Going all the way back to 1^st Ed, everybody knows that to execute a successful 'run, you usually need three things:

1) A Street Samurai (or combat Physical Adept) for when the whole world suddently turns to apedrek
2) A Magician to sling mojo and handle Awakened threats
3) A "Technical" specialist, usually a Decker. (No, just because you have a "comlink" now instead of a "cyberdeck" doesn't mean you can start calling them "hackers"; After almost five decades of use, which is longer than the current three decades or so during which "hacker" has come into use, you're not going to resurect a dead term.)

If you had a 4^th party member, usually it was a "face": somebody good with the social stuff to make sure that when Mr. J was screwing you at least you got a reach-around, financially speaking. They also tended to have a good network of contacts to help with legwork and going to ground.

That got me thinking; What if you have a fifth or sixth, or even more members on the team? Once you've filled the three core roles and the fourth typical role, then what? I have often heard the idea of having the Decker play medic because they can double-dip their high LOGic. But then I turn around and twice in as many groups, I've seen a Face/Medic that wasn't Awakened.

So here's my question to you:

What secondary specializations do you like to put together? I am mainly interested in those "extra" people beyond the "core" roles, but if you like having a Samurai that is also a face, I'm dying to hear how it worked out for you... and how you pulled it off.

Have at it, but let's try to keep it polite; I'm trying to stimulate a little discourse and some brainstorming, not "My űbergeek is more űber than your cheeseweazel" pissing contests.

hi
i know there both sams but we usally have a hand to hand person and a shooty person when we have morthen 3 people i havent used but i have an ex docwagon mage waiting in the wings as a backup dude. he isnt very combaty at all... um..... less specialised people we get also who overlap "rolls" so we can do more legwork or if one guy gets shot its ok we have backup..... for ex: our currant group is a street mage, face/hacker(although a person who hacked face would be neat like a realtime plastic surgen this is not the case) a martial artist who does gunfu and used a big axe, and ex cia spook ish guy with sniping tendancies, and im just meat i punch and dodge way fast and im starting to drive, we also had a gunbunnie but he droped reciently

I think you're still in need of a Rigger beyond the Hacker/Decker. The skills can vary enough that you're going to want a dedicated drone jockey, or "double class" the hacker with some rigging capabilities, not too difficult.

We've all seen the Magician/Face, but there's also the Magician / Rigger (what is it with me and drones?) at least those with high Logic. Actually, they're closer to armorers and hardware manufacturers. The concept was a "dwarf smith". The secondaries had little utility during the main run, but he whipped up the explosives they used, tweaked and repaired the equipment, and provided the magical support too. So "rigger" isn't really accurate.

My mundane Infiltrators are usually secondary hackers, as it pertains into bypassing electronic security of some kind. They're also passable Faces.

For 2 Power Points an Adept can become a social chameleon. It's a heavy price of course, but 3-4 points is enough to usually nail down the combat aspect of an Adept. I developed this character before my Mystic Adept social chameleon version which focused pretty much on getting into places undetected. The original was started to develop two distinct personalities, the 'socham' aspect really was meant to give him the ability to lay low after a run and remain anonymous enough in between them. But it started getting used for info-gathering purposes too.

Second sam is always good. Try to have their skills be complementary, not overlapping... one close quarters specialist (meaning inside 50 meters, not 50 decimeters) and one longer range (at least AR ranges, but heavier (Panther or RL) or more diverse (GL/laser) is good). Frequently, the longer range guy can cover the driver/rigger/drone job pretty well... there's a lot of overlap on skills, and you don't see a huge point dump going into being effective at longer ranges.

