Target numbers can't be lower than two.
Yes there are problems with our melee. There are problems with SR melee in general. Our rules just link the target number to hit with the target's skill as simply as possible. It makes sense to us that your ability to hit me is directly related to my melee skill.
All I can say is that we encounter few problems and none that couldn't be resolved with common sense.
Full Version: Things in need of revision
What Lacemaker said.
I can see how there's some logic to the position -- I disagree with it, it makes me want to do something to take it from the abstract into something more concrete, but that's just my personal reaction to it.. I tend to fight with more than a little 'evil' thrown in for good measure though, so I'd want to have the option of things beyond called shots (which I hardly ever use because of the +4 TN) and timing use of combat pool.
A suggestion that might be of interest: Allow people to fight with varying degrees of 'defend' vs 'attack'. It's really hard to stop someone who's committed to an all-out assault, even if they don't even remotely attempt to protect themselves. Just because someone is an olympic level fighter doesn't mean they use attack at olympic level and defend at olympic level. They might attack at well beyond, but have very little defence, overwhelming their opponent. Or they might have a nearly unbeatable defence, but barely attack.
It adds to the complexity, but it seems in line with what you're saying. I'd personally assume equal attack/defend, unless specifically stated otherwise, but allowing it would be a nice alternative.
A suggestion that might be of interest: Allow people to fight with varying degrees of 'defend' vs 'attack'. It's really hard to stop someone who's committed to an all-out assault, even if they don't even remotely attempt to protect themselves. Just because someone is an olympic level fighter doesn't mean they use attack at olympic level and defend at olympic level. They might attack at well beyond, but have very little defence, overwhelming their opponent. Or they might have a nearly unbeatable defence, but barely attack.
It adds to the complexity, but it seems in line with what you're saying. I'd personally assume equal attack/defend, unless specifically stated otherwise, but allowing it would be a nice alternative.
I'm pickin' up what you're laying down. All we wanted to do was make melee more logical without super-complicating things.
I always saw the Combat Pool as the Attack/Defend mix. If you use your CP primarialy for the attack test you're on full(ish) offense. If you reserve a lot of CP for resisting damage, you are fighting defensively. This provides a reward for fighting offensivley, because you only use your CP when you fail in the attack.
I always saw the Combat Pool as the Attack/Defend mix. If you use your CP primarialy for the attack test you're on full(ish) offense. If you reserve a lot of CP for resisting damage, you are fighting defensively. This provides a reward for fighting offensivley, because you only use your CP when you fail in the attack.
Well, the thing is under the current system, with the defender opposing your successes with his own melee skill, there already *is* an affect by the defender's skill. All you've done here is make each person's melee skill count twice in melee, which is no good because it makes the guy with Melee 5 completely useless against the guy with Melee 6, rather than just effectively useless as is the current situation. 
If you really want to do it this way, then get rid of the opposed roll by the defender. In fact, that would be a good way to simulate the "attack or defend" idea that Dawnshadow wants to add. Here's my idea: melee TNs are as outlined in SR, but there is no opposed roll by the defender. Instead, the defender can, on his turn, choose to withhold dice from his own attack. The number of dice the defender withholds is added to the TN for any attacker to hit him until the defender's next turn, or he is attacked twice by the same person (ie someone gets an extra initiative pass over him by just being that much faster.)
So, basically, say two guys square off, one with Skill 8 and one with Skill 6. The guy with skill 6 goes first. Not wanting to get creamed by guy with skill 8, he chooses to attack defensively, withholding four dice and attacking with only two dice plus two more from combat pool against the base TN of 4 (Skill 8 guy is slower, so he can't put on active defense yet.) He gets two successes, easily dodged by Skill 8 guy's Combat Pool.
Next is Skill 8 guy. He really wants to beat down on Skill 6 guy, but being smart he still withholds 2 dice for defense anyway (which'll help him on the next pass.) He throws 6 dice against a TN of 8 (4 plus 4 from withheld dice), also getting two successes. Skill 6 guy dodges as well, but now he's out of combat pool and there's one pass to go. Skill 6 guy starts sweating feverishly.
