Sure. No problem. I'd do the same for anyone that thinks the (importance of RAW) > (importance of making sense), so don't feel too... special.

Implants are explicitly listed in the disease resistance test, as are protective systems - so they are not protective systems. As his Adepts powers on the other hand, are neither, Penetration can suck up and go home.

So: No.

Penetration affecty only things that don't help against HMHVV at all (pharmaceuticals) or don't help in the long run (protective systems). Keeping your Chemsiut onf after infection doesn't help.

Asamando as a ghoul nation was around a long time before Runner's Companion.

I fought to move the transformation time back to what it was in SR3, and lost. The rising mana level was what was given to me as the reason for the increased speed of transformation, and it seemed reasonable to me.

Anything that provides bonus dice to the Disease Resistance Test is a 'protective system'. Spells, adept powers, implants, dwarven resistance - all are affected by a diseases Penetration.

Anything that provides bonus dice to the Disease Resistance Test is a 'protective system'.

Spells, adept powers, implants, dwarven resistance - all are affected by a diseases Penetration.

Says who? I wrote the fucking thing, and I'd still advocate shooting them on sight in a lot of cases. The bounties were added in because a developer specifically asked for them, by the way, so saying that the devs don't want you shooting ghouls or other Infected is straight-up false.

The difference is, in my games, the House Errata is RAW, & the rules as written are it.

I'm a bit confused on the various disease rules. Can somebody post a die roll by die roll example of how this disease works (say using a body score of 12, if it's passed by skin to skin contact and body 12 can't resist it, the entire human race is ghouls by now).

Basically, GM'S should just tell their players EXACTLY what the Change will do to their character. And show an example like the above to show them what will happen with the rolling and THEN ask:
"Do you want to roll if you turn into a ghoul?" If they do not want to roll:"Do you want to turn into a ghoul or not?" End of story.

But, honestly, a) the point of the game is to have fun and b) to tell a story... The people all worrying about "what do the rules say" seem to forget that, sometimes, the Story comes first..and, well, the table is a CO-OPERATIVE storytelling experience, not a COMPETITIVE experience...

Stahlseele? This is the BEST way to do it...I would still bust out a d10, and ignore 10s, and roll to see how many they "failed" (And I would tell them that they would lose Essence...they might not be becoming a ghoul, but they will not be getting off scot free, and they will be short money and such from the intensive, 10 day medical treatment)

But, honestly, a) the point of the game is to have fun and b) to tell a story... The people all worrying about "what do the rules say" seem to forget that, sometimes, the Story comes first..and, well, the table is a CO-OPERATIVE storytelling experience, not a COMPETITIVE experience...

Next thing you tell us is to stop bitching and moaning over single lines in sourcebooks and small parts of adventures that we don't like?

Flames are a healthy part of cyberculture.

Genetech augmentations of any sort are not
available to the Infected at all, as the retrovirus in their systems resists
and rewrites any other attempt to alter the character's genetic
code.

Hmmm, that certainly does imply that all ghouls remain infected.

It's wrong, and stupid, but I suppose you get used to that after a while.

Either those Born Infected can have Genetech Augmentations or the above quote is bulldrek. If you are genetically a Ghoul but are not infectious because you don't have the virus the above logic does not apply.

Hey, Patrick, which is it then?

Can Ghouls that don't have the virus, like those that are born Ghouls, get Genetech?

Or is the explanation for why Ghouls can't get Genetech rubbish?

Without people pointing out mistakes and errors we'll not have progress and better products.

Agreed, of course. But some posters here do have their idea what "mistakes and errors" are and appear a suffering from nerd-rage over minor points from time to time.

Hey, Patrick, which is it then?

Can Ghouls that don't have the virus, like those that are born Ghouls, get Genetech?

Or is the explanation for why Ghouls can't get Genetech rubbish?

Boy, watching this lack of common sense on the part of GMs everywhere on how to deal with bad rules makes me glad that I got shot down on a couple of things I had in the early drafts....

Okay, we can do that.