If your group lacks an expert in it, having #4 be an infiltrator is excellent. Rolling 6-8 dice isn't uncommon for most PCs on an infiltrate check, but that just keeps you out of sight when nobody's looking for you (IE, someone's going to blow a roll pretty quick). A serious expert with some extra gear or 'ware to start really dishing out the penalties to the opposition is the difference between the run going sour partway through (usually when someone with low Edge decides they need to save that last point of it for a FUBAR situation), and the run going off without a hitch. Giving these guys enough electronics/hardware/lockpick skills (real skills, with die pools greater than the 6 max a passkey/sequencer/autopicker give you) to bypass security or at least get into the hardware to directly wire their comm into the system, and have the group's hacker relay through their PAN. Automatics usually gives these guys enough variety in a fight (MP's, SMG's) to give a good accounting of themselves without being weighed down by heavy kit), and something like shock gloves or a stun baton are good if they're forced to get in close.

1. Street Sam/Gun Bunny/Muscle
2. Mage/Shaman
3. Decker

These are definitely the core 3 and you can even sorta relate them to that "Game we do not mention." The Street Sam is a Fighter, the Mage is a Mage, and the Decker is a Rogue/Thief. Arch-types that you will find pretty consistent throughout many classic RPGs.

Now, in my opinion you left out an important part of many, if not most successful Running teams:
The Rigger.

It is true that SR4 has diminished the dedicated rigger to less necessary, but still there is plenty of room for him to improve a team and be worth his split of the payout. Get away vehicles, drones, security hacking... this guy can do it for you. He's your backup electronics guy while your decker is onsite actualy hacking for the pay data. A good role for him as well is Medical Backup. Especially if another character is going to also have same skills. I prefer overlap in roles so that if any 1 member is sidelined, the team can function still at decent capacity and not jsut have to terminate the run. And he can always be an extra gun in the shootout.

The other character that I think is important if not vital to a well rounded team would be:
The Physical Adept.

He is your backup Street Sam and, in fact, can be jsut as deadly. As a bonus, he is also an assistant to your Mage if he can see and fight on the astral. He can be a wonderful stealth guy as well. He needs to have at least one excellent "melee" gun skill and if he takes assault weapons skills, he can be a short range sniper. Toss in some medical skills and he can be your triage guy before you get the downed companion out to the Rigger waiting in the van/helicopter.

Which leaves the "secondary" character you brought up first:
The Face. In my opinion the Face isn't really a dedicated character. Nearly any of the above can be a Face as well. I would suggest the Mage/Shaman , the Adept or even the Decker. Any one (or more of them) can boost up their charisma and with a handful of active skills and knowledge skills perform the Face's job. In most groups I have ever run, there ISN'T a dedicated Face; usually one or two of the other arch-types steps into that role.

So, in my opinion a well constructed SR team would be:

1. Street Sam/Gun Bunny/Muscle: Designed to be deadly (both in close and at range) and stealthy. Possibly heavy weapon skills, but they aren't really usually needed. He really should be able to do other things for the team, be it Face work or medical or something else. A good place is to be a back up driver for the team with both basic ground and air pilot skills as he should already have the necessary Attributes.

2. Mage/Shaman: Designed not only to be offensive, but also ready to defend the team from magical foes. He should be able to handle at least a handgun competently. He is a great candidate to be the Face as well, especially if he has a high charisma due to being a Shaman.

3. Decker: Has to be able to hack, defeat security, handle all electronics and computers and since he is going to be on-site, needs stealth and some decent gun skill. He's a good candidate for extra medical skills.

4. Rigger: Needs to be able to pilot anything for the team. Needs to control some Drones, And really he should be your back-up Decker with good crossover skills. Medical skills are a huge bonus.

5. PhysAd: Should be your primary stealth/ infiltrations guy. He needs high stealth. He should be able to hack/do electronics at least a bit. He needs to be able to see astral and possibly be able to fight against astral threats as well. He should be your supplemental muscle. A good role for him is also as a Face. Medical skills, while completely optional, are a huge benefit.

I think a well rounded team would have these members

A) Stealth specialist
B) leader/coordinator/face
C) Muscle
D) Magician/Mystic Adept
E) Builder/armorer/demolition expert/medic

Actually, if you are very short on players in a playgroup, you might be able to cut the absolutely necessary core to two runners. Due to the damage capability of Spirits and Sprite-piloted vehicles, you can use those as your force multipliers and skip the Samurai. Yes, there are places that will be more difficult for them, but if you don't have the players, there's not a lot you can do about it.