If you really want to do it this way, then get rid of the opposed roll by the defender. In fact, that would be a good way to simulate the "attack or defend" idea that Dawnshadow wants to add. Here's my idea: melee TNs are as outlined in SR, but there is no opposed roll by the defender. Instead, the defender can, on his turn, choose to withhold dice from his own attack. The number of dice the defender withholds is added to the TN for any attacker to hit him until the defender's next turn, or he is attacked twice by the same person (ie someone gets an extra initiative pass over him by just being that much faster.)
So, basically, say two guys square off, one with Skill 8 and one with Skill 6. The guy with skill 6 goes first. Not wanting to get creamed by guy with skill 8, he chooses to attack defensively, withholding four dice and attacking with only two dice plus two more from combat pool against the base TN of 4 (Skill 8 guy is slower, so he can't put on active defense yet.) He gets two successes, easily dodged by Skill 8 guy's Combat Pool.
Next is Skill 8 guy. He really wants to beat down on Skill 6 guy, but being smart he still withholds 2 dice for defense anyway (which'll help him on the next pass.) He throws 6 dice against a TN of 8 (4 plus 4 from withheld dice), also getting two successes. Skill 6 guy dodges as well, but now he's out of combat pool and there's one pass to go. Skill 6 guy starts sweating feverishly.
I'd bet quite a lot that melee is one of the things that will see rather big changes in SR4.
Here's hoping.
The problem with holding and withholding an arbitrary number of dice from future offensive rolls, to augment existing defensive rolls, to me, is that it smacks of the existing setup for Sorcery (i.e. spellcasting and spell defense), a skill usage that I find somewhat incongruous with the rest of the skill system, and therein a complicating factor. I'd prefer things like that be done away with, rather than introduced in greater number.
I'd like to see variable pricing more smooth in progression.
It's rather silly that an item at X rating have the multiplier for the price change based on the rating. A rating 4 is not that much more powerful than a rating 3 yes in some cases it costs much much more.
Find a good mediam multiplier an stick with it throughout the rating progression.
It's rather silly that an item at X rating have the multiplier for the price change based on the rating. A rating 4 is not that much more powerful than a rating 3 yes in some cases it costs much much more.
Find a good mediam multiplier an stick with it throughout the rating progression.
I don't know about that actually.. there are thresholds to how good a specific device can be using specific components.. if the difference between rating 1-3 is minor advances, but all the same components, but 3-4 is a sudden tech jump (they all use some more advanced component), then the price should jump there
| QUOTE (Wireknight) |
| The problem with holding and withholding an arbitrary number of dice from future offensive rolls, to augment existing defensive rolls, to me, is that it smacks of the existing setup for Sorcery (i.e. spellcasting and spell defense), a skill usage that I find somewhat incongruous with the rest of the skill system, and therein a complicating factor. I'd prefer things like that be done away with, rather than introduced in greater number. |
Eh, the reason I dislike the Spell Defense mechanic (as well as the multiple-spells-in-one-round mechanic) as it currently stands is more because it treats skill dice like a dice pool, and it doesn't need to make that exception because there already *is* a Spell Pool ready and waiting.
In this case though you're not really using your skill like a pool by withholding part of it for later; you're using the whole thing at once, in two aspects of what is essentially the same action (attack and defense). I guess I don't have a problem with a person using a skill, then deciding to hold back while using it to get another effect related to that skill use. It seems pretty logical to me.Do you at least admit that the withholding dice for an increased TN to be hit is a better mechanic than the current counterattacking system, where a guy who moves three times as fast is actually at a disadvantage because it means he loses to the slow guy three times faster?
I think spell defence and the pool system are fine the way they are. They allow a more inteligent (you will note that Int does not help learn skills faster or cheaper but is a component in all the pools) opponent to gain some measure of advantage in combat ect. It also allows as previously stated to decide the extent to which a character commits their reserves and concentration to a single action.
