Dumpshock Forums > Edge Reroll

Lilt

Oct 18 2009, 11:03 PM

I recently started playing in a new group and was surprised when the topic of Edge re-rolls came up. I have always played that edge dice allowed you to re-roll all of the failures on a test. My GM's interpretation is that you can only re-roll if no dice on the test score hits at-all.

The group is in agreement that there is ambiguity in the wording, although other players say that the sentence parsed as written reads that you can only re-roll when no hits are scored at-all.

Here's the wording:

You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.

Now, The GM is always right, but it got me wondering what the common consensus was on the topic. I did a search and found a thread here which agrees with my interpretation, but I was wondering whether there was anyone else using the other interpretation, or if there was any official line on the topic.

pbangarth

Oct 18 2009, 11:05 PM

I and everyone I have played with use the interpretation that failures are re-rolled, even if there were successes.

Glyph

Oct 18 2009, 11:18 PM

The wording isn't ambiguous at all. It means exactly what it says. If you roll the dice and don't get as many successes as you would like, you can re-roll the dice that didn't get hits.

Lilt

Oct 18 2009, 11:32 PM

QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 19 2009, 12:18 AM)

The wording isn't ambiguous at all. It means exactly what it says. If you roll the dice and don't get as many successes as you would like, you can re-roll the dice that didn't get hits.

Yeah, I was trying to word the question for the poll in a way that was explicitly clear and my first attempt was worded almost exactly how it was in the book.

Right now, however, at the gaming table the opinion is 3-against-1 that the wording is ambiguous and that the proper reading is you can't re-roll if you get one or more hits.

deek

Oct 19 2009, 12:28 PM

I can certainly see it both ways. The "that did not score a hit" could modify either the dice or the test. It is closer to test than dice, but "on a single test" is also modifying dice...or at least I think that is how it works.

The way I have always read it, that edge allows you to re-roll all your failures, but is limited to just a single test, which comes into play more when dealing with extended tests.

DuctShuiTengu

Oct 19 2009, 12:28 PM

QUOTE (Lilt @ Oct 19 2009, 01:03 AM)

Here's the wording:

You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.

Hmmm... grammar comprehension: as written, "that did not score a hit" is a subordinate clause that refers to test, not dice. However, misplaced modifiers are also some of the most common grammatical errors, so that could be a mistake.

Also, if that were the intention, the entire clause "all of the dice on" could be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence at all. This would give a more concise sentence and clarify the meaning, "You may re-roll a single test that did not score a hit." (Needless verbosity eats up word-count and causes ambiguity.)

What's actually intended by the rules? I'm not sure. I'd always read it as rerolling any part of a roll that wasn't hits. However, I can see going either way.

Dragnar

Oct 19 2009, 12:49 PM

I can't even begin to understand how that sentence is ambiguous in the least.

"that did not score a hit" grammatically refers to the dice, not the test. And it's a relative clause hanging on "dice" and not a general subordinate clause.

Besides, tests never score a "hit" anyways, they score a "success", which is precisely the reason a single die reaching the target number is refered to as a "hit" now, and not as a "success" as in earlier editions. So you can't have a test scoring a hit, just as you can't have a die scoring a success, which makes it easy to see what's being refered to. To stop that exact problem. Let me guess, you guys played 3rd Ed a lot?

Vittek

Oct 19 2009, 12:51 PM

My take:

You may re-roll all of the dice, on a single test, that did not score a hit.

"On a single test" is obviously used to express that you can't reroll all of the dice in an extended test that were not hits.
Otherwise it would have said:

You may re-roll all of the dice of a single test, that did not score at least one hit.

Seems a bit different.

Blade

Oct 19 2009, 12:51 PM

I read it as you could reroll everything that wasn't hits, but I houserule it the other way.

Traul

Oct 19 2009, 01:43 PM

It does not make sense to only reroll a test that has scored 0 hits.

If your test was threshold 3, you could reroll if you scored 0 hits, but not if you scored 2 hits? They are both failures.

Prime Mover

Oct 19 2009, 01:48 PM

Really I think your thinking way too hard about this. Reroll failures in an attempt to succeed, pretty simple mechanic.
(I understand the thinking on a subject so hard you make it harder then it needs to be, I'm one of those folks myself. I'm getting better though.)