I would say the core duo would be:

1) Logic-based technomancer with access to Machine Sprites. This character can personally handle the hacking, and potentially anything with Logic-based skills thanks to Biowire, such as First Aid. The actual piloting of vehicles/drones would be up to the Sprites, who can have higher skills than the Technomancer can really afford to buy. They can also assist with some skill tests when inhabiting the correct Drone to help (rigged medical bot, for example).

2) Charisma-based mage, especially a maxed out Charisma Elf. In addition to all the useful spells that the Mage can cast, such as Heal, Stunball, or Levitate, the High Charisma leaves them to slide into the Face role. The spirits can be used for such important powers as Conceal or Movement, and can also give Astral protection, more combat capability, or even Counterspelling through Magical Guard.

Infiltration is still going to be a problem, but is probably best solved by Sprites piloting camouflaged personal vehicles like the Horseman, concealed by Spirits. Even with other characters, though, such non-physical characters like Technos and Mages are going to have problems physically infiltrating. Social engineering by the Face type with supporting clues thanks to the Techno might be more effective, although that leaves them without Drone support right at hand if things go wrong.

Beyond those two-
More combat capability through Adepts or Samurai.
Infiltration capability- get that wireless router through the wifi inhibiting paint!

Interesting point/idea. Now, in a game like that, starting with a few extra BP would make a heck of a lot of sense, but the loss of view-points and depth is going to cost you a LOT in terms of redundancy and depth, but it works.

As to your comment on infiltration, depends on the Mage's spells, now doesn't it? Flak + Improved Invis + Levitate + Silence, even at no more than F3 say, gets you past an awful lot of security, and some of that can be extended to your cohort. Then a spirit with Concealment. *shrugs*

To mis-quote Yorgi from the original xXx - "Everything's okay... with enough Karma"

One of the things that I've found that is both wonderful and problematic about SR4 is that if built properly a Street Samurai can often cover "E" while still performing admirably as the muscle. It stems from the fact that attributes, SkillWires and attribute enhancing 'ware are all extremely cost effective compared to skills, an issue that's further exacerbated by the fact that Logic and Agility govern a disproportionate number of tests. This is wonderful in the sense that it gives a well-built Samurai something to do besides combat, but it does lead to the awkward situation in which an augmented combat monster can easily end up being a better "Jack-Of-All-Trades" than someone who intentionally sank over 150 points into skills.

Then again, I can tell you from personal experience that it's pretty awkward when the Samurai gets shot up and everyone suddenly realizes that he was the only guy with any medical skill, so it never really hurts to have a backup plan.

Hackers and Mages are both character types that seem stuck in their specialty more, because they need to have one or two high skills, a number of tertiary skills, and a lot of points sunk into gear/spells, simply to be good at their core function. They can branch out, but it costs them. A Charisma-tradition mage, though, can be turned into a secondary face relatively painlessly.

Street samurai do slightly better, since 'ware can not only give them combat buffs, but enhance other things, making them very cost-effective. Adepts are similar, since they have access to powers that are useful for a variety of situations. A street samurai or adept can easily have other roles - but that depends on how badly the group needs a dedicated combat specialist. If everyone else can contribute to a firefight, then you can branch out quite a bit - be a bit of a face, a bit of a break-in guy, etc. However, if the group lacks in firepower, then they probably need the mix of heavy firepower, combat durability, and speed that a full-fledged sammie can bring.

That's true. The Cybered Sam with Skillwires 3 is a pretty awesome all-rounder. Heck, Skillsofts can be had open source up to Rating 4, so it saves him a lot of nuyen. Up to the GM of course, but it's an option. A base Logic of 3, some logic enhancers, and a Rating 3 skillsoft provides a decent pool for hardware or armourer tests. Not to mention a load of other stuff.

The problem with that really are the Skillwires.

I have a couple things that I've noticed, and work well together. I am not targeting about numbers synergy here, more "capability synergy."

