I've looked at 40+ pages of dumpshock so far, so if this came up before...I haven't hit it yet. It's a little less tedious to ask and see what happens.

Let's assume you're a Mage and switch perception. You're not a dual-being. You also learn there's a rather angry Earth elemental waiting on the other side, and he wants to lift you up by your scrawny neck and question you about these 'jokes about my family jewels'.

Will you actually be lifted off the physical plane ground because the spirit can touch you in the astral plane?

Simply, it seems like a yes, but at the same time, such cross bordering might have some sort of 'law' that limits such physics (though he can still snap your neck). If it is a yes, that brings up other issues like 'flying' off with you, moving at intense Astral space speeds (and your skin peeling off from the inertia on your meat body, etc).

So, has this ever come up, did it have answers or thoughts? Is it actually in one of the books, and in all my looking I missed it entirely?

Thank you much for reading this, and possibly answering it!

Oh, and one more thing...spirits technically aren't subject to gravity on the physical plane, though spirits of air 'fly' as chosen. Does this simply mean that any other spirit raised into the air 'falls harmlessly' if they don't just slip back into the astral? Does that mean a spirit of earth could climb a wall by digging 'claws' into it and running up it, since gravity doesn't quite apply anymore?

First of all, you are most definitely dual-natured while using Astral Perception.

Second, it really depends on how you want to describe the astral. There really aren't any rules on this because the rules like to keep things extremely abstract (unless you're talking Matrix rules, but I have issue there). It's entirely within house rule dominion.

One important thing to remember, however, is that all astral damage and astral combat itself is purely mental in nature. That earth elemental isn't actually lifting you up. It has no body to lift you up with. For interacting with other astral objects, it has an effective strength, but it's actual Strength score is 0, as it its Carrying/Lifting score. Since you're a dual-natured being, he'd have to be able to lift both your astral body and your physical body which are one in the same. Since he can't do that, nothing happens other than him struggling to do so.

Now if his astral form came over and gave you an uppercut, that would most certailny require astral combat rolls since he can attack you while you're dual-natured. Your physical body would only move, however, as a somantic response to your perception of the attack. He didn't move you so much as you moved yourself to keep the "reality" of the attack in check. You wouldn't be thrown around or anything like that, but you might stumble as you reel from the mental force of the blow.

At least that's my take on it.

As for falling, that's covered by the standard falling rules. If a materialized form can't fly, they obey the standard rules of physics while materialized. The question to ask is: Does Immunity to Normal Weapons apply to things like that?

Personally I'd rule that no, as a dual natured being you have to obey the laws of both planes at the same time, so the spirit couldn't lift your physical body simply by touching you astrally.

Of course, either way you rule it you are going to get some strange results...

Whoops, I missed a bloody typo. Yes, you are definitely dual natured when perceiving, so my bad on that part.

but the mental aspect of it all is a very good point - if such lifting or 'dragging' occurred, it would probably be limited to the reaction the mage could make, so in being dragged, he might stagger around on his own two feat, but not be lifted or forcibly moved If choked, he might go up on his toes if it's 'tall' spirit, or flinch when swatted.

A good answer! I can work with that one.

As far as having to fall, it mentions in the SR4 (so probably in the SR4a too) that materialized spirits aren't really subject to gravity, but the non-flying ones tend to stay on or near the ground (for hovering types), so in that case, I could say that since spirits are normally astral, they're not really falling so much as having to oblige in gravities downward pull. The 'weight' they have is just a respect to that, since they don't have a real body and mass (they may emulate the mass, but it's semi real, it applies when the spirit wants to use it, like sitting on you in the physical, or 'falling' harmlessly).

Thank you for the promptness.

He is, in fact, dual natured for the duration of his Assensing, but he is not Dual Natured, as the Critter Power. Similar name, different effect.

Also, all spirits that can Materialize can fly, but only some have the Fly skill (which is the flying version of Running). Possession/Inhabitation spirits can only fly if the object they're possessing/inhabiting could also fly (or if the Inhabitation results in a True Form).

To the OP, I could totally see (although there are no rules to support this) that the earth elemental rips the mage's astral body out of his physical body (basically forcing him to Project - whether he can or not). It'd be totally cool, and it'd definately keep the players on their toes.

Problem with ruling that way is what do you do when someone decides to weaponize your decision? The saying about how NPCs can do whatever the PCs can also works in reverse.

You make the Earth Elemental a Free Spirit. That way PCs can't summon it unless they learn his True Name.

EDIT: Or write it off as "We don't know everything about spirits, so you can't get it to work."

Bah, it's clearly just a specilised version of the Astral Gateway power. And awesome.

I would give it to a Greater Shedim or similar "oh god why?" monster rather then an Earth elemental though.

EDIT - oh ya, general agreement - the mage might move from the blow by feedback "rolling with the punch" but couldn't be lifted.

OP: I'd say spirit is limited to damaging the mage and not manhandling it. Not to say mental damage couldn't cause the mage to stagger or move as if slapped. (mage's muscles reacting to getting hit, not necessary getting thrown by the spirit). Astral is all about auras and interacting w/ them, and contests of will (astral combat is linked to willpower).


Bad way to put it Neraph... all spirits are effectively levitating.

But not all of them are air or fire spirits with an actual flight speed.


Think of it this way... yes they are airborne but w/ the DnD equivalent of very poor maneuverability unless they're close to the ground.

I'd totally have the PC's dragged around as the description for the damage he was taking, even if it's all astral. That would just freak the hell out of the others and have them respect the power of what they can't control or understand.

Totally a "rule of cool" opertunity there.

The way I see it, a spirit that is 'invisible' but materialized would be more amusing for the whole 'fling them around' routine. It would still be dramatic, but it avoids dealing with the whole astral plane issue.

That, or the use of certain powers like psychokinesis might produce lift anyways. that would be helpful in avoiding situations like flying at 50k mph or whatever and flaying their skin with a sonic boom.

Well...I'm leaning towards the whole mental bit while on the astral at least, but fun ideas to consider.

This is wrong. All spirits have their speeds as their fly speed, with Perfect Maneuverability (for D&D reference), but only fire and air spirits have the "Fly" Skill, which is used like running to increase this speed for short-term gain. We can see the truth of my words as Fire and Air spirits have the Flight skill, listed in detail on page 286, SR4. Also check page 177, SR4 for how Materialized spirit movement works.

I can semi-agree with the levitating bit, but only in the most vague of terms. It is simply their movement speed, allowed as a full 360-degree area of movement, without restriction (aside from not being able to go through physical objects). The Flight skill just makes some of them marginally faster. The X/Y (flight) listing was redundant.