I dissagre that the sorcery used as spell pool for determining attack and defence is broken. If you conceptualize it as there is a totoal amount of magic a charecter can minipulate any given turn, equal to sorcery skill plus spell pool. This finite amount of magic is all you get to either attack or defend with this turn. The problem is that this is not how any other pool system works, but then again the use of maneuvers in CC is unique as well.
If any thing is revised in SR 4 it should be a more uniform system for the use of pool and their benifits to skill sets.
I dissagre that the sorcery used as spell pool for determining attack and defence is broken. If you conceptualize it as there is a totoal amount of magic a charecter can minipulate any given turn, equal to sorcery skill plus spell pool. This finite amount of magic is all you get to either attack or defend with this turn. The problem is that this is not how any other pool system works, but then again the use of maneuvers in CC is unique as well.
If any thing is revised in SR 4 it should be a more uniform system for the use of pool and their benifits to skill sets.
| QUOTE |
| Do you at least admit that the withholding dice for an increased TN to be hit is a better mechanic than the current counterattacking system, where a guy who moves three times as fast is actually at a disadvantage because it means he loses to the slow guy three times faster? |
You are free to shoot, not attack or even disengage on your turn, with out penalties or incurring counter attacks. A character is not trapped in to a melee beating in SR unlike D&D.
| QUOTE (Mr. Woodchuck) |
| I think spell defence and the pool system are fine the way they are. They allow a more inteligent (you will note that Int does not help learn skills faster or cheaper but is a component in all the pools) opponent to gain some measure of advantage in combat ect. It also allows as previously stated to decide the extent to which a character commits their reserves and concentration to a single action. |
Actually this is just another point in the favor of people who want Spell Defense to be rolled into Spell Pool. As it currently stands, Int has *nothing* to do with Spell Defense, as Spell Pool has nothing to do with Spell Defense. This is unlike every other place where Intelligence increases the number of dice you have for "active defense" (Combat Pool/Control Pool for dodging, Hacking Pool for "improvesed Defense"). Note btw that both of these examples use *pool* dice rather than *skill* dice, which is the default for these sorts of "active" defenses.
| QUOTE |
| I dissagre that the sorcery used as spell pool for determining attack and defence is broken. If you conceptualize it as there is a totoal amount of magic a charecter can minipulate any given turn, equal to sorcery skill plus spell pool. This finite amount of magic is all you get to either attack or defend with this turn. The problem is that this is not how any other pool system works, but then again the use of maneuvers in CC is unique as well. If any thing is revised in SR 4 it should be a more uniform system for the use of pool and their benifits to skill sets. |
You're absolutely right: Sorcery and Spell Pool together should determine how good you are at attacking and defending with magic, same as a weapon skill and Combat Pool should determine how good you are at attacking and defending in physical space. And they are, but in different ways that don't really add anything to the game except confusion. Having Spell Pool work for incoming spells like Combat Pool works for incoming bullets, and leaving the Sorcery skill to work like the Pistols/Assault Rifles/Gunnery skills is much more streamlined and intuitive.
The Maneuvers in CC are a good example of where I'm going for with my variant melee rule, actually. You take a specific penalty to your attack to get a specific bonus for a specific amount of time (in this case one initiative pass). It differs from the way Sorcery dice are "allocated" right now in that each time you want to use your melee skill for anything it requires an action to do it; you must sacrifice X number of dice from your melee skill on your pass for this pass to get Y benefit for that pass, rather than allocating X dice from your skill for an unspecified amount of time (until you re-allocate it.) The first sounds more like how you use a skill, while the second sounds more like how you use a resource pool. Make sense?