1. Infiltrator+Drone Rigger = Doesn't even have to be all that good a rigger, but the ability to move into a place, insert drones that otherwise couldn't have gotten in there, and know what's going on with the communications of the place helps a lot. If this guy's good enough, you don't even have to have a combat hacker, since he can plug in a communications system that will let an off-site hacker do his bidness. Plus, strategically placed smart weapons mounts rock.

2. Mage + B/R guy/Juryrigger = depends a lot on your GM, but a number of manipulation spells seem like they should be really powerful with a character who knows how to use them. Shape Concrete, Shape Metal, Fix, Pulse, Animate, all seem like spells that should be VERY useful if the character has domain knowledge in what to do with them. Simple things like putting nice holes in doors or blocking other ones; or more fun stuff like turning the vanes on the building's exhaust fans around so that they intake the neuro-stun gas you put right next to it. Plus, "Shape Metal" gives you a very expensive machine shop.

1) Street Sam for general combat needs, skillwires as secondary
2) Adept for scouting, general combat secondary
3) Mage for Awakened, depends on tradition for secondary
4) Technomancer for Matrix, depends on stream for secondary

Due to the amount of potential firepower a Mage and a Technomancer/Hacker-Rigger can provide, I think a team could do without a Street Sam.

I don't get why people think Street Sammie's bring 'combat power' to the table. Reality is if you can carry illegal hardware in the area, a Rigger always provides more firepower. Street sam can provide total undetectability though, which is quite pro.

Guns and grenades aren't exactly undetectable. If you want undetectable you use mages or close combat adepts. There are lots more cybeware scanners and MADs in most places than people with astral perception and good assensing dice.

But, yes, a drone rigger can provide huge amounts of firepower, at least until someone steals his drones or jams him.

It depends where you are going obviously. If it's a secure location, I'd be planning on Astral Defence. Certainly, I'd expect anything you're commissioning runners to attack would atleast warrant watchers in defence, at which point those are hardly undetectable.

At this point only a Street Sammie is truly indistinguishable from a civilian.

Jamming and drone theft doesn't work against riggers obviously - it's impossible to buy a jammer that can actually beat defenses, and even if you do beat defences the drone is still fully autonomous so it's still going to be killing a lot. As we both know, you can just switch hacking to 'off' and any rigger is just going to do that - even if it means duct taping a sat com onto the drone. The only thing that works is escalation.

The above doesn't really apply if you are playing a gutter punks game obviously, but at basic book power levels or higher.

I gotta say, I think riggers are a bit overrated. Thing is, drones are autonomous. Cars are autonomous. Planes? Autonomous. You slap some hard/soft upgrades on any machine and it'll preform in a more than serviceable capacity. Sure it'll never do as good a job as a crackerjack rigger, but you can't argue with economy when it comes to startup.

I mean, a Steel Lynx with Pilot 4, Targeting 4, and Fuzzy Logic circuits throws 10 dice with whatever nasty business you strap on top of it. Not bad for a nuyen cost less than one skill point in bp. Oh, and it requires absolutely no skills on the part of the operator.

Hell, you can turn a drone into an unstoppable killing machine.

Rounded up! That means that a body 4 large drone can fit 2 weapon mounts, or a reinforced weapon mount if you want to, say, strap a heavy autocannon on it for 11p -6ap full auto attacks. Load with APDS for 11p -10ap. That's a kitty with a big, big roar.

Give the two dice that a watcher has to see anything I'd take my chances with this rather then a 450 cyberware scanner. And in SR4a concealment means they can't mechanically notice you even if you are wearing bright pink prison jumpsuits in the black tie ball if you have an F6 spirit.


What defines a "street sammie" to you? To me it's heavy cyberware and weapons.


I thought everyone on Dumpshock was required to participate in the consensual illusion that the SR4 hacking rules were not an awful box of "stuff"?

Yeah, depends where you are going I guess, ymmv. I typically have mages feature reasonably regularly at secure installations or high profile events, as assensing is something that everyone can do, and there are 70 million magically aware people, many of whom are going to come from poor backgrounds who'll leap at the chance for a good job.



