I have a Street Samurai, as you can all probably guess. I also have 250000:nuyen:, courtesy of character creation. (standard rules apply.) What would you recommend?

Some starting points:

I have Automatics and Heavy Weapons at 5, Longarms and Pistols at 4. Also, Unarmed Combat 3. Clubs and Blades are 0. I'm not interested in an exotic melee weapon.

I need a way of getting multiple IPs. A Synthcardium 3, for 30000:nuyen: is pretty much mandatory. Also, probably a smartlink.

I'd prefer two awesome guns to ten stock guns. I don't want the entire post to be about the Ares Alpha, though I'll probably have one. We all know it's awesome.
Hardliner Gloves... I've got a Strength of 6. These give me a base unarmed combat damage of 4P, before any cyber/bioware.
I'd like to have a pile of armour. I've got a body of 9, and soaking the damage would be nice.
I do need to outfit myself with things other than just weapons, ware and... warmour. Things like a Lifestyle

I'm not too worried about having less humanity than the borg. As long as I've got more than say... 0.22. Go nuts.

If I need to clarify my character further, just ask. This is the only section I still need to do.

OH! Houserules, currently, as far as I know, are only thus, as far as gear goes.

Armor degradation and the personally fitted armor rules from Arsenal. Form Fitting Body Armour is considered to already have benefitted.

I cracked out a very short list of cyberware, there's a couple pieces of low hanging fruit still available (mostly in bioware - damage compensators etc.) but I didn't want to spend all 250,000$ at once =P

you will need to take one instance of the restricted gear positive quality (runner's companion); so if you take this package you'll either need to peel 5 BP out of something else or spend only 225,000¥ (it's worth it) I marked the item it was taken for below.



the total package costs 168,250¥ and 5extra BP, for a total of 4.5 essence (leaving 1.5 ess) there is alot of cyber and very little bio so if you wanted to spend more on bio go ahead. if you pull the 5 BP for the restricted gear from your cash you'll have ~56,750¥ left to buy armor, B&E gear, lifestyle, etc.

I'd prefer to avoid Move-by-Wire. My GM has warned me that there might be unforeseen consequences to deal with, unless it is alphaware or better. Probably like how it was in SR3. A ticket to doom.

Smartlink, Flare Compensation and Thermographic Vision are all good. Cybereyes... not so much. I want to keep my natural Low-Light vision.

I've already taken the restricted gear quality once. I was looking at getting Muscle toner 4... Its 32000 for that.

+the Synthcardium and Wired Reflexes 2 (64000 for Alpha) is currently 124000. For +2 IP, +2 Reaction, +3 to physical skills and +4 to agility...

Also, with a Body of 9, don't worry about armour stacking penalties. If any reasonable combo of armour can actually get over 18 armour, I'd be surprised. (I'm not looking for a form fitting body armour and military body armour. I need something I can walk around in.)

If armor is what you want, go full body replacement. Get restricted gear for the armor, pack on 4 armor per part and you got 20 armor nekkid. You can have decent stats, with that, but probably can't fit much else in essence wise.

Nah. I don't want armour to the exclusion of everything else. I was just bringing up another thing that had crossed my mind while I posted.

Armor, at chargen: Riot Control Armor (3k), full FFBA (1600), full PPP (1k), RCA helmet (1k), Gel Packs (1500), Ruthenium Polymer Coating (Just in case, 7500)
For a grand total of 16/19 armor, at 15600; sure it's expensive, but if you need to cyber up for your job, you *should* be paranoid enough to finish gearing up for WW3(4?5?)

Hrmm...

I'd go with FFFBA (6/2) and a Mortimer of London Greatcoat. Thats a good 12/7, without relying on PPP (which interacts badly with called shots...)

For situations where I don't have to worry about looking illegal, I can probably go with Riot control. (although, that's only like +3 impact armour...)

