You decide that you need to create a false and temporary Access ID. This is completely required, since otherwise when you sign out, Renraku can just plain call you. The dicepool is Hacking + Spoof, but you only need one hit (it's unopposed unless you are currently being traced) and you can do this in downtime, so whatever. You can also do this step by routing your hacking through any electronic item for the duration of your current hacking job and then ditch the item. If you need a specific Access ID, you need to have analyzed that access ID's Icon with Matrix Perception by being in the same node as the Icon and winning an opposed Analyze + Computer vs. Stealth + Firewall test.

Then you have to find the node. This is ridiculously hard. It's an Electronic Warfare + Scan test, and as written it's an extended test (with a threshold of 15 or higher) to find a Hidden Node and mysteriously a non-extended test (threshold 4) to find a node that is not hidden. So as written, with 6 dice it's an average of 10 rolls to find a node that is not hiding and only 8 to find one that is. May be a typo, who can tell?

Armed with your fake and temporary Access ID, you attempt to hack yourself an account into the node you found. This is done by making opposed extended tests against the node. You roll Hacking + Exploit and need to get a number of hits equal to the Firewall of the node (or 3 or 6 higher if the node requires a "security" or "admin" account, which is just a preference toggle for whether you want hacking your systems to be easier or harder). Every time you roll dice, the node gets to roll Analyze + Firewall, trying to add up to a number of hits equal to your Stealth. When you get your total of hits, you get your account. If the computer gets ts number of hits, it sets off an Alert. It is entirely possible for both of these to happen simultaneously. You can also choose to take hours instead of Complex Actions to make these tests, and then the node only gets one chance to spot you instead of one per test you make.

Now that you are in the node, you need to render all the icons. This takes a Simple Action to find out how many icons there are (making an opposed Computer + Analyze test vs. Firewall + Stealth test to count any of the icons that are Stealthed), and then an additional Simple Action to actually identify each of the icons that you have counted (which are also an opposed Analyze + Computer test against Stealth + Firewall to identify any of the stealthed icons you have counted).

Whether an Alert has been triggered or not, the node may well have an active IC protecting it. While you are rendering the node, it is rendering you. If it notices you (Analyze + Agent Rating vs. Hacking + Stealth), it will compare you to its list of who is supposed to be on the node (separate from the Node's list, so you haven't had a chance to hack it yet - so you're not on this list). It can then take any actions it want against you until you successfully render it. Since you're the new kid on the block, it can start attacking you as soon as it renders the programs you came in with. Also, it can call for backup before it even renders you. Or, since it presumably already has a Security Account on its own node, it can attempt to kick you out.

If the IC doesn't spot you and you didn't set off an alarm, skip this step altogether. You can get rid of the IC in several ways. They seem to think you want to engage it in Cyber Combat, which involves rolling initiative and then following the rules for casting low force manabolts at people with spell defense who also get to soak damage and have armor. What you'd actually want to do is to spoof a command to the IC to make it go away. This is just Hacking + Spoof vs. Firewall + Pilot. One net hit and the IC stops all harassing of you forever. If for some reason you are being bothered by one Agent, it's pretty much over in one action.

When you have rendered the target file, you can try to access it. It has a Data Bomb on it, which means that you need to Disarm it before you open the file or you'll get hit by very weird pile of damage. For no reason, Data Bombs have a unique damage mechanic where they inflict matrix boxes equal to Rating multiplied by the score shown on a single d6. Since Data Bombs normally run in ratings of 3-6, this means that you usually have a 2/3 chance of just crashing: no save. Also, Data Bombs can be set to nuke the file you were after. So having one go off is absolutely not an option. You roll Hacking + Defuse (incorrectly written "Disarm" in the book, but we know what they mean) and the Data Bomb rolls twice its rating. If you get more hits than the bomb, you get the data. Otherwise the data is lost and you probably crash. Note that if you're a Technomancer, that taking 30 boxes of matrix damage actually means that you die. So always have a Sprite or Agent open a Data Bomb if you are a Technomancer.