Characters that don't use magic and are not obviously riggers or faces. In essence. I guess. I don't encourage stuff that cannot be removed that is illegal because as you point out cyberware scanners are cheap.

To further add fuel to the debate - the problem is exacerbated by the typical DP your NPCs are throwing around.

If you are a highly specialised hacker, becoming secondary at anything other than a logic linked skill becomes problematic because you are simply throwing around less dice. Conversely, it is this same weakness that makes an elven shaman with a high Charisma a strong build.

It doesn't take much - generally speaking - to have a passable secondary skill of 9DP, almost regardless of circumstance. The downside is that often it may require enough diversion of BP or nuyen that you cannot do it without compromising your primary ability, putting you in a position of questioning the build in the first place. Also, if 9DP isn't passable for a secondary skill in your group, it doesn't become worthwhile.

I like the high CHA elven shaman or technomancers builds doubling as a face personally. I also like the Logic linked guru hackers. For shits and grins I was looking at a cyberzombie NPC rigger/street samurai but that was more for novelty (and I had an interesting concept/twist behind it). I would like to see more street samurai /combat hacker types but the build is much harder to pull off effectively (now) in SR4(A) than ever before.

- J.

To simplify:

Anything linked to either Charisma, Logic or Agility has the potential to work but if you want to have a secondary area, those skills must all link to the same key attribute for maximum effectiveness.

- J.

Except that hackers don't really need a good logic score all things considered. But yeah, hemetic mages ARE ALSO the first aid'er and the surgeon if you have one.

That's exactly why I tend to emphasize the Swiss army knife aspect of the Street Samurai a bit more than most people when I build one. The Samurai should be prepared to be the guy who says "Fine, I'll handle this," whenever there isn't an obvious solution to a problem or when the plan goes wrong. After all, you'll never be able to keep up with the firepower of a Rigger ran drone squad or a dedicated summoner who's had time to prepare. But that doesn't make you useless. A good samurai needs virtually no prep time to be deadly and they should have enough sense 'ware and tricks up their sleeve that getting the drop on them is very, very hard indeed. A Samurai should essentially operate like a violent boy scout with authority issues.

After all, one of the biggest advantages of being a Samurai is the simple fact that your specialty is an area that many characters are going to want to at least consider dabbling in: personal defense. For example, a Face has to strongly consider spending just enough points on Dodge and Pistols to have a fighting chance at getting out alive if the mark gets wise and sometimes a mage is better served by firing a Predator loaded with APDS instead of trying to beat a drone's object resistance. By contrast, once the Samurai blows some points on his weapon of choice and some evasion skills, his self-defense needs are already taken care of. The few dozen points that many other archetypes would have spent on defensive skills can and should go to having SkillWires and a useful sideline or two. There's basically no excuse for having a Samurai who can't crack a maglock and their high Reaction scores make them a natural fit for emergency wheel man duties if something happen to the rigger.

Strongly agree - the street sammie is definately the utility player. SR4A's massive nerf to skillwires did make this archetype worse, which was a shame. I hardly feel it was at all warranted.

The social engineer, or (ha|de)cker/face: uses the Matrix mostly for legwork and to get data, most of it public ("so in her profile, the accountant keeps complaining about how she breaks every computer system she touches"). Then uses this data to get access to someone ("This is the computer department, there are some troubles with your entries in our database. Did you experience some trouble with our network lately? To fix this, I'll need you to toggle remote access, for this."). Use this someone to get a better access on the Matrix... and keep on doing this.
Sometime, you can do the entire run n your own this way: rather than infiltrate the maximum security facility to steal the prototype, just have it shipped to you by someone who thinks he's doing the right thing.

The planner, can be a secondary specialization of any high logic/intuition character. All you need is a few knowledge skills, some datasearch and a good browse program can help, and then you should be able to plan everything and immediately see a mistake in your plans. You'll just need to convince your GM that you can get something out of these knownledge checks you make, though.

Yup. It's also very nice if you can get the security staff to help you load the prototype onto your truck.