Hypothetical scenario: Pachinko Mike is kicking ghoul ass in his Mitsuhama EE suit, whose full chemical seal protects him from infection as he plows through the critters with his handy assault rifle. After all is said and done, Mike pops off the hood to smoke a cigar. One of the ghouls has a bit of life left in him and tries to sneak up on Mike, but Mike catches the movement at the last minute and pops the cannibal in the head - sending blood and brains all over him, including in his mouth.

Uh-oh Mike. The GM decides you've been infected from your contact. Time to start rolling.

Twenty-four hours after his initial exposure, Mike feels like crap. Now, because he's a burly adept, he has Magic 6, an effective Body of 9, and defensive systems Natural Immunity 6 (adept power) and Pathogenic Defense 6 (implant). HMHVV-III has a Power of 8 and Penetration -6. The Penetration reduces the bonus dice from his protective systems, so he only receives (6 + 6 - 6) 6 dice from his Natural Immunity and Pathogenic Defense. Rolling his (9 + 6) 15 dice, he rolls well and scores 7 hits - enough to reduce the Power to 1, but not to eliminate it entirely, so he suffers the effects of the disease: Pain, Nausea, and 0.1 Essence loss, which brings Mike's Essence down to 5.2.

In his second day of infection, the remaining power from the previous day (Power 1) is added to the Power of the disease, so the effective power of the disease is (8 + 1) 9. Again rolling his (9 + 6) 15 dice, Mike is again lucky as hell and rolls seven successes, reducing the Power to 2 - but again, that's not enough to eliminate it entirely, so he suffers the effects of the disease: Pain, Nausea, and 0.1 Essence loss, which brings Mike's Essence down to 5.1.

Coming on the third day of infection, Mike goes to see a shaman friend of his, who correctly diagnoses the disease and casts a Cure Disease spell. The magician takes a penalty for the Essence loss Mike has already suffered from implants and disease (-1 modifier to the spellcasting test), but she gets 5 net hits, which Mike can add to his test. The Power of the disease is now (8 + 2) 10, and Mike rolls (9 + 6 + 5) 20 dice, but only scores 6 hits, reducing its Power to 4, and he again suffers the effects of the disease: Pain, Nausea, and 0.1 Essence loss, which brings Mike's Essence down to 5.0.

Getting worried, Mike dips into his savings and buys three doses of Rock Lizard Blood from his shaman friend, a magical compound with a duration of (Essence + 6) hours that offers Immunity to Disease, which grants him (Magic x 2) extra dice on his test for today; for good measure he has the shaman cast Cure Disease on him again, this time getting 4 net hits. So when it's time for him to make his fourth test, the disease has a Power of (8 + 4) 12 and Mike is rolling (9 + 6 + 4 + 12) 31 dice. Mike gets 13 successes, reducing the Power to 0 for that test, and has twenty-four hours of relief from the effects of the virus - but it's still in his system.

On the fifth day, with no more Rock Lizard Blood, Mike again shells out for a Cure Disease spell, which this time renders 6 net hits. The Power of the disease is reset at 8, and Mike is rolling (9 + 6 + 6) 21 dice, but he doesn't roll any successes and suffers the full effects of the disease: Pain, Nausea, and 0.1 Essence loss - which drops his Essence to 4.9, and worse causes him to lose a point of Magic and a point of adept powers - in this case, 4 ranks of Natural Immunity! Things aren't looking good for Mike.

Day six after infection, Mike is desperately looking for a solution, but not coming up with much luck. The Power of the disease is (8 + 16, and Mike can't hope to beat it, so he burns a point of Edge to pass the test and buy himself a little breathing space.

Day seven after infection, Mike has called in some favors, and now his shaman friend and her friends have gathered around to ritual-cast a Cure Disease spell on him, which comes up with a whopping 12 net hits. The Power of the disease is 8, and he rolls (9 + 2 + 12) 23 dice, just getting 7 hits and reducing the Power to 1. He suffers the usual round of Pain, Nausea, and Essence loss - his Essence is now at 4.8, and he's lost 0.5 Essence to the disease.

Day eight, Mike gets a call from a street doc who hooks him up with a Nephritic screen (rating 4) on short notice. Although it costs 0.4 Essence (bringing him down to 4.4), it offers 4 additional dice to protecting against the disease. The Power of the disease is (8 + 1) 9, and Mike rolls (9 + 6) 15 dice, scoring 6 successes. More Pain, more Nausea, more Essence loss - he's now at 4.3, and he's lost 0.6 Essence to the disease.