The Maneuvers in CC are a good example of where I'm going for with my variant melee rule, actually. You take a specific penalty to your attack to get a specific bonus for a specific amount of time (in this case one initiative pass). It differs from the way Sorcery dice are "allocated" right now in that each time you want to use your melee skill for anything it requires an action to do it; you must sacrifice X number of dice from your melee skill on your pass for this pass to get Y benefit for that pass, rather than allocating X dice from your skill for an unspecified amount of time (until you re-allocate it.) The first sounds more like how you use a skill, while the second sounds more like how you use a resource pool. Make sense?
| QUOTE | ||
You are free to shoot, not attack or even disengage on your turn, with out penalties or incurring counter attacks. A character is not trapped in to a melee beating in SR unlike D&D. |
Neither is he under my variant system. One major point of my idea, though, is you can't just have your cake and eat it too: When you're not paying any attention to someone who's in melee with you you don't just get a free defense/counterattack roll for nothing. A guy with Melee 6 fighting a bunch of melee 4 guys under the current system can use his own actions for shooting distant people, casting spells, reading a book, etc. and still get to counterattack on the other guys' turns without ever using an action, or even paying any attention to the melee. In fact, with his skill two points higher, he'll almost certainly even win. It seems really stupid to me that there's such a huge power level gap between small differences in melee skill that a person with melee 6 can be drinking tea while beating down the guy with a melee skill only 1 or 2 points below him, and win the vast majority of the time.
I never said it was broken. I said it complicates things and needn't really behave that way. The whole point of streamlining a set of rules would be to eliminate little instances where added complexity brings little real benefit to the table, and this is one such situation.
For what it's worth, I vote for spell defence as a function of an increased spell pool. It makes more mechanical sense in the perspective of how the other skills work.
On a side note, I can't remember if this has come up already in this thread but I'd like to see "geasing away magic loss for cyber implantation" taking a fall. You want to screw with your magic, you go ahead and screw with your magic. But take the consequences.
On a side note, I can't remember if this has come up already in this thread but I'd like to see "geasing away magic loss for cyber implantation" taking a fall. You want to screw with your magic, you go ahead and screw with your magic. But take the consequences.
Don't know if it was already mentioned (and i don't have the time to read the whole 6 pages of this thread): i want a possiblity for mundane and only mundane characters to purchase additional essence points. Like an adept spend 20 karma and gains a power point, a mundane should be able to do so with essence. So there's room for deveopment of cyber chars besides 6 points worth of cyber.
I want cheaper alphaware, more bioware and i want cyber/bio that only works with non-magical characters.
More power for the mundanes!
Yep.
I want cheaper alphaware, more bioware and i want cyber/bio that only works with non-magical characters.
More power for the mundanes!
Yep.
| QUOTE |
| More power for the mundanes! |
Actually, in many ways I think you and I are on the same page here. Reducing the ability of mages and adepts to get shedloads of cyber without suffering the consequences would empower mundanes at the same time
I guess our numbers are increasing every day 
I would love to see a possibility for mundes to implant more cyber in their body and have access to some special items/cyber only they could use. I know it's possible with alpha , beta and deltaware, but honestly: how much chars are running around with higher-grade cyber? Not as much as double-figures initated mages. It's easier for mages and adepts to increase their powers than it is for munades. That gap must be closed. But we had the discussion several times here on dumpshock and i'm sure the writers are aware of that.
I would love to see a possibility for mundes to implant more cyber in their body and have access to some special items/cyber only they could use. I know it's possible with alpha , beta and deltaware, but honestly: how much chars are running around with higher-grade cyber? Not as much as double-figures initated mages. It's easier for mages and adepts to increase their powers than it is for munades. That gap must be closed. But we had the discussion several times here on dumpshock and i'm sure the writers are aware of that.
You, uhh...you have more "double digit grade initiates" in your game world than people with "higher grade" cyberware?
No, not in my game. But i know more players of initaites (ok, not double-figured) than of chars with deltaware. It's so ridicoulos expensive and difficult to get access to a delta-clinic...
Ain't nothin' wrong with Betaware, man, it'll pump someone up just fine. Alphaware can definately handle your basic needs, anyways.