I'd question his reason for doing this unless he finds it munchy; but even then I'd get it alpha before I would install WRII instead - it's *so much* more essence efficient and the costs are fine compared to how much you get out of them.

although if you did drop those, I'd still recommend pulling in the enhanced articulation, attention co-processor and orientation system, essence permitting.

as for armor, thanks to the 4e rules concerning stacking about the best you can do is:

Form-Fitting Full Suit
Helmet
*some armor suit/piece of armor*

and the only way to push *that* over 18 encumbering ballistic is to go with 'some armor suit' being swat armor or better, which would require another instance of restricted gear.

otherwise your best gear set is probably form-fitting + helmet + riot gear for zero-zone situations where what you wear doesn't matter, and form fitting + helmet + armor jacket when looking like 'just' a cop is probably ok.

in discreet situations it'd be FFBA + clothes or just armor clothing ofc.

obviously if you wanted to get over 18 actual armor that's relatively easy, just start stacking the cyberware armor enhancements (dermal plating, bone lacing, etc.) and then wear the FFBA + helmet + riot gear...

Actually, I could add a ballistic Shield for some extra. +6/+4, if I really wanted...

I'm gonna go with a FFBA (Full Body) for +6/+2, or +3/+1 when not all of it is in use, and a MoL Greatcoat. It gives -2 conceal to all my guns and stuff.

I might be able to sneak a deal with the Move-by-Wire. We'll see how it turns out. Right now, it looks like 65 karma for the quality (Restricted Gear) and Move-by-wire 2 aplhaware. Normally, MBWA is 170000 by itself, and priced at 55 karma, I'm getting it at 137500. Thats about a 20% discount.

So, MBW is in. I've got 112500 nuyen left. 12000 of that is going to a Middle Lifestyle (3 months).

I also have 50 extra karma, which I can trade in at 2500 a point. Thats another possible 125000.

• Enhanced Senses
  Cybereyes 3, Cyberears 1, Attention Coprocessor, Orientation System, Data Jack
• Enhanced Physical Performance
  Muscle Toner 2, Muscle Augmentation 1, Synthacardium 3
• For Combat
  Trauma Damper, Synaptic 1

I arrive at a cost of 190.250¥ / 2.4 essence (1.6+1.6).

Out of curiosity, why do so many of you seem to add an Orientation System as a must have? Is there something magical about it that I'm just completely obtuse to?

Why do you have 4 individual gun skills? Even taking heavy weapons to 6 and picking up the firearms group is better than what you've done.

Armor w/ Body 9??.. Full Body Armor w/helmet (12/10) + FFBA (full body) (6/2)(counted as 3/1)
PPP Vitals protection (1/1),PPP shin guards (0/1), and PPP Forearm guards (0/1), PPP leg & arm casings (1/1)
Ballictic armor 20 (counted as 17 when looking penalties) Impact 16 (counted as 15 when looking penalties)

Wired reflexes + Reaction Enchanters are VERY good combination..

it depends heavily on the GM. generally I give *large* bonuses to players who do map related activities who have one (since it basically gives you a hud overlay of your map against whatever you're actually looking at at the time - like, think your favorite gps map, rotated to match your actual field of view with virtual buildings rising up out of it etc.) it's a good way to avoid getting lost and fits rather smoothly into the eye capacity to boot.

generally I count it as an extra sense input for the tac soft too (gps information as the sense... )

I'm really not worried about cyber/bioware anymore. I've sorted it out with my GM, and gotten an awesome deal as far as the MBW system goes. What I'm looking at now is weapons, especially heavy weapons, and assorted other stuff. I've got about 40000:nuyen:.

NOTES: The FN HAR has been changed to 7P/-2, rather than 6P/-1. This is at no change in cost or availibility, so it might actually be worth looking at.

Also, the P93 has changed to 4P/-2, rather than 5P/-1. Again, no change to the rest of the weapon.

@Cthulu: The GM has heavily houseruled character creation. I took firearms at 4, then raised automatics to 5, for a total 65K. It was a pretty good deal, as far as I'm concerned. I know it's unoptimal to buy all gun skills, but I'd prefer to slave my character to the backstory I set down, especially when it doesn't matter too much.

