I dont know if anyone else noticed, but the surest way to kill a vatjob troll is to run it over. Lets assume a Body of 10 and 10 points of impact armor, along with platelet factories, VS a Eurocar Westwind with body 10 and armor 6.

Give the driver a modest Drive skill + Reaction + handling pool of 12, for 4 hits.

The troll has a defense pool of 9, for 3 hits. 1 net hit for the car.

The Westwind is cruising at 61 meters per turn, so the damage is 21p with an armor modifier of 1/2.

The troll soaks with 15 dice for 5 successes, -1 more box from the platelet factory is 15 boxes of damage. Deadlier than an elephant gun, while the car gets away with about 5 boxes of damage(half - soak).

I think roadkilling a cybertroll should total your car! The car should take damage based on the Body of the target, not half its own body.

Hey, try this: You are in an armoured car. Someone tries to block you in, and you do the proper course of action:
you try to ram through...congratulations! Everyone in YOUR car dies!

Unless you wear your seatbelts, in which case an obscure rule in Arsenal states that no one takes any damage from the collision.

Neither in your car, nor in the other car . . Yes, this stuff is seriously borked in 4th ed it seems ^^

Yeah, those new European cars just bounce off each other it seems...

Safety first!

Bye
Thanee

It gets progressively worse too.
Imagine what happens if a Tank with high Body but not quite so high Armor crashes into the Body1 Elf on the Street . .
Granted, the elf might be made into fine red paste, but the tank may just be halfway to complete damage too . .

I think the rules are meant for crashes with vehicles (two or more) or maybe walls and such *g*. Good thing we are all clever GM's who know when to ignore a rule and make something up on the spot... right, guys?

Also: Even a cybered Troll has not enough mass to kill an armored car. Run him over and be done with it. I will not really ever give any vehicle more than 1-2 damage for running someone over. Of course the following crashtest could get you some damage more.

In the third edition the whole maneuvre-score speed-differentiated mess was slow andcumbersome... now it is just... insanely stupid, but at least quick. (And as long as nobody in my group learns the rules i just use them as guidelines. Just roll some dice and say: hm hm... your vehicles takes 4 damage, roll against that with half impact for personal damage... and slap anyone who objects *g*)

Ahem, have you seen some Crashes with Boars, Deer and the such?

Yeah, cars are pretty regularly brought down by hitting a man-sized or larger mass. So that part makes sense.

Aside from that, sounds like rigging continues to be the bit that kills Shadowrun

ahem.. "ARMORED" car, i wrote... you know that thingies which weigh... umm (checking) . And even a normal car would still be able to drive. (Even if it doesn't look pretty, might be out of alignment... and needs its cooling replaced befor the engine is ruined. And yeah a "Smart" or other tinytiny microcar... yeah all damage goes directly into the engine (and from there into the passangers *g*) might be destroyed after a hit of an cybered troll.

P.S. Just checked some stats for armored vehicles (yeah i waste my time for this) A Mercedes S-Class with highest security weighs 3.75 tons empty and can take a LOT of punishment/explosions. With something like that you can pretty much roll over anything. And it would be something like a 12 body / 15 Armor vehicle.

I know a guy whos car got totalled because of a small yappy-type dog. You know Cesar-commercial dogs? Yes, the dog turned into a thin red paste smeared across the road, but the car had like massive amounts of damage. It was german too, so almost an armored vehicle..

Those small dogs play hell with the under-carriage.

It does depend on how you hit them. A coyote charged my car once, and got stuck in the wheel well while I was doing 55. I ended up in a controlled spin into the shoulder ditch. A quick corpse removal, alignment, and bath, and the car was just fine.

I guess this is where being a hacker is a good thing. Take control of someone's econocar, crank up the speed and aim for the cyber-troll. Who cares what damage happens to the car as long as it makes the troll a red skid mark on the pavement.

That will teach the troll to shoot a vindicator at me!

funny enough, arsenal reintroduced the speed diff, making the SR4 rules virtually identical to SR3 sans the opening rigger pool open test.

and i never understood the complaints about vehicle combat in SR3 in the first place...

Of course its quick. You could in fact replace the rules with:
If armor higher than body:
car is fine, all metahumans in contact* with the car die.
If body is higher than armor:
car is totaled, all metahumans in contact with the car die.

*Inside and out.