I think it's the eternal war of "infinite progression for Awakened" vs "finite progression for cyber". Although I support more empowerment for mundanes, I have to say that, to me, that argument is meaningless within the average game. Although awakened types have a theoretically unlimited advancement path compared to the iron-clad 6 essence points of cybered types, in practical game terms the distinction is pretty much irrelevant since karma awards limit the initiation process.
As i said before, it's an often discussed topic and will likely never come to a satisfying end. I support the "more power for mundanes" and hopefully the writers of SR4 too. We'll see what happened. Just wanted to make some suggestions and not start a new discussion about the topic.
How about instead of Spend karma get instant power for the Magical Haves, they spend the karma and have to make a test, based on current magic attribute for the TN. Fail and you lose the karma, succeed and you gain power. To balance this, reduce the cost for initiation, or have ordeals reduce the TN.
Mundanes could have a similair process where they regain some of their humanity lost from the cyberware. Spend karma make a Charisma test equal to (8-Current Essence), succeed and you recover a point of essence. This means you can't go over 6 points, but you could eventually properly integrate the metal into your psyche.
Of course, i see botches as a means to remove Magic or Essence in these tests.
Mundanes could have a similair process where they regain some of their humanity lost from the cyberware. Spend karma make a Charisma test equal to (8-Current Essence), succeed and you recover a point of essence. This means you can't go over 6 points, but you could eventually properly integrate the metal into your psyche.
Of course, i see botches as a means to remove Magic or Essence in these tests.
Something else that struck me as odd.
In theory, unless you are being paid in untraceable lumps of gold (which get remarked upon when you try to get cash for them) it's impossible for runners to get paid safely in the system as it is.
Anyone that thinks that certified credsticks are untraceable needs to understand banking.
Yes, they don't know who owms the stick when a purchase is made, that much we get. But it doesn't stop there. The money was put on there from somewhere, someone's name is attached to the funds that put the nuyen on that stick. That person is likely connected to you in some way, maybe it's the johnson, maybe it's a make name attached to the Johnson, who knows.
Also, the stick should have a unique identifier on it somewhere that gets logged when you use it instead of your ID. If you think any bank worth being called one would allow for such an anonymous system that doesn't track these sticks, then you're nuts. Banks hate laundering and counterfeiting schemes, and let's face it, certified cred-sticks with no way to identify one from another is just asking to be defrauded.
To hopefully make this more clear:
You just bought a new gun to replace the one you had to dump from the last run. You use a certified credstick to buy that gun, balance remaining around 3000 nuyen, give or take. That gun's ballistic signature is on file (probably recorded at time of manufacture), you use that gun on the next run and have to ditch it again. All is well in the Shadows, right? Wrong. Now the Star can link the gun to the stick, they start tracking other purchases made with the stick. They find out who put the money ont he stick and go shake them down for more information on who the stick was given to and why. They begin tracking new purchases made on the stick (remember, they still might not have a name to attach) eventually, you buy a stick of gum and a tank of juice for your bike at the stuffer shack with the stick. Bingo, you're on camera cause it'd be suspicous as all hell to be masked at a gas station. They now have a face to connect to the stick. So now they are tracing the stick and facial recognition software tracing surveilance tapes from unsolved crime cases and they start noticing a pattern. Eventually, you might slip and pay rent with that stick, so now the cops have an address for your doss. Give ya three guesses who gets a visit in a short time period.
All that can happen with a very simple database query and a search on some surveilance tapes. It's not a time consuming project and is well within the bounds of sanity for tracking down a murderer or at least an armed criminal.
In theory, unless you are being paid in untraceable lumps of gold (which get remarked upon when you try to get cash for them) it's impossible for runners to get paid safely in the system as it is.
Anyone that thinks that certified credsticks are untraceable needs to understand banking.
Yes, they don't know who owms the stick when a purchase is made, that much we get. But it doesn't stop there. The money was put on there from somewhere, someone's name is attached to the funds that put the nuyen on that stick. That person is likely connected to you in some way, maybe it's the johnson, maybe it's a make name attached to the Johnson, who knows.