Now you can transfer the file to your commlink. This requires a Computer + Edit test, but you only need 1 hit, there is no consequence for failure, and retries are allowed. So um... whatever.

Hate to say it, but everything you've mentioned except the intuition bit is listed in tweaking the rules, Pg 39 Unwired.

You need to ask yourself why you want brainpower back in (i.e. what's the gameplay objective) and also how do you think the matrix works?

What the rules (probably) say:



What you're actually going to want to do is different, but whatever you are doing is going to impact what changes you should make. For example, switching to skill + stat makes the already insanely dangerous Data Bombs RIDICULOUSLY dangerous as it reduces the size of your dice pool and gives an average optimised starting character a 30% chance of just dying every time he encounters one.

So you probably need to change that to. And because sysadmins now do have a dice pool of 6 instead of 9, you probably need to drop the threshold required to find a node that is not hidden (I suggest: 1)

Finally you also want to change the rules that let the IC instantly and permanently disconnect you from their node instantly as soon as they spot you by changing the access ID white list (given as an example in unwired)

I was going to suggest capping the amount of rolls on one extended test by your logic. This means that, by and large, any noob can load up a script and some agents and pretend to be a hacker - but only the -really- smart people with the brains can actually -hack- well. Think about it - all the important actions on the matrix are Extended tests. Hacking on the fly is. Probing is. Crashing Nodes is.(under 4a, crashing programs isnt). Decrypting, defusing data bombs, disarming programs, tracing users - even fixing programs on the fly with medic. All extended tests. Sure, anyone can throw a mookbot at a firewall - but only someone with a logic of 5 or so actually stands a reliable chance of probing down an opening in that rating 6 firewall.

The problem with capping hits at Program Rating is it kind of screws technomancers up.

The game I'm currently in places a bit more emphasis on plain jane hackers being able to make their own code and personal programs, and iron out the bugs. We use a pretty simple houserule for that - any hits on the Software test over the threshold reduce the time you need to complete the program, by a proportionate amount, depending on how big the threshold was in the first place. Here's an example: A decently smart person(4) with above average software skills(3) and a basic compiler(software creation suite 1) can hammer out a simple Common Use program like Command 1(Threshold 1, 1 month) in two weeks. (8 dice, buying 2 hits, which is twice what he needs so it gets done in half the time. 1 hit needed/2 hits = 0.5 time).
While they don't match the ability of TM's to improvise code entirely on the fly, with a few days warning a hacker can brush up some of their utilities for the job at hand. If you're going to cap players at their program ratings, at least give them a reasonable means of advancing it.

A more practical example from my game is making an rating 1 agent, having social engineered my way into limited access at a Programming Environment, and busting my ass to get it done with a Rush Job. sixteen dice vs a threshold of 3/3 months. I got 4 hits and a glitch, and finished it in a little over 3 weeks - with some lasting trouble from the glitch. If anything, the rule just enforces the 'If its rating 4 or higher, its hard to find and twice as expensive' for programs.

Saying you want it 'more person focused' is nice, but I need concrete examples of what you want to change to contribute meaningfully: Frank's helpfully written down all the steps in a 'hack' with the rules abuses removed, so what were you thinking about doing to make it more people focused?

Incidently if you do that: I'd seriously suggest starting with banning agents and limiting IC to one per node and confined only to that node. That makes a big change in the right direction straight up.

I'd also remove Access ID's for every purpose except for trailing people.

@Udoshi: This doesn't do what you think it does. Capping hits by logics either makes Agents/IC super awesome (as they are straight up and down better than the sys admin) or back door bans them (because they don't have a logic score). Now, banning them is obviously a good idea and should be encouraged but banning IC might be a bad idea. The other option moves away from the stated design goals.

Armed with your fake and temporary Access ID, you attempt to hack yourself an account into the node you found. This is done by making opposed extended tests against the node. You roll Hacking + Exploit and need to get a number of hits equal to the Firewall of the node (or 3 or 6 higher if the node requires a "security" or "admin" account, which is just a preference toggle for whether you want hacking your systems to be easier or harder). Every time you roll dice, the node gets to roll Analyze + Firewall, trying to add up to a number of hits equal to your Stealth. When you get your total of hits, you get your account. If the computer gets ts number of hits, it sets off an Alert. It is entirely possible for both of these to happen simultaneously. You can also choose to take hours instead of Complex Actions to make these tests, and then the node only gets one chance to spot you instead of one per test you make.

I rather like the system RAW; I disagree with your interpretation.

I would call someone with low Skills, high Programs (that he likely can't write himself) a script-kiddie. Someone with high Skills would by definition not be a script-kiddie in my view.

One explanation for not using your Attributes is that the program really does more of the analysis and thinking than you do, computer vs. brain speed and all. Skills obviously feature, because it's skill in doing things at that speed.

I don't think the current system is all that unfair; high Logic is useful when you want to write your own software, which is still worth it, especially with software degradation and all manner of registration thingies in Unwired.

There are a few areas where I'd consider adding an attribute to the test; basically all those checks that take longer than combat-speeds. Data searches at a leisurely pace, sniffing for possible exploits in a firewall etc.

@Udoshi: This doesn't do what you think it does. Capping hits by logics either makes Agents/IC super awesome (as they are straight up and down better than the sys admin) or back door bans them (because they don't have a logic score). Now, banning them is obviously a good idea and should be encouraged but banning IC might be a bad idea. The other option moves away from the stated design goals.

@Udoshi: This doesn't do what you think it does. Capping hits by logics either makes Agents/IC super awesome (as they are straight up and down better than the sys admin) or back door bans them (because they don't have a logic score). Now, banning them is obviously a good idea and should be encouraged but banning IC might be a bad idea. The other option moves away from the stated design goals.

It's actually the device rating, which is the rating of the agent - which will be 4 to 6. And they still don't actually have a logic score, there is just some words about using it in place of logic blahblahblah

Anyway it doesn't matter, if you give them device rating 4, skills 4 and an R6 program, they are still better than a human system administrator (who's 3/3/6). Which is against your stated policy objective so there is no particular reason not to cut agents unless they add something helpful.

Anyway, if I was you and didn't want to just use Frank's matrix rules I'd

1) Cap hits by program rating

2) Change skill pools to skill + stats

3) Remove all reference to Access ID except for track and faking your trail.

4) Ban agents, remove the mobility from ICs and Pilot functions

5) Make it so that Databombs do damage equal to Rating + net hits on the defuse test.

6) Make it so one matrix perception test renders the entire node, but give the defender a 'reactive' roll to instantly render nodes that enter.

7 Then all you need to do is fix this



So a starting hacker cannot hack Zurich Orbital, the Pentagon and the Red Pagoda out of the box.

6)

Udoshi isn't suggesting capping hits but limiting rolls on extended tests, which is interesting. Not sure what it would do, it's nifty.

Also, because its bugging me: Detecting a hidden node is four successes unless you are trying to detect all the hidden nodes in an area in which case it's an extended test with a threshold of 15 and an interval of 1 combat turn. Don't know how Frank read it any other way.

Using mental stats accentuates the importance of Mental Stats for Technomancers. In addition, it clouds some issues. TMs are not the same programmers as their mothers and fathers. TMs reach out and command the bits. If emphasis is placed on Logic, the defining characteristic between TM and hacker is "language". Intuition is interesting. If one argues that virtuakinetic abilities are intuitive, and places many of the rolls on intuition, it forces all TMs to be rather insightful folk.
The amplification gets worse if the Stream uses one of these mental stats for Fading. Thus the stat used may be assigned by Tradition and boy howdy does that get bogged down and complicated fast.
BlueMax

Udoshi isn't suggesting capping hits but limiting (The Total Number of) rolls on (a single series of) extended(and only extended) tests, which is interesting. Not sure what it would do, it's nifty.

