Adept with the following powers:
Magic Sense
Motion Sense
Temperature Tolerance 2
Commanding Voice
Animal Empathy 1
Mystic Armor 2
Improved Reflexes 1

And the following stats
4 Body
3 Agility
3(4) Reaction
4 Strength
4 Charisma
3 Intuition
3 Logic
4 Will
5 Edge
5 Magic

Has 3 Athletics, 3 Close Combat, and 2 Influence skill groups, and the Adept, Karate (2) and Wrestling (3) qualities (with the riposte, throw, set up, and finishing move maneuvers.)
He goes by the street name The Saint, as he's a human who considers himself a Warrior of God, who particularly targets Humanis, black mages, and blood mages....
He's wearing FFBA (full suit), PPP (all of it) and Bike Racing Armor as his primary armor....and uses a sword and unarmed as his primary weaponry.
Have I done anything over(or under-)powered here?

Your dp for combat will be pretty lowish with just AGI 3 and 3 in your main combat skills.

Unless I'm missing something, this is not a guy who is good at martial arts, but one that is pretty average at it.

Edge can certainly help, but will only get you that far.

Bye
Thanee

Drop the Close Combat group. Just buy Unarmed Combat and Blades, it is cheaper since you do not use Clubs.

With Commanding Voice, you want a higher Leadership skill than that. It would probably be better to drop the skill group here too so you can favor Leadership.

You could lower your STR, BOD and WIL to 3 and keep the same hit points and melee damage. This would allow you to increase your AGI and REA that are currently pretty low for a physical type. I would also lower the LOG a bit since you have absolutely no use for it.

Your Agility is a bit too low. Also, maybe Astral Sight would come in handy?

There's low-powered and there's just suicidally low. Agi 3 and CC 3 won't get you very far. Also consider the Martial Art Maneuvers: Iaijutsu and Blind Fighting. If he's fighting Mages or goes into dangerous places, he'll want the ability to quick draw anything and fight reasonably well no matter the visibility.

Does he have any ranged skills?

And to min-max even further, do you really need Cha 4? Plonk that into Strength to get 5, or to Agility to boost it to 4. I know you have Commanding Voice, but your primary role is not that effective.

That's a nice set of Power Points. Though I don't know how useful it'll all be. Temperature Tolerance? I say get better insulation in gear. Consider Counter-strike or Combat Sense. I know you have Mystic Armor in there but since you can't go Astral half of that is a waste. Combat Sense II costs the same in points and grants you +2 dice to defend yourself against anything, including surprise tests.

A much better bargain to me than +2/+2 armour for a full power point. Also ties into the whole Martial Arts thing.

I'm going to have to agree witht he overall sentement - just a bit more focus to get you die pools in and around 8-12 will increase your survivablity alot.

I've seen a similar build with a higher edge, slightly lower over all skills... and monowhip skill of 6. Net die pool of 11 if I recall with +2 reach. Spending an edge drew him up to 18 dice... no martial arts were being used by this group so I'm sure he could have pushed this up a fair bit more at little cost
EDIT - I forgot, it was 19, his edge was 8. He was lucky...

He generally avoided breaking it out unless he was both low on edge and backed into a corner, suddenly he went from well rounded generalist with a martial arts slant, a bit on the weak side, to "oh GOD the BLOOD!".
Perhaps do something similar?

Meh, people seem to forget that "I do this for a living" dicepools are supposed to range between 6-8 so you should be fine provided that your DM doesn't forget that little fact as well, although you are going to have to actually use tactics to win instead of counting on rolling buckets of dice.

If it's a single player game, that would be fine. If other players have similar (low) dice pools, that would be fine too. If other players have high dice pools, this will spoil your fun.

Yeah, but that's simply not realistic.

And there is still a difference between 6-8, 10-12, and buckets of dice.

6-8 is simply too low, 10-12 is good, buckets is overdoing it.

Bye
Thanee

Well, you are right on that Ravor, but shadowrunners are meant to be better than normal professionals at their specialty, atleast in games with a modicum of professionalism, so while a close combat adept with a close combat DP of 6 isn't exactly underpowered, it is at least a bit uninspiring. I'd drop edge and will 1 apiece myself, put those points into agility, and exchange the close combat skill group for blades 4, unarmed 3 and a skill specialization in my weapon of choice. That way the character is still by no means a game breaker, but is bit more obviously "adept" at his area of expertise.