Also, the stick should have a unique identifier on it somewhere that gets logged when you use it instead of your ID. If you think any bank worth being called one would allow for such an anonymous system that doesn't track these sticks, then you're nuts. Banks hate laundering and counterfeiting schemes, and let's face it, certified cred-sticks with no way to identify one from another is just asking to be defrauded.
To hopefully make this more clear:
You just bought a new gun to replace the one you had to dump from the last run. You use a certified credstick to buy that gun, balance remaining around 3000 nuyen, give or take. That gun's ballistic signature is on file (probably recorded at time of manufacture), you use that gun on the next run and have to ditch it again. All is well in the Shadows, right? Wrong. Now the Star can link the gun to the stick, they start tracking other purchases made with the stick. They find out who put the money ont he stick and go shake them down for more information on who the stick was given to and why. They begin tracking new purchases made on the stick (remember, they still might not have a name to attach) eventually, you buy a stick of gum and a tank of juice for your bike at the stuffer shack with the stick. Bingo, you're on camera cause it'd be suspicous as all hell to be masked at a gas station. They now have a face to connect to the stick. So now they are tracing the stick and facial recognition software tracing surveilance tapes from unsolved crime cases and they start noticing a pattern. Eventually, you might slip and pay rent with that stick, so now the cops have an address for your doss. Give ya three guesses who gets a visit in a short time period.
All that can happen with a very simple database query and a search on some surveilance tapes. It's not a time consuming project and is well within the bounds of sanity for tracking down a murderer or at least an armed criminal.
Heh. The CSI Effect at work.
what CSI? I work for a Bank, supporting the fraud department. Aside from the facial recognition software (we have to do it manually at the moment) this is doable now with gift cards (closest modern approximation to a certified credstick)
Look, that's all well and good, but already have to manage a bank account and a credit card in the real world. I don't feel like micromanaging things so obsessively in a game. When I GM, any money my players get may as well be treated like gold coins going into a purse, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
I think I left out my point.
We need cash to become the norm in SR4.
It makes sense that there'd be a resurgence of foldable cash after the crash.
We need cash to become the norm in SR4.
It makes sense that there'd be a resurgence of foldable cash after the crash.
Ohhhh... OK. Nevermind then, I agree completely.
As it stands, it's only by GM fiat that runners last more than a couple of weeks.
heh. probably less GM fiat, and more GM lack of understanding.
i dunno. i think it's much more likely that certified cred works like this: you go to a bank, and purchase a certified credstick. the bank accepts your money, and generates a credstick from its own money, so that there's no link between you and the credstick except for the fact that you possess it. the credstick has a unique identifier which is matched to an account in the bank; when funds are drawn from the credstick, they're actually drawn from the anonymous account. no fuss, no muss, no possibility of forging unless you've already hacked the bank.
i dunno. i think it's much more likely that certified cred works like this: you go to a bank, and purchase a certified credstick. the bank accepts your money, and generates a credstick from its own money, so that there's no link between you and the credstick except for the fact that you possess it. the credstick has a unique identifier which is matched to an account in the bank; when funds are drawn from the credstick, they're actually drawn from the anonymous account. no fuss, no muss, no possibility of forging unless you've already hacked the bank.
Certified Credsticks do, mfb (they're like cash, but not as bulky).. other credsticks on the other hand.. those have ID built into them.
It's explained in the SR3 corebook, p 238-9.
It's explained in the SR3 corebook, p 238-9.
But, there is no cash int eh game generally, which means you gotta use a normal credstick to get that certified one. Also, they'd ask for a name when they sold the certified. Banks like to know who they are dealing with, just in case it's a money laundering scheme.
Basically, the people that thought up the credstick concept for SR1 didn't understand how banks work, that has held true for the last 20 some odd years.
The system as described in the books doesn't work from a bank standpoint, they got the concept right but left out details that destroy logic without explaining why.