At the start of the ninth day, Mike's street docs starts him on a treatment of o-cells (rating 3). O-cells reduce the Power of the virus, which today has a Power of (8 + 3 - 3) 8. Mike rolls (9 + 6) 15 dice, scoring 5 successes. The familiar drill of Pain, Nausea, and Essence loss - he's now at 4.2, and he's lost 0.7 Essence to the disease.

Day ten, the street doc and shaman get together to try and drive this thing from Mike's system with O-cells (rating 3) and a Cure Disease spell (5 net hits). The Power of the disease is (8 + 3 - 3) 8, and Mike is rolling (9 + 6 + 5) 20 dice; he scores seven hits. His two friends can only look on as Mike suffers more Pain, more Nausea, and Essence loss - he's now at 4.1, and he's lost 0.8 Essence to the disease.

That said, it's not all bad news for Mike. The initial period of the disease is over, he's now made the ten required tests, and the Power of the disease will no longer accumulate.

Day eleven, the street doc administers another round of O-cells (rating 3), and the shaman tries another Cure Disease spell (8 net hits - yay overcasting). The Power of the disease is (8 - 3) 5, and Mike is rolling (9 + 6 + 23 dice. Mike's GM lets the long-suffering player trade 4 dice in for a hit, and Mike easily gets more hits than he needs to reduce the disease's Power to zero. To everyone's relief, Mike sleeps quietly without the need for pain killers or anti-nausea drugs, and blood tests show the virus is gone from his system.

Of course, for his trouble Mike has lost 0.8 Essence to the disease. If he suffers another 0.2 Essence loss to HMHVV-III again, he's going to become a ghoul.

Now if he had just gone to the street doc immideatly and gotten something like O-cells 6, he probaply wouldn't have failed a single test and would have spend a lot less money.

If you fear that your gonna face ghouls and get infected, just make a hapid of carrying a couple of vialls of rating 6-8 O-cells with you and inject them to your system bewore the first test.

Now if he had just gone to the street doc immideatly and gotten something like O-cells 6, he probaply wouldn't have failed a single test and would have spend a lot less money.

If you fear that your gonna face ghouls and get infected, just make a hapid of carrying a couple of vialls of rating 6-8 O-cells with you and inject them to your system bewore the first test.

That's no trivial cost though, which would make dealing with ghouls, or ghoul-infested areas, very costly.

It's generally called 'Rule Zero' or something like that.

It's also present in almost every single tabletop RPG I've ever read in the last 20 years. And I read a lot of RPGs (just for fun! I'm weird like that)

It's generally called 'Rule Zero' or something like that.

It's also present in almost every single tabletop RPG I've ever read in the last 20 years. And I read a lot of RPGs (just for fun! I'm weird like that)

Edit: Congrats on 5000 posts & Great Dragon status

Boy, watching this lack of common sense on the part of GMs everywhere on how to deal with bad rules makes me glad that I got shot down on a couple of things I had in the early drafts....

That's a direct quote from Ancient History.

Uh, wait what? The only part of that you quoted from me was "your little world" and that's because you already stated you're basically ignoring everything about ghouls past the 2nd edition core book.

Good thing I retconned the whole ghouls stuff long ago. The infection can be cured before the transformation occurs, and ghouls are monsters, KOS in most civilized countries. No one argues for granting them any rights.

Seeing as ghouls have been presented as actual people rather than just Karma-on-the-hoof since second edition, Fuchs, I'm glad you're happy playing in your own little world.

I don't really see where I'd have misrepesented you - you are glad ghouls are not KOS anymore.

I don't really see where I'd have misrepesented you - you are glad ghouls are not KOS anymore.

If a rule is bad, why write it?

Please realize that we are more than capable to change the rules and setting

- but that does not preclude us from voicing our opinion, in the hope things get better and errors get fixed. I'd consider it a lack of common sense to assume things will change for the better if no one complains.

Also, while inividual games cna easily be adapted, some play in other games, where people go with the official rules, and therefore it's of interest to them to make sure the official rules are good and working, and do not contradict the fluff.