Agreed - Shadowrunner need to with some consistantly defeat "professionals" be it at combat, social interaction, stealth or hacking - you don't need to be much better with a good edge score you "push" when it matters. But as built you will be using edge to reliablay take down a competent non-cybered security guard in straight up unarmed combat unless you TOTALLY get the drop on him. Get your die pool up to 8-10, be at the top of the pile for "pro's".

And to agree with Axl - it does depend on the game. This character as written would be prefectly survivable in one of my games, you'd have a rough time agaisnt any combat monsters I pitted you against, but then those would no be your job. Thats the job of the Orc that sets off the metal detectors. You would be in team Mojo with you magic detection and kinda a secondary face. You can swing a punch? BONUS!
I'd still give this advise though, a few more dice in kung-fu when puch comes to shove don't hurt.

To each their own then, I'm feeling way too damned good to go into one of my dicepool rants once again, but I will say that I disagree about the role that dicepools play in making a Runner sucessful.

It's hard to judge a character when I have no idea of the power level of the campaign. He is a character with average Attributes and middling skills, plus almost none of the multiple ways that both Attributes and overall dice pools can be boosted. He would do decently against normal gangers, but quickly have to spend Edge against normal security guards - he would be fine for a street-level/ganger campaign where everyone is a fledgling runner. But if it is a campaign where everyone simply sits down with 400 points and makes a character, then I'm afraid your character could wind up being overshadowed.

More generally, advice-wise: you have too much armor, because it will give you some hefty encumbrance penalties unless your GM is using some of the optional rules or some house rules. Also, if you lack a ranged combat skill, get one. Close combat doesn't do you any good when you have to charge people with their guns ready, not to mention people firing from windows, balconies, from behind cover, etc. Close combat is something that is nice to be good at, but there are too many times where it will not be feasible.

Well, if you regularily use them, it certainly has an impact.

I don't like, for example, when a character is called a "martial artist" (which usually does imply a certain degree of aptitude), who is barely able to keep up with an average ganger brute.

Bye
Thanee

Dude, in theory I agree with you on this Ravor, proper planning prevents piss poor performance after all, but when dealing with a fictional world atleast as complex as our actual reality being able to go "I do it because my dice pool says I can" is sometimes just good for keeping things flowing instead of getting bogged down in all the details that might otherwise decide things.

Then I'd say that you need to examine the dicepools people are throwing around in your games if a "martial artist" with seven dice can barely keep up with a "ganger brute". Besides that, who says a martial artist has to be a badass from one of the many rather bad action movies floating around.

You know, I cannot agree with this more... it seems that people tend to forget (intentionally, I Think) that very fact...

Keep the Faith

Check your rulebook: the ganger grunt has a close combat dice pool of 7. The lieutenant has 9.

I understand what the rulebook says... And I still disagree with you Traul...

SR4 (BBB)
Ganger... Dice pool of 5 for Unarmed Combat (Skill 2, Attribute is 3)...
Lieutenant: Dice pool 6 (Agility 3 and Skill of 3)...

SR4A (Anniversary Edition)
Ganger... Dice pool of 7 for Close COmbat (Skill 3, Attribute is 4)...
Lieutenant: Dice pool 9 (Agility 4 and Skill of 3 (Specialty +2)... Assuming that he fights with his spurs (Has that option) he is pretty good with that dice pool...

For those who still use different Book Rules... I included both relevant stats above...

However, In my opinion, your oposition should be somewhat competent, and 7-9 Dice is competent, NOW, when YOU (As a Character) are competent (Typically same skill range as a Lieutenant... Note that skill 3 is Professional, equivalent to a professional fighter in competition, thus the term professional) you will tend to see fights that come down to tactics rather than overwhelming dice pools, and at that point, well, I tend to favor the shadowrunners over street gangs for tactical options (Most street gangs just square off and go at it afterall)... also, if your team is using tacsofts, you can get bonuses there... terrrain advantages offer other modifiers... there are a lot of ways to swing the advantage to your side if you think about it enough... saying that, most fights will tend to go to the Shadowrunner when it comes to a "Ganger" fighting a "Martial Artist... little things like Professional Ratings (Typical Ganger has a rating of 1) mean a lot in these circumstances, if you use them correctly (Refer to the guidelines, page 281, SR4A)...