If they left it out because it would mena that no criminal activity could be paid for through a bank, then that's fine, but it is what a bank, any bank, would strive for.
Basically, the people that thought up the credstick concept for SR1 didn't understand how banks work, that has held true for the last 20 some odd years.
The system as described in the books doesn't work from a bank standpoint, they got the concept right but left out details that destroy logic without explaining why.
If they left it out because it would mena that no criminal activity could be paid for through a bank, then that's fine, but it is what a bank, any bank, would strive for.
Certified credsticks have NO name or id attached. It's like going into a bank and buying a money order. They don't care about your name, they take the money and give you something equivalent (and take a little extra for their time)
Actually, they do get your name when you get a money order, and it is logged in their records. New laws in place state that they have to report any transaction over 2000 to the treasury. At least int he US
I think I used the wrong analogy, sorry.
It might have been better to describe it as a currency exchange place. That's almost exactly what it is, except you aren't getting a wad of bills and coins, just a little stick.
Besides, certified cred doesn't care who uses it, so who first bought the credstick doesn't matter.. he owed something 200 nuyen, so gave them the 200 nuyen certified credstick..
It might have been better to describe it as a currency exchange place. That's almost exactly what it is, except you aren't getting a wad of bills and coins, just a little stick.
Besides, certified cred doesn't care who uses it, so who first bought the credstick doesn't matter.. he owed something 200 nuyen, so gave them the 200 nuyen certified credstick..
Right, but then that 200 nuyen is used to purchase something that gets found at a crime scene, so they start following the stick till they get a photo
That's a lot like 'we know someone paid for this gun with these $100 bills.. lets track them down'. It's not as easy as you make it sound, because certified credsticks get passed around like cash, as well as having their balances reduced. It's possible, but it'd be useless. Who's going to remember which credstick they gave where? It's possible.. but it depends a lot on how recently the credstick was issued.
well, cash is very different.
I support a db that tracks fraud by tracking ALL our customer card useage. Trust me, if a cop says hey, can you give me the card numbers from this merchant at this time. We can, and give him the expenditures for several weeks prior.
I support a db that tracks fraud by tracking ALL our customer card useage. Trust me, if a cop says hey, can you give me the card numbers from this merchant at this time. We can, and give him the expenditures for several weeks prior.
mmhmm... so you have the id number for a stick of certified credit. That doesn't help much though -- it doesn't identify who used it, who purchased it, or any of the times it was just handed over like a bill for x nuyen. That's what I'm getting at -- certified cred combines cash and credit-card -- all the untracableness of cash, all the convenience of credit-card.
You're exactly right, when it comes to a non-certified credstick. It'd be easy as can be. But a certified credstick behaves like cash -- or, if you prefer, like an electronic gift certificate. I think they use them in Walmart in the states -- I know they do in some of the bookstores up here. You put x amount of money on them, and they behave like cash, but there's no name, anyone can use them.
You're exactly right, when it comes to a non-certified credstick. It'd be easy as can be. But a certified credstick behaves like cash -- or, if you prefer, like an electronic gift certificate. I think they use them in Walmart in the states -- I know they do in some of the bookstores up here. You put x amount of money on them, and they behave like cash, but there's no name, anyone can use them.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| well, cash is very different. I support a db that tracks fraud by tracking ALL our customer card useage. Trust me, if a cop says hey, can you give me the card numbers from this merchant at this time. We can, and give him the expenditures for several weeks prior. |
Let me put it this way: as far as we know, Keynesian Kid and Chromed Accountant both accept certified credsticks. Therefore, for whatever reason, I consider it reasonable to assume that they are not as easily traceable as you say they are.
~J
But, if they get say 20 transactions on that same certified stick in an area, they have a good idea that the holder of that stick is there as well. They pull the security footge and correlate transactions with people wakling in and out. After 5 or six comparisons, they'll likely have a real good idea who is using the stick. With a face they can generally find you or at least be that much closer to. r worst of all, someone pays their rent with the same stick they bought the gun with. then they are fried (and rightfully so).