*snip stuff that's pretty on-target generally*

However, there's an easy fix for technomancers. A way to make them special, and have that Karma they spend on CF's and skills actually give a dice pool benefit. A decent way to reflect that TM's talk to computers in bizarre, sideways and often effective ways than other users is simple - let them use the old dice system on the matrix. ... that's it. The benefit from being a TechnoMancer is you get to skip the Attribute thing that burdens down all the other users who can't see the glory of the resonance like you do and just work with the code directly. A minor benefit is that it makes them more efficient at the Matrix than other people, under this system - Regular people need to pay out the nose to increase their Attribute to be more effective, as well as a Skill. A TM just needs to increase the skill, and CF's are cheap. Under the new system, i can see a TM player bitching about being 'forced' to spend karma on a ton of complex forms just so they can get 'one hit'. This solution bypasses the whole thing quite nicely.

Yeah, you did. Here, lemme help...

Additions mine. Does that make more sense?
Example: Probing. You have a logic of 6. Thus, you may roll to Probe a firewall up to six times. This is a a completely seperate from the idea of capping hits by program rating.

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In that case, I happen to like the general reducing dice pool idea myself, but hey...

Hm. If you're using the CF as a cap...... replace that with Resonance instead. That way you're not keeping track of a ton of different CF levels. Resonance caps most things for TM's anyway - and a resonance of 4-5 is still going to be about as good or better than a regular commlink decker.
So it'd be Skill+CF capped by resonance. In the case of Sprites, replace Resonance with Force.

Your CF's can't go higher than your resonance anyway - this just saves a step in limiting things. Also I like that the Resonance stat is a pretty solid guage of what a given TM is capable of, in this system. - it ALSO handily nerfs the 'rating 18 CF' problem rather simply. Under your way, with the CF as the cap, it would add 18 dice AND limit you to 18 hits. Thats just broken. Under my way, you can Thread and Assist Operation ALL you like, but you aren't going to benefit wholly from it unless you increase your Resonance too.

I'm glancing at some of this. And while I disagree somewhat w/ using all the dice caps together on general principle, I understand where you're coming from. (I tend to be more of the school of he's an ultraspecialist... too bad the specialty doesn't come into play).

I don't really like your use of intuition. Intuition doesn't really need more uses. Also, speaking as someone who's been on both the white hat and black hat side of things. It's not really 'feel' it's your knowledge of systems and exploits. Not feeling your way through them.

*snip the middle stuff that you're welcome to but has NO interest for me*

Though having just visited old friends at a LAN party this weekend... hardware matters... a lot. There's not a lot you can do when the wannabe sniper w/ the hitscan laser beam and super-gaming rig has you in his sights. Outside of the twitch, that's pure hardware advantage.

OK, I got 1 and 2.

I've been unhappy with the hybrid (simplified?) AccesID taking the place of a login/MAC ID/IP Address, but I'd like something more concrete to make sure we're not talking apples and kiwis here.

What's the complaint about IC/Pilot mobility? And why ban Agents entirely?

I will go back and look at DataBombs; They already looked pretty ugly even as-is.

Can you explain #6? Maybe I'm totally misunderstanding the Matrix Perception rules, or I haven't caught something important that can be manipulated into a loophole you could drive a Rover through?[/font]

The reason to ban agents is that they just replace people. You can just set your agent to 'hack' mode and it will breach the pentagon and probably won't set off any alerts. When you can buy that, why have people? Agents just replace persona's with automatons and that goes explicitly against your design goal. Why do you even want agents anyway given that your design goal is 'more people' and agents just replace people. That's the explicit goal of an agent!

Kick the stupid things to the curb, they don't need to exist to make the basic rules work and they go against everything you want.

(you're using the comlink to hack, therefore you're a Decker and your tool is a 'Deck. I'm old school. Sue me.)

But just about everything in the SR4 Unwired World is [ Skill + ProgramRTG ], and that means there's not brain power needed to make it go. For all intents and purposes, you could slot R4 'softs into some near-brain-dead mentally-retarded trog along with a bleeding-edge cyberdeck (you're using the comlink to hack, therefore you're a Decker and your tool is a 'Deck. I'm old school. Sue me.) and you have somebody to rival the best deckers on the 'Trix. That makes absolutely ZERO sense to me, and it's almost WORSE with a virtuakinteic (Technomancer).