In reality those "car hitting living thing" situations play out in very different ways.
Two family members of mine (that i can tink of right now) have hit a deer in a car:
The first one was driving a VW Passat, the deer was dead on the spot and after the incident he had to replace the motor or at least a lot of stuff surrounding the motor (its been a while i cant remember, but it was expensive!)
The second family member was driving a Citroen, the deer was dead on the spot just like with the Passat, but in this case, the was only the tiniest of scratches in the paint to show for it.

Point being, yeah, being hit by a car hurts, and if you are a deer you will most likely die, the same might be true for larger beings.
Also, the 61 meters per combat turn you mention is 73,2km/hour. that is not a speed most cars reach in 20 meters of driving. and 1-2 tons comming with that amount of speed should hurt!

hmm, 61 meters a turn, thats 1 over the defined "running" rate of a westwind...

still, unless he was on the highway, or similar non-urban road, i would say its more likely the vehicle is traveling at "walking" speed.

Yeah, collisions in SR hurt. Our group once took out a Mitsuhama strike team in milspec armor...

...with a bulldozer.

Just an ordinary bulldozer.

We were coming out of an underground blacksite facility in the bottom of an old quarry pit, and me and the rigger were trapped behind some flames while the rest of the team battled it out with the corpsec. Our mage was geeked, our sam was taking heavy fire, and we were frantic at being stuck on the sidelines--so the GM took pity on us and told us we found an old bulldozer in the underground garage.

Worst mistake he ever made.

Rigger jacked into the bulldozer, plowed though the flaming wreckage, ran down the strike team and took their fraggin' plane!

We got it quickie-repaired and modded with stealth systems, and then took off for Hong Kong.

That wasn't the plane that you wanted to install cyberarms on was it?

Cybertroll weighs up to 700 pounds and is made largely of bulletproof materials.

I'm not very familiar with the driving rules but I would think that the car would have to take that damage too... In a way, hitting a troll with a car going 61 meters/turn is the same thing as hitting a car with a troll going 61 meters/turn.

You know, i never looked at it from that direction O.o

Except that the toll has lower mass than the car.

Work = Mass * (velocity squared)

More work (in the physics sense) is applied to the troll due to the car's higher mass (even if a troll weighs 700 pounds, that's not even half of an econocar).

There's the same amount of energy in the system, but the car has more of it and transfers that energy into the troll (ever played with one of these?)

Back to the OP: how in the first place do you get the troll hit by a car? A sammy can almost dodge bullets and he can perceive the car coming a bajillion meters away. He should even be able to dodge it by jumping above.

EDIT: OK, I checked the ramming rules.

First, there is a -3 dice penalty for running vehicle. Then, if you vehicle is not just starting up, the troll gets to notice it at least one turn before, so he can get full defence or find an escape somewhere.

With the troll on full defence and -3 dice for the pilot, the troll gets a better dice pool.

Have your Friends (or allied Drones) shoot the troll and then run him over? Can't dodge the slow car when you have used all your actions to avoid the fast bullets...

Keep the Faith

No: full defense lasts untill your next action phase. Spend one action, dodge as many bullets and cars as you want.

There's usually not much left to see aside from a 50ft long 5ft wide blood streak when a semi hits a deer.....

Usually when a semi hits a deer it is more of a cone shaped spray for about 20 feet long, and also covering the lane to the left and right of impact. Then there is the long blood smear as it drips off the front. Also, most of the time only small chunks are visible, no large pieces.

Great topic though. At our last session we had to try to stop a car going through a housing development, to kidnap a kid. Since there was a speed limit of 25kmh, we just had the troll step out in front of it. Almost any human would be able to walk away from that, so a troll would probably do more damage to the car than the car would do to it. Trolls do NOT have crumple zones so a regular car would take a lot of damage due to the trolls density.

Or your troll could have played it like Sin City: jump through the windshield and kick the driver's head off his shoulders

Ful defense last until you run out of dice... if you have a dice pool of 10, well then 5 friends each firing 2 shots at the character will cause him to lose his pool, at which point the car smashes him flat...

Hell, even a very good street Sam could do that with split dice pools and 2 fully automatic machine pistols and say 15 dice...

Point is, regardles of whether you are just dodging or are on Full Defense, you will eventually run out of dice... then the car has its way with you...

Curtains at that point for the sad troll...

Keep the Faith