Oh, also, my dude is a brick. I've got 9 Body, +3 on Damage Resistance, and 4/4 Armour, which is probably stacked onto a FFBA halfbody (8/5) and a Mortimer of London Greatcoat (14/10). I've got a lot of dice to soak rolls. I shouldn't need any more right now.

I'm really not worried about cyber/bioware anymore. I've sorted it out with my GM, and gotten an awesome deal as far as the MBW system goes. What I'm looking at now is weapons, especially heavy weapons, and assorted other stuff. I've got about 40000:nuyen:.

NOTES: The FN HAR has been changed to 7P/-2, rather than 6P/-1. This is at no change in cost or availibility, so it might actually be worth looking at.

Also, the P93 has changed to 4P/-2, rather than 5P/-1. Again, no change to the rest of the weapon.

@Cthulu: The GM has heavily houseruled character creation. I took firearms at 4, then raised automatics to 5, for a total 65K. It was a pretty good deal, as far as I'm concerned. I know it's unoptimal to buy all gun skills, but I'd prefer to slave my character to the backstory I set down, especially when it doesn't matter too much.

Oh, also, my dude is a brick. I've got 9 Body, +3 on Damage Resistance, and 4/4 Armour, which is probably stacked onto a FFBA halfbody (8/5) and a Mortimer of London Greatcoat (14/10). I've got a lot of dice to soak rolls. I shouldn't need any more right now.

Yes, almost perfect orientation. It is a must-have feature for any really cool AR-HUD. Plus Navigation tests can come up, and not many of my chars have that skill.

Or you could just buy a GPS that doesn't cost essence?

Seriously if it costs actual essence it better be seriously badass.

it's not [edit]*just*[/edit] a gps. it does a rotate-translate in real time so the overlay matches (in 3d) what you're actually looking at, in the orientation you're currently viewing. if you played CoD4:MW campaign mode at all, you remember the zoom ins with the wire frame that fills in and then rotates to first person from overhead? just before they fade out the wireframe that would be what this does. this would let you look at a mountain or hilltop and go 'that's 300' above our current elevation' at a glance, among other cool tricks (like knowing immediately by glancing around how far away something is...)

it's also free for many many players because it's unusual to end up with all 8 slots in rating 2 eyes used, but be over the 4 slots rating 1 eyes gives. (it's also only 1 slot.) even then I'd give more dice for this than I would for a hand held or commlink operated GPS; and only this interacts directly with mapsofts. (I happen to count this as a sense input for your unit for tacsofts too but that's a discretionary choice as GM, I don't think there's any rule for it.)

Sure, it's a fun but of flavor. But it's hardly a "must-have." People are listing it in this thread above things like Trauma Dampers, Damage Compensators, or all the other myriad things that actually make you a better Street Samurai. Especially in a thread asking for help in that department. And +2 to an Outdoors skill that rarely comes up isn't exactly a "must-have."

So why do you think I can not do that with a commlink, AR and a GPS? Hell, today I know how far away stuff is at a glance because my GPS knows where I am and I can read a map.

In the future my GPS is wired directly to my brain, via my commlink, and my eyes are wired to actual computers and can with GPS assistance know where the mountain that I am looking at is.

And yeah, how is this in any way better than a trauma damper

Ultimately, it's a non-issue. I've got... 0.68 essence. Thus, not really enough for anything at all. Unless I START by upgrading something to alphaware. Or better, preferably. Unfortunately, the only thing that'll give me a big hole is Titanium Lacing. However, I gotta say, I'd prefer a trauma damper to a map overlaid on my vision.

Anyway: How does the new FN HAR (7P/-2) compare to the Alpha? Is it still worse? (Keep in mind: restricted vs. forbidden...)

Would you recommend the Ingram Smartgun X or the FN P93 Praetor (4P/-2)? Alternately, a totally seperate sidearm.

And... lastly, a heavy weapon. I'm currently looking at the Ingram White Knight, but I have little experience with heavy weapons.

IF I still have money at the end, I'd be getting a sniper rifle, then a pistol. Factor in ammo costs too.

If you're walking around with an assault rifle and get caught with it, you're screwed anyway. So it doesn't really matter if a weapon like that is technically Restricted versus Forbidden. Both'll get your ass capped by the cops if you don't drop it, and they're going to take it off you and charge you if you do get caught with it. License or not.