All that considered, I will put my money on the Shadowrunner with Same skill Dicepools over the ganger any day of the week and twice on Sundays... ramp the opposition up to the Professional rating 3+ range, and the fight SHOULD be closer, with a level of danger... with no danger, there is no challenge... with no challenge there is no advancement... it is hard to get better when you are beating up opponents who just cannot compete, ask any fighter, they will agree... you need to stretch your abilities to learn and improve, otherwise you are just going through the motions... and yes, the "motions" will become more second nature, but they never improve...

Of Course, Not everyone agrees with this analysis and a good number here on Dumpshock will tell you that you are not competent unless you are throwing upwards of 14-18 Dice (or more for some gaming tables)... this is not a opinion to which I subscribe...

Top of the line opponents (Professional Rating 6 Antagonists like the Tir Ghosts) are only thowing 11 Dice for Unarmed Combat, 11 Dice for Firearms Attacks (13 if using their Smartlink)... THESE ANTAGONISTS SHOULD BE A BIG CHAZLLENGE... if they are not, then I would say that you are doing something wrong... if you are breezing through such opposition, then what do you have left? Sure, we have all seen the Ultra Elite, Skill Seven, Agility 12 Bad-Ass, but that should be a VERY RARE exception to the Rule (Skill 7 is Legendary after all, and Agility 12 is Maximum Augmented for an Elf with Exceptional Stat, barring some gene tweaking options), and it should be generally used for Prime Runners, if even then...

But looking at the range of opposition, it just does not have to be any higher than published in the book (Typical ranges of Dice pools from 10-12 for skill sets that you wish to concentrate in)...

I will say it again... yes there are options to make extremely powerful characters... but it is very obvious that the dice pool range intended is from 10-12 Dice for your typical styles of play... you can go less for a more gritty, street level style, or higher for that crazy over the top wu-shu wire effect style of play, but those are the edge cases, not the general style that is being emphasized... just look at ALL of the Templates and Archtypes, they are designed with this idea in mind... if there was a different interpretation intended, the opposition would have been designed to that level...

Again, Antagonists that are not a challenge are not really worth opposing, are they... or in other words, opposition that is not opposition is not worth Karma, as they do not challenge you in any significant way (and yes, I know that you can earn Karma for other things thatn defeating an opponet)... challenge is inherent in any roleplaying game... if there is no challenge, you should just go out and write a novel... removing any chance of failure cheapens the experience and provides a foreordained outcome... if you cannot fail, you cannot lose... BORING...

As I said earlier, not everyone will agree with this interpretation, so... Bring on the Firestorm that I know is coming...

Keep the Faith

Actually, a "ganger brute" should be able to keep up with a martial artist - assuming a ganger who is a street fighter who has had to fight in down-and-dirty brawls simply to survive. I would give a skill of 3 to either a street fighter who has been in a lot of scraps, or someone who has a first or second degree black belt from a moderately good dojo. A martial artist who has studied multiple styles, or more esoteric styles, or who has been in a lot of scraps himself, is starting to pull away from the rating: 3 and to go higher.

The character presented would actually have a decent edge over the Halloweeners ganger from the main book, who has a dice pool of 5, less armor, much less Edge, and only one initiative pass. The ganger would still have a chance, though, and two or more of them would definitely be a problem. The corporate security guard would present more of a problem, but mainly because the security guard would be likelier to use his submachine gun than his fists.


Someone with a skill of 3 has chosen to put himself at a certain level, which is fine if that is what fits his background, but NPCs shouldn't compliantly become weaker as a consequence. I would scale jobs to the ability of the runners, but I wouldn't scale the world to the ability of the runners. A ganger will have stats that make sense for a ganger, whether your character is about the same level of power, or is a cybernetic killing machine.

As to whether a martial artist has to be a badass - if that's the character's primary schtick, then he should be good at it, if he wants to be successful in the game. If he wants to play an "average" martial artist, fine, but in that case, he needs to either be in a lower-powered game, or be okay with getting his ass kicked a lot of the time.

Glyph... I agree with most of what you say here... my only caveat would be that you should scale your shadowrunners abilities to the wolrd, and your Jobs to the Capabilities of your 'Runners... this makes infinitely more sense to me... the world posits certain ranges for certain capabilities... Stat 3 and Skill 3 are PROFESSIONAL rating... this is what you should scale to, not some arbitrary scale of where it should be, based on some other category of comparison... Skill Ratings are a Hard Limit to your capabilities, and as such, have defined characteristics to them...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith