:11 PM) 
I've got a runner with capsules filled with DMSO/Leal for a (hopefully) non-lethal way of dealing with someone unfortunate enough to stumble onto a run-in-progress. I just need to be sure I know how it works. Could somebody give me a breakdown of what dice to roll, what defenses to apply and what the end effects are?
The reason for the confusion is partially that the description of Leas in Arsenal seems to be missing one or more words, or at least a comma. And thus it is a little unclear. For instance, is unconsciousness guaranteed?
Thanks!
Likewise, as a drug, Lael doesn't have a power rating like a toxin. So what is the difficulty to resist unconsciousness and memory loss?
Please help!
~Ghost in the Machine
The reason for the confusion is partially that the description of Leas in Arsenal seems to be missing one or more words, or at least a comma. And thus it is a little unclear. For instance, is unconsciousness guaranteed?
Thanks!
Likewise, as a drug, Lael doesn't have a power rating like a toxin. So what is the difficulty to resist unconsciousness and memory loss?
Please help!
~Ghost in the Machine
Apply damage from the Firearms attack as normal for Capsule Rounds... IF there is at least a single point of damage that is actually inflicted then the DMSO Cocktail is administered and they test against the Toxin (Body plus any Toxin Resistance/Chemical Resistance Applicable)...
Leal has no power, it does a strict 10s Damage (See Awakened Drug Section, Page 76 Under Laes/Leal Description)... So the character must resist the damage, Will fall unconscious (for 5x1d6 Minutes) regardless of whether they have taken damage (per the description of the Drug itself), and will lose all memories of the last (120-Body Minutes, Minimum of 100 Minutes)... This is a pretty steep shot cost, but I imagine that it would be extremely Reliable indeed... DOn't forget to add the DMSO cost into the Cocktail - 193 Nuyen per Attempted Shot is pretty steep (3 times the cost of a DMSO/Narcojet round, but pretty darn effective if I do say so myself)
Keep the Faith...
Maybe you have a bum printing? The entry for Laes in my copy of Arsenal gives it (and the wine) a damage code of 10S for the Toxin Resistance test, Ingestion/Injection vector, and a Speed of 1 turn. The memory loss only kicks in if it knocks you out, so, presumably, if you stave off the effects, you don't lose them. The rules for resolving toxin attacks with that information are in the core book, p. 244 (dunno the page in SR4A).
Though the question occurs as to why they'd want to use Laes when it's so bloody expensive. Narcoject does pretty much the same thing (barring memory loss), doesn't leave traceable side-effects, and is one tenth as expensive per dose.
Though the question occurs as to why they'd want to use Laes when it's so bloody expensive. Narcoject does pretty much the same thing (barring memory loss), doesn't leave traceable side-effects, and is one tenth as expensive per dose.
QUOTE (TonkaTuff @ Oct 17 2009, 09:08 PM)
Maybe you have a bum printing? The entry for Laes in my copy of Arsenal gives it (and the wine) a damage code of 10S for the Toxin Resistance test, Ingestion/Injection vector, and a Speed of 1 turn. The memory loss only kicks in if it knocks you out, so, presumably, if you stave off the effects, you don't lose them. The rules for resolving toxin attacks with that information are in the core book, p. 244 (dunno the page in SR4A).
Though the question occurs as to why they'd want to use Laes when it's so bloody expensive. Narcoject does pretty much the same thing (barring memory loss), doesn't leave traceable side-effects, and is one tenth as expensive per dose.
Though the question occurs as to why they'd want to use Laes when it's so bloody expensive. Narcoject does pretty much the same thing (barring memory loss), doesn't leave traceable side-effects, and is one tenth as expensive per dose.
Yes, Speed is One Turn, Duration is 120-Body Minutes (100 Minutes Minimum)... And I did say 10S for Damage Test... DMSO Bypasses the Injection/Ingestion problem by making the Lael a Contact Vector, You do not have to be unconscious to have the drug affect your memories, it is a side effect of the drug itself (just as Disorientation or the secondary electrical effects of a tazer do not rely upon you actually taking any real damage from the primary attack; and just like our modern version of the date rape drug nowadays), The secondary effects of Lael are regardless of damage as they are explicitly stated to always occur... And I was using Arsenal and SR4A Core (Incidently, it is on Page 254 under Power)
And No, Narcojet is 1/3 as expensive per dose (63 Nuyen per Dose as opposed to Lael's 193 Nuyen Per dose) as Lael is a less expensive and less powerful version of Leas... See the Description in Arsenal under the Leas Heading
Keep the Faith
Small point... while it might wipe out memories.. it won't wipe out cybereye/ear recordings!
So it's not as foolproof as some seem to think.
Overall I think my favorite use of capsule is like one of those non-lethal 'paintball' rounds I saw showcased on TV a while back. Fired out of a paintball gun (with higher pressure than normal)... when it hits it pops in a spread of pepper powder.
Either that or just fill them w/ good old water or paint. They definately are more attractive to me now than the new SR4a gel rounds :(.
So it's not as foolproof as some seem to think.
Overall I think my favorite use of capsule is like one of those non-lethal 'paintball' rounds I saw showcased on TV a while back. Fired out of a paintball gun (with higher pressure than normal)... when it hits it pops in a spread of pepper powder.
Either that or just fill them w/ good old water or paint. They definately are more attractive to me now than the new SR4a gel rounds :(.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 18 2009, 05:04 AM)
Leal has no power, it does a strict 10s Damage (See Awakened Drug Section, Page 76 Under Laes/Leal Description)... So the character must resist the damage, Will fall unconscious (for 5x1d6 Minutes) regardless of whether they have taken damage (per the description of the Drug itself)
That was the biggest question: does the victim fall unconscious regardless of whether the 10S Damage is soaked? Thanks! Of course, since (as you pointed out), the capsule has to do at least a point of damage from the initial attack first, so it's not actually guaranteed. But it still has a very good chance of taking down a target non-lethally.
The runner is starting out with a small assortment of non-lethal ammo that is more affordable (several ten-packs of gel rounds, a couple of stick-n-shock, and a couple of pepper punch capsules), so these would be for very special occasions.
No need to deal bullet-damage for the drug to take effect, as far as I can tell. The capsule round splats onto them/their armour and gets the drug-dmso cocktail on them, whereupon it soaks through. Unlike injection delivery you don't need to break the skin (or even through their armour).
QUOTE (Dancer @ Oct 18 2009, 03:32 AM)
No need to deal bullet-damage for the drug to take effect, as far as I can tell. The capsule round splats onto them/their armour and gets the drug-dmso cocktail on them, whereupon it soaks through. Unlike injection delivery you don't need to break the skin (or even through their armour).
That is an interpretation, but I would say that there are a significant number of "Impervious" substances that the limitation that it inflict at least a point of real damage is a good one... I have rarely had it fail in game when using a light pistol, so thake that for what it is worth...
QUOTE (Ghost in the Machine @ Oct 18 2009, 01:48 AM)
That was the biggest question: does the victim fall unconscious regardless of whether the 10S Damage is soaked? Thanks! Of course, since (as you pointed out), the capsule has to do at least a point of damage from the initial attack first, so it's not actually guaranteed. But it still has a very good chance of taking down a target non-lethally.
The runner is starting out with a small assortment of non-lethal ammo that is more affordable (several ten-packs of gel rounds, a couple of stick-n-shock, and a couple of pepper punch capsules), so these would be for very special occasions.
The runner is starting out with a small assortment of non-lethal ammo that is more affordable (several ten-packs of gel rounds, a couple of stick-n-shock, and a couple of pepper punch capsules), so these would be for very special occasions.
I would say yes... Unconsciousness is a secondary effect, as is the memory loss... the Damage only controls whether the character actaully takes system shock from the drug...
Non-Lethal methods are very interesting, and your solution (Lael) is pretty elegant, but it is very expensive to carry out... The cost alone would definitely be a good compensation for its effectiveness, as most runners are not going to be carrying around 20 clips (of 20) of these rounds...
Keep the Faith
Actually here's an afterthought... does DMSO work w/ magical compounds?!
I'd think it wouldn't. Magic is magic and all. (though called shot to the mouth is funny!)
lael as a drug is pretty picky in it's method of application, it had to be ingested IIRC. (you can eat many snake venoms and they won't do much of anything as they get digested... but inject them and they're nasty... difference of toxic vs venomous).
I'd think it wouldn't. Magic is magic and all. (though called shot to the mouth is funny!)
lael as a drug is pretty picky in it's method of application, it had to be ingested IIRC. (you can eat many snake venoms and they won't do much of anything as they get digested... but inject them and they're nasty... difference of toxic vs venomous).
QUOTE (Falconer @ Oct 18 2009, 12:50 PM)
Actually here's an afterthought... does DMSO work w/ magical compounds?!
I'd think it wouldn't. Magic is magic and all. (though called shot to the mouth is funny!)
lael as a drug is pretty picky in it's method of application, it had to be ingested IIRC. (you can eat many snake venoms and they won't do much of anything as they get digested... but inject them and they're nasty... difference of toxic vs venomous).
I'd think it wouldn't. Magic is magic and all. (though called shot to the mouth is funny!)
lael as a drug is pretty picky in it's method of application, it had to be ingested IIRC. (you can eat many snake venoms and they won't do much of anything as they get digested... but inject them and they're nasty... difference of toxic vs venomous).
Again with the real life incvading my Dystopic Future...
However, from the fluff, DMSO will turn any toxin (awakened or not) into a Contact delivery system, and "Most" toxins are toxins because they don't play necely (or is that agressively) with the metahuman body... turning an ingested poison into a contact/injected poison may indeed change the properties of how if truly interacts witht eh body, but why waste a lot of time trying to work all of that out... Very few of us here are medical/pharmacology experts... just roll with it and go...
Of Course, some people actually worry about such interactions, so your mileage may vary
Keep the Faith Falconer
Nah, I'm just in a contrary mood today... and enjoying playing devil's advocate.
I really don't care so much, so long as people are having fun and understand grey area is grey area... what the GM says goes.
I really don't care so much, so long as people are having fun and understand grey area is grey area... what the GM says goes.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Oct 18 2009, 01:37 PM)
Nah, I'm just in a contrary mood today... and enjoying playing devil's advocate.
I really don't care so much, so long as people are having fun and understand grey area is grey area... what the GM says goes.
I really don't care so much, so long as people are having fun and understand grey area is grey area... what the GM says goes.
No Worries Mate...
Keep the Faith
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