And yes, 7P/-2 AP makes it ungodly better than an Ares Alpha. That's better than medium machine guns (completely negating your need for a Heavy Weapon unless you want to somehow get a HMG or Rocket Launcher or something), and they don't get to use a sound suppresser whereas an assault rifle does. Throw on the Extended Clip: Drum design option and it is completely and utterly better than one except for mildly shorter range (which doesn't matter much in urban combat, especially with Vision Magnification). Except for the lack of a grenade launcher, yeah, I'd say that's better than an Ares Alpha. But that's just looking at a single house rule while ignoring any others that may be in play. Even the 2 free points of recoil compensation that the Alpha has (but you give up by using a suppresser instead of the default gas-vent) can be negated by taking an Auto-Adjusting Underbarrel Weight, which you can easily do since you don't have a grenade launcher to worry about.

If you're carrying one of those around with you on a regular basis, for a sidearm I'd go with something highly concealable. The Ares Light Fire 70 is really nice. It has the advantages of a Light Pistol (-2 Concealability) plus its custom silencer gives you a total -5 dice pool modifier on Perception Tests to detect its firing. Give it the Electronic Firing modification. Combine that with a Concealable Holser under your Mortimer coat and that's a total of -6 Concealability and -6 dice pool on the Perception Tests for firing. Load it up with Stick-and-Shock rounds and you're pretty set. Heck, you could give up the extra -1 dice pool modifier by switching to a Sound Suppresser and instead give it BF capabilities with the Firing Selection Change option if you really wanted that extra punch. Toss on an Underbarrel Weight as an accessory and it has 2 points of recoil compensation... which is a pretty nice compensation for that loss on the Perception Test. Especially if you want to switch to EX Explosive or AV/APDS ammo for whatever reason.

Even without the house rules, all of the design options in the game make Automatics a far superior skill to Heavy Weapons as far as actual firearms go. Especially as far as recoil compensation goes. Heavy Weapons is only good for grenade launchers and that sort of thing. And, personally, I think lobbing grenades manually is a lot cooler and more flavorable than using an underbarrel (or separate) grenade launcher.

The one advantage is you can have it at home or in your car boot and it's not a crime if you get pulled over in a random traffic stop. Sure the cop is going to think you are shady and run your stuff through the scanner, so make sure it's a GOOD licence, but yeah.

I agree with doc funk that it is massively better though 7P/-2 is awesome tastic.

I only need a single permit (A gun owner Permit) for the Assault Rifle. If I get pulled over, I can just say I'm headed to the range. Admittedly, I don't won't be able to afford a car, but...

I need a second license if I plan on concealing an SMG or a pistol. (Concealed Carry)

I also need a license for explosives. You know, since those are good for... stuff. (Probably a construction license. I've been IMing the GM.)

How do SMGs do for concealability?

Unless another house rule is in play, you need a license for each piece of equipment as far as I know.

Regardless, you're a shadowrunner. Don't get caught and you won't have to worry about licenses or legality. You're a professional criminal for Christ's sake.

Another house rule is in play.

So, the FN HAR is awesome and ready to be modded? What kinds of mods am I looking for?

Go back and read my thread, Doc. I'm "pink" enough to just worry about one per "class" of item, generally.

One to "own and possess Restricted firearms"
One to "conceal a lethal weapon"
One to operate a vehicle (included in a fake ID)
One to possess explosives
One to possess restricted medical devices and pharmecuticals
One to "register" cyberware
One to possess restricted chemicals and compounds of a non-medical nature.

Generally, most of the "R" stuff (armor and ammo) is a check at purchase as far as I'm concerned.

Then just blow another mind-boggling 400¥ on another rating 4 license. Oh noes, not 400¥!