AndyZ

Oct 19 2009, 02:38 PM

You'd also figure that you could reroll the 1s, thus destroying a glitch or critical glitch. However, my GM doesn't allow that. I'd be curious to see others' impressions on that part.

pbangarth

Oct 19 2009, 02:41 PM

A 1 is not a hit, so you can reroll it, but you have to keep count of how many 1s you rolled in total, including the rerolls. Your rerolls could actually turn a mere failure into a glitch.

Malachi

Oct 19 2009, 03:10 PM

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Oct 19 2009, 08:41 AM)

A 1 is not a hit, so you can reroll it, but you have to keep count of how many 1s you rolled in total, including the rerolls. Your rerolls could actually turn a mere failure into a glitch.

I play that a Glitch negates the ability for a "reroll failures" Edge usage. If a Glitch is rolled, all that can be done with Edge is to spend it to negative the Glitch, reducing it to a simple failure. If a Critical Glitch is rolled, the Edge can only reduce it to a regular Glitch.

Karoline

Oct 19 2009, 04:06 PM

Unfortunately RAW technically states that you could only use edge to reroll a test that came up with 0 hits, but as others have stated, it is an absurdly easy grammatical mistake to make.

I figure that it means that you reroll all dice that didn't get a hit like you do, and seemingly everyone else on the thread does. One of those 'intention vs actual wording' things, because otherwise you might be sad that you rolled some hits, because it isn't enough to succeed, but it is too many to have a reroll be an option.

Wording it "You may re-roll all the dice that didn't score a hit from a single test." but even that is slightly ambiguous in wording, and could still potentially be interpreted the wrong way. That is one of the problems with English, it is poor at making unambiguous statements easily, though admittedly many languages suffer from this problem.

I suppose "You may use edge to re-roll all dice that didn't score a hit, but may only do so for a single test." is a bit better, but sounds clunky.

AndyZ

Oct 19 2009, 04:20 PM

The 20th Anniversary book writes it "You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit." That seems pretty identical to what Karoline suggests.

Jhaiisiin

Oct 19 2009, 04:25 PM

The line is the same in SR4 and SR4A. Two separate people have mentioned how it's "grammatically correct" in two different ways. Honestly, unless someone here is actually an English teacher or a Dev-Who-Knows, then we may be open to interpretation. That said, I've got English 102 in a couple of hours, so I'll run it by the Doc and see what she has to say about it.

EDIT: Though if we look at SR4, pg 55-56 (SR4A 62), it defines a hit as the result of a die. It then defines a success test as a test which measures the results of the dice rolled, totaling their hits. It never says totaling their successes.

Proof as required (emphasis mine):

QUOTE (SR4 pg 56)

SUCCESS TESTS
A Success Test is the standard test to see if a character can accomplish a given task, and how well. Use Success Tests when the character is exercising a skill or ability for immediate effect and is not directly opposed by another person or force.
To make a Success Test, the character rolls her dice pool and counts the number of hits, as described above.

QUOTE (SR4A pg 62)

SUCCESS TESTS
A Success Test is the standard test to see if a character can accomplish a given task, and how well. Use Success Tests when the character is exercising a skill or ability for immediate effect and is not directly opposed by another person or force.
To make a Success Test, the character rolls her dice pool and counts the number of hits, as described above

Adarael

Oct 19 2009, 04:25 PM

I've always done a "reroll all the dice that weren't hits", because I am old skool and that is what Karma Pool could do.

pbangarth

Oct 19 2009, 04:42 PM

QUOTE (Malachi @ Oct 19 2009, 11:10 AM)

I play that a Glitch negates the ability for a "reroll failures" Edge usage. If a Glitch is rolled, all that can be done with Edge is to spend it to negative the Glitch, reducing it to a simple failure. If a Critical Glitch is rolled, the Edge can only reduce it to a regular Glitch.

This is true, but if the original roll is not a glitch, then non-hits can be re-rolled with a use of EDG. Those extra dice could have enough 1s to raise the ratio of 1s to total dice to half or greater. It would then become a glitch. Given that you would have already used a point of EDG on that test, you would be out of luck for negating the glitch or re-rolling again.