The reason to ban agents is that they just replace people. You can just set your agent to 'hack' mode and it will breach the pentagon and probably won't set off any alerts. When you can buy that, why have people? Agents just replace persona's with automatons and that goes explicitly against your design goal. Why do you even want agents anyway given that your design goal is 'more people' and agents just replace people. That's the explicit goal of an agent!

Yes, it fixes the problem of threading stealth up to an absurd level and being completely invisible on the matrix(under this system, stealth 12 would limit you to 12 hits- you're never going to get that many anyway) - but that -2 distraction penalty to everything is going to kill you if you want to Trace someone AND use a Sniffer.

As I recall, the stealth program is never a test though. THe stealth rating is the number of successes needed in a matrix test to detect you. This is one area that I have issues with.

Modern compilers are pretty good at optimization, and with sixty more years are likely better at it than humans.

Modern computer technicians still use command-line interfaces, but the software behind that command line has grown a lot.

Modern compilers are pretty good at optimization, and with sixty more years are likely better at it than humans.

For large, complex programs, doing it "by hand" is likely less effective; more mistakes will be made. There is a limit to how big a picture humans can work with, that computer processing power can bypass.

I think it's fairer to say that the quality of your programs and the skill you have at using them are decisive in the matrix. The problems would go too fast and be too complex to do "by hand" - the analytical powers of 2070s software are far greater.


In the end it comes down to what you like; but I think I made a case for the plausibility of RAW.

OK, here's the thing: I'm not talking about the feel, it's about seeing an opportunity and taking advantage of it. The Matrix of the 6th World is more akin to a modern electronic warfare battlefield than most modern net security; It's being able to see a weakness and exploit it before the chance slips away. Based on the descriptions of the attributes, that's more intuition: recognizing something without having to extensively consider it. But that's something I doubt we'll come to agree on regardless, so I'll leave it at that.

Yes, hardware matters, and I am not suggesting eliminating it in any way. I am just suggesting changing the focus. Hardware is still the BIG limit beyond the dice rolls themselves: maximum System which inherently limits programs in power and number and sets how tough the icon is going to be. Firewall is essentially a "hardware" aspect. Response is reaction speed and processor horsepower. That stuff is CORE in CyberCombat, so I think it's already central enough. I want skill and talent to have some place, and currently talent has NO place and skill has a limited place compared to everything else, especially without caps.

Then, I think another point is this: are script kiddies bad?
I think it fits with SR's dehumanizing setting that S-Ks and Agents and AIs threaten to replace hackers; cast it a bit more film noir, where they're the last proud few. Only some hackers are good enough to still win from the machines.
IIRC, Neuromancer used themes like that a lot; the protagonist gets a spectacular icebreaker software to do his job, and it's all about freeing up the AI to enter a self-improvement loop.

I agree that it's weird to have logic 1 hackers being BP 'optimal' - but they're not gameplay optimal because of things like program degradation etc. so it's largely a theoretical problem for most table tops. (it is a real problem for one shot cons and some missions groups etc. but house rules won't help there... )

SR4 is first and foremost a roleplaying game. If you want 'hacker' to be an actual archetype that people play, Script Kiddies are unquestionably bad because they invalidate actual players. There is absolutely no argument you can make which features playable Hacker Characters and also has Script Kiddies.

If one of the players in my game can be replaced by a box with 'Tracebuster' on the side, the game is terrible. Saying otherwise is saying you're happy to let one guy play Super Smash Bros while the agent does all the work, which is dumb because we're trying to play an RPG, not slamming Princess Peach with a Mallet (fun as that is)

having gone through multi-variate differential equations (another appeal to authority! ) while the human may get a more 'elegant' solution after a lot of time consuming work, the computer will still get the right answer within expected tolerance, much much faster.

Another argument against compilers v. metahuman/other hackers goes to the nature of the matrix itself. The matrix is a far more interactive, intuitive environment than simply running a computer or monitoring what comes in through an I/O port. Compilers, no matter how complex, can not deal adequately with a novel situation, of which almost any situation in a node with a conflicting reality will really be.