Accessories: Internal Smartgun System, Skinlink, Sling, Sound Suppresser (replaces default Gas-Vent)
Modifications: Auto-Adjusting Underbarrel Weight [2 slots], Electronic Firing [2 slots], Extended Clip: Drum [2 slots]

That gives you a -5 dice pool on Perception Tests to hear the weapon firing, 4 points of recoil compensation, and 50- (+8 total Concealability) or 100-round (+10 total Concealability) drums. If you don't care about sound suppression, just keep the default Gas Vent for a total of 6 points of recoil compensation. And if you don't care about the ammo capacity so much, drop it down to Extended Clip [1 slot] which gives you a +25% bonus to the normal clip size and no concealability modifer (so +6 Concealability). That option also gives you one more modification slot to play with. You could add in Custom Look 2 to get a +2 dice pool modifier on any Intimidation tests you make, or Gecko Grip to make it all but impossible to disarm you, or any other of the myriad options.

Assault Rifles just aren't big on the whole concealability thing, so don't bother trying unless you're hiding it somewhere. And if you are hiding it somewhere, its Concealability doesn't really matter so much as the hiding place does. Like, say, a Smuggling Compartment in a vehicle.

OK, problems with that analysis, Doc.

7/-2 is half way between a MMG and a HMG.

You can't use a belt, which is vital for sustained fire - notice the small magazine, even with extensions. If you go with a drum, now you've got a honking item that you can't maneuver as effectively. MMGs and such also tend to have pretty sweet recoil compensation.

(goes over and looks at the MMG, because they thought it was 7/-2 as well.)

Now, besides the actual CrunchyBits^TM, subjectively, the thing just isn't designed for sustained fire, nor can it maintain it as accurately. Essentially, what I did was say average assault rifles (Light Rifle Ammo) are equivalent to 6.5mm Grendel rounds, the HAR (Medium Rifle Ammo) is more like 7.62x51mm NATO - heavier, longer range, with better penetration. At the cost of weight, of course. Heavy rifle Ammo (.460 WBM and the equivalent) goes to things like sniper rifles. X Rifle Ammo (Xtra-Heavy) is the realm of actual elephant guns and anti-material rifles (Barrett), half a step below actual heavy weapons. All the Heavy Weapons that use rifle caliber ammo have pretty good built-in recoil compensation, and that's the big chunk right there. SUBJECTIVELY, they're designed to keep up that RoF. The M-60 needs barrel changes under heavy use, but the M-240's a lot more resilient even though it uses the same round. If somebody decides they want to try to use an FN HAR as a full-up LMG, they're going to start running into things that make it clear that isn't how the weapon was meant to function. As they say "God giveth, and God taketh away".

Right, which makes it utterly superior to MMGs and LMGs. There's really no point in having one as a runner. As a military gunner or some other occupation where sustained, long-term fire really matters? Sure. But not many things in the shadows are going to stand up to a single full burst. And even a standard clip for the FN HAR gives you three of those without needing to reload, or almost six long bursts. And if you just use a basic extended clip increases that to four full bursts and seven long.

So with just your house rule of 7P/-2 AP and a standard clip, there really isn't a reason at all to have a LMG or MMG for a runner. They can't be concealed at all (which isn't saying much since an assault rifle has a Concealability of +6 anyway, but at least it has a rating), and they can't use a sound suppresser. Both of which are BigDeals™ to a runner, whereas sustained long-term firefights are not. In fact, sustained long-term firefights are a BadThing™.

Course, I hate how SR4 has all but made it pointless to carry anything except an automatic weapon. Somehow, materialized spirits can shrug off a single round from most weapons, but for some reason if you throw a lot of those same rounds at them in a single shot, it penetrates their immunity without batting an eye. So while a shotgun or even a sniper rifle won't dent a high-Force spirit, an AK-97 chucking out a full burst can. But only as a full burst. /boggle

I am thinking I am going to make the MMGs 7P/-2 same. I THOUGHT they were before. Dunno how I missed it. Oh, and sporting rifles with 7P damage codes are -2 AP. 6P rifles are -1.

An HMG is longer ranged, better at sustained fire, and has a marginally longer barrel improving penetration a bit more, so it still has advantages over the MMG, but face it:

In most hotspots, the MMG is actually the kind of the battlefield.