Ahhh... remember the days of Karma Pool? Use 1 point to reroll failures, then 2 to reroll any remaining failures, then 3 to get those last few up to snuff, etc. until experienced characters could be guaranteed success? Those heady days when we were Kings!

Karoline

Oct 19 2009, 04:47 PM

QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Oct 19 2009, 11:25 AM)

The line is the same in SR4 and SR4A. Two separate people have mentioned how it's "grammatically correct" in two different ways. Honestly, unless someone here is actually an English teacher or a Dev-Who-Knows, then we may be open to interpretation. That said, I've got English 102 in a couple of hours, so I'll run it by the Doc and see what she has to say about it.

EDIT: Though if we look at SR4, pg 55-56 (SR4A 62), it defines a hit as the result of a die. It then defines a success test as a test which measures the results of the dice rolled, totaling their hits. It never says totaling their successes.

Proof as required (emphasis mine):

I'm guessing that your English teacher will say 1. It is somewhat ambiguous and 2. It should technically be read that only if the test overall didn't score a hit can you do the re-roll. I'm no English major because I suck horridly at spelling (Thank Firefox for spellcheck), but I am fairly good at grammar.

Karoline

Oct 19 2009, 04:48 PM

QUOTE (Malachi @ Oct 19 2009, 10:10 AM)

I play that a Glitch negates the ability for a "reroll failures" Edge usage. If a Glitch is rolled, all that can be done with Edge is to spend it to negative the Glitch, reducing it to a simple failure. If a Critical Glitch is rolled, the Edge can only reduce it to a regular Glitch.

Doesn't a glitch with edge spent on it become a regular success, and a critical glitch with edge spent on it become a regular failure? (Since a glitch requires success and a critical glitch requires failure)

Malachi

Oct 19 2009, 05:17 PM

QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 19 2009, 10:48 AM)

Doesn't a glitch with edge spent on it become a regular success, and a critical glitch with edge spent on it become a regular failure? (Since a glitch requires success and a critical glitch requires failure)

Right, I didn't say that quite right. A Glitch becomes a regular success, and a Critical Glitch becomes just a Glitch (not a regular failure). It might not be exactly to RAW but that's how I play it.

Lilt

Oct 19 2009, 05:38 PM

QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Oct 19 2009, 05:25 PM)

The line is the same in SR4 and SR4A. Two separate people have mentioned how it's "grammatically correct" in two different ways. Honestly, unless someone here is actually an English teacher or a Dev-Who-Knows, then we may be open to interpretation. That said, I've got English 102 in a couple of hours, so I'll run it by the Doc and see what she has to say about it.

Yes, as I said in my original post, it'd be nice to hear from an official source on the subject. Maybe we'll see a re-wording in the next errata?

Now, I don't think it's ever really possible to argue RAI unless you're a 'Dev-Who-Knows', but I consider the wording 'a hit' rather than 'any hits' to be indicative that the 'did not score' is referring to individual dice rather than the test as a whole.

QUOTE

You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.

You could possibly even argue that because 'a hit' is singular, you're screwed if you roll one hit, but could re-roll if you scored 2 or more hits. That wouldn't make sense as a rule, and I don't think I'll ever see anyone playing that way, but I thought I'd mention it for argument's sake.

Trench

Oct 20 2009, 04:52 AM

Technically ambiguous.

"of the dice" is a prepositional phrase. It is meant to clarify meaning, not obscure it. Take it out to simplify the sentence.

"on a single test" - prepositional phrase - Take it out.

"You may re-roll all that didn't score a hit."

The real problem is whether that last phrase is referring to "test". This wording seems to be the worst possible way to try to convey that idea. As Karoline pointed out, tests are not said to score hits. Dice score hits on tests. ~SR4A p62

BTW, as I interpret it, this is the most effective use of Edge.

[edited for brevity]

Jhaiisiin

Oct 20 2009, 04:56 AM

QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 19 2009, 09:47 AM)

I'm guessing that your English teacher will say 1. It is somewhat ambiguous and 2. It should technically be read that only if the test overall didn't score a hit can you do the re-roll. I'm no English major because I suck horridly at spelling (Thank Firefox for spellcheck), but I am fairly good at grammar.