Yeah, but thanks to SR4's rules, those rifles pale next to an automatic weapon, too. Especially against major threats that have hardened armor.


Yes, but again how often is a good runner going to be in a fight like that compared to smaller firefights? Who needs massive range when you're fighting in an office building or a back alley? Who needs sustained fire when a single burst is enough to take down most enemies? And the penetration is exactly the same between the two, so even that's right out. This really isn't a discussion about military applications on a massive battlefield. It's about minor skirmishes with an entire group of shadowrunners who are sneaking around and avoiding drawn-out fights as much as they possibly can. And in those situations, a concealable, suppressed assault rifle that does 7P/-2 is far and away superior to a loud, impossible to hide machine gun. And when it's not, have the rest of the team use suppressive fire with their weapons while you lob a grenade in.

I mean, heck, how many runners are going to run around with ammo belts, which is the big drawing point of a machine gun? Maybe on their escape vehicle, sure, I can see that. But that's more the rigger's domain, or a passenger who happens to have Heavy Weapons when the rigger or his drone aren't available to use it instead. But not for an actual runner on an actual run.

Unless of course that GL has the FA firing selection change... For when you absolutely, positively, have to kill every last mother(bleep)er in the tri-county area.

The Orientation system is Headware, it does not fit in cyber eyes. It fits in cyberlimbs, though.

everyone who recommended one stuck it in an essence free capacity slot on an item that was at 7/8 capacity. it literally cost *just* money. and it's cheap as hell too.

I suspect we may be thinking of different uses for it too (In an environment like a forest I'd much rather have literal overlay versus having to do the translations myself), ultimately 'all' it does is take your gps/mapsoft and rotate/translate map it to your actual vision, as opposed to displaying a map. whether or not you think that's worth it is another story of course; but for around 1k nuyen and 0 essence, I'll take the rule of cool + possible other GM discretionary benefits for having one; it's hardly the first piece of cyberware that didn't confer a precise numerical bonus.

<scrolls up to find the last recommendation of one>


Odd. I don't see a single cyberlimb mentioned there. Much like I'm unfamiliar with any cyberlimb with a Capacity of 8 unless you're talking about Bulk Modification, too. Because I know you're not talking about Cybereyes since an Orientation System is a piece of headware, not eyeware.

You're right, actually. all instances where I list it as eyewear hereby withdrawn; - it should go in a cyberlimb if you install one at all, which makes it notably less useful. it does however provide a full +2 to navigation tests independent of whether or not you have a map or gps available.

Apparently I'll need to make some modifications to the SR4chargen excel sheet, since that was how I was double checking the build while away from my books...

[edit] yeah Dr. Funkenstein - mea culpa I was working off a secondary source (the chargen sheet) instead of a primary. I'd assume the other recommendation was too.

If you look at the table on pg. 150 of The Precious, no Autofire counts for defeating armor. The wording for Full Auto Mode does not mention that, unfortunately.

Ooh, thanks for pointing that out for me. Really helps with something I've been tinkering with.

Why do you need it so badly? It only increases your athletics group. While +3 to (gymnastics)dodge is good it is still quite an investment. The other three skills probably come up only rarely.

But when you need them, you need them bad.

People like to make fun of Climb, but really, we ALL have watched the news (or Cops, if that's your thing) and seen the dude get run down because he apparently didn't take climb (and strangely, the fat cop did have the running skill. Go figure).

Batman has Synthcardium. So do Parkourists. I think that is enough said. (All the cool kids are doing it.) "After all, if everyone was jumping off a building, would you do it to? With Synthcardium^tm you can!"

When you need them so bad, either use Edge(if your Edge is high) or burn Edge(for critical success).

Then you can jump off the side of a skyscraper and land perfectly safe while the corpsec pants,"That's impossible!"

A wise man once said:

"The world is made up of many fences."

Climbing comes up often once you stop thinking "straight combat" in firefights. The increase in possible jump distance is nice for the same reason.

Guards that are not augmented in a similar way will not be able to keep up with the agility (5)7 / athletics 4(+3) samurai. You pay 30k¥ for superhuman physical performance.

(And Gymnastic dodge. )