So forgot to post the followup to this. The good ole Doc did confirm that the sentence is horribly ambiguous and in dire need of either punctuation or additional wording to make it clear. She went further to say that either interpretation we have right now is accurate simply because of the poor word choice involved.

She also complimented us gamers for actually debating English and grammar. She's quite proud to know that not everyone is forgetting the essentials. Yay go us!

Muspellsheimr

Oct 20 2009, 05:09 AM

In conclusion, because both interpretations are grammatically correct (so to speak...), the Rules as Written in this instance can only be determined by the given definition of the phrases being used.

As others have already stated, a Test cannot score a Hit - only Dice can score a Hit. As such, the "that did not score a hit" applies to Dice, not Test. The group of the OP is incorrect - you may use Edge to reroll any dice that did not score a Hit, regardless of how many Hits where achieved, by RAW.

Lilt

Oct 20 2009, 09:29 PM

I tried emailing the address listed as "Shadowrun Contact Information" (info@shadowrun4.com) with the following request for clarification:

QUOTE

Hi, I have a question concerning the rules for spending edge to re-roll failures in Shadowrun 4th edition.

The topic is being discussed in a thread on the dumpshock forums, where there is agreement that the wording is ambiguous on when it is possible to re-roll failures. The wording is identical in both 4th edition and the Anniversary edition, and it is not covered in the errata.

The books say:
You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.

The ambiguity is over whether you can re-roll the dice that did not score hits when the test as a whole scores one or more hits. One reading says that you re-roll the dice that didn't score hits themselves, the other says that you can only re-roll if no hits are scored on the test. I.E.: A character rolls 7 dice and scores 1 hit. Can they spend a point of edge to re-roll the 6 dice that did not score hits?

3rd edition Karma Pool allowed dice to be rerolled in this fashion, and most of the games I have played in have used it this way. It's arguable that the wording doesn't allow this however, thus some clarification would be nice. Is it likely that this wording could be clarified in a future errata?

Thanks,

Lilt

There's another address I was considering sending it to, contact@catalystgamelabs.com, but I decided the Shadowrun address was probably the way to go.

Lilt

Dec 7 2009, 10:33 AM

Hi all, bit of a bump, but this one with a reply from Catalyst to the email I sent above:

QUOTE

Okay, let me be clear that this is only _my opinion_. I have not run this by everyone else at Catalyst or put it to a concerted freelancer evaluation. So, having said that, in my opinion you can spend a point of Edge to re-roll the dice that were not successes; you may retain the successes rolled on the first attempt.

I'll think about an errata on this whenever it is that I start thinking about SR4A errata.

Jason H.

darthmord

Dec 7 2009, 02:14 PM

Lilt, that's how I interpreted that section when I first read it. You can spend a point of Edge to re-roll all dice that did not score a success/hit.

Ascalaphus

Dec 7 2009, 02:55 PM

In my game, you roll the dice that didn't hit; the hits stay on the table. The logic is this: you're never punished for getting more hits than needed. Getting 1 hit is always better than 0.

As for glitches: if you glitch before the reroll, then the glitch remains (you haven't spent edge to remove it.) If the reroll also glitches, then you get additional nasties (maybe treat like critical glitch.)

etherial

Dec 7 2009, 04:04 PM

My philosophy is that if SR4A isn't clear and SR3 is, go with SR3. If it looks like SR4 is trying to do the same thing as SR3, then it probably is.

MYST1C

Dec 10 2009, 07:21 AM

An interesting discussion.

That problem has never occured with the German SR4 as the wording there makes the meaning absolutely clear:
"Sie dürfen alle Würfel bei einer Probe, die keinen Erfolg erzielt haben, noch einmal werfen." (German SR4A, p. 99)
Since "haben" is the plural form of the verb it clearly refers to "Würfel" (dice) but not the singular "Probe" (test).

Otherwise the wording would've been "Sie dürfen alle Würfel bei einer Probe, die keinen Erfolg erzielt hat, noch einmal werfen."
Now the verb is in singular form and refers to "Probe", not "Würfel".

(Note that German SR4 calls a hit "Erfolg" which actually means success in English. It's one of several rather poor translation choices - keeping SR3 terms but with SR4 meaning - that caused quite some confusion for long-time players chaging editions.)