Those are chracters built inside the system flawed by a lack of understanding of bank procedures.
People argue all teh time for better rules on guns, martial arts, electronics, driving, etc. because that's their own field of knowledge.
I'd say getting the money system right is as importnant because every character uses it.
Those are chracters built inside the system flawed by a lack of understanding of bank procedures.
People argue all teh time for better rules on guns, martial arts, electronics, driving, etc. because that's their own field of knowledge.
I'd say getting the money system right is as importnant because every character uses it.
It's possible. It's not easy though -- and it only works if they use certified credsticks like credit cards specifically. I know I play with them weighing in on the 'cash' side more.. carry a few certified credsticks for 100 nuyen, and just hand them over. Presto, person checks, yep, these three are 100 nuyen, this one is 40 nuyen.. total purchase is 335 nuyen, so he gets a 5 nuyen credstick back, leaves the others. Buys a snack somewhere else, just leaves the credstick there.
Yes, you could tabulate all the video footage of various places and see who's in all of them.. but it's not certain to work. You have lots of false hits, because the credsticks DO get passed around. All of the sudden, you have x different purchases, with completely different people in several. No faces in common. No direct intersections -- because the credstick got handed over to someone else for something on the street.
The money system does have to be gotten right -- but there are limits to how much tracking can be done on something that's tossed around like cash.
Yes, you could tabulate all the video footage of various places and see who's in all of them.. but it's not certain to work. You have lots of false hits, because the credsticks DO get passed around. All of the sudden, you have x different purchases, with completely different people in several. No faces in common. No direct intersections -- because the credstick got handed over to someone else for something on the street.
The money system does have to be gotten right -- but there are limits to how much tracking can be done on something that's tossed around like cash.
The guns, martial arts, etc. are all based on physical properties of the world. Bank transactions are not. You can argue that it doesn't make sense that they aren't traceable, but you can't argue that they are traceable.
~J
~J
Dawn, that's fine. Not everyone passes the sticks around. Doing so would definitely confuse the cops.
Kage, that statement makes no sense. Bank transactions are traceable. Even cash is traceable to a degree. As just about everything a teller does is logged. Cop wants to know if someone came in and got a grand from a branch, they can pull up every cash withdrawl for 1000 in a matter of minutes. Then they can even hand the cop a copy of the security tapes for any transaction.
I'd just like it to make more sense. Right now you are saying that certified credsticks are the penultimate essence of untraceable cash. It's just not logical, they are trackable. Sure, it might lead the cops on a goose chase, but it still gives them a lead to follow. I'd like to see that at least acknowledged in SR4.
If credsticks had no way to be uniquely identified, there would be so many counterfeit sticks on the street it'd be sad and the economy would grind to a halt. Each stick must have a unique ID, nothing else prevents counterfeiting. Since each stick has an ID number, when it is used at a store to purchase something, there is a record of that stick being used. Sure it might be handed to someone a minute later and they might use it somewhere else but the fact remains that someone used it, was likely on camera at the time depending on where it was used. That gets a picture to the 'Star. That increases their chances of finding you greatly.
Kage, that statement makes no sense. Bank transactions are traceable. Even cash is traceable to a degree. As just about everything a teller does is logged. Cop wants to know if someone came in and got a grand from a branch, they can pull up every cash withdrawl for 1000 in a matter of minutes. Then they can even hand the cop a copy of the security tapes for any transaction.
I'd just like it to make more sense. Right now you are saying that certified credsticks are the penultimate essence of untraceable cash. It's just not logical, they are trackable. Sure, it might lead the cops on a goose chase, but it still gives them a lead to follow. I'd like to see that at least acknowledged in SR4.
If credsticks had no way to be uniquely identified, there would be so many counterfeit sticks on the street it'd be sad and the economy would grind to a halt. Each stick must have a unique ID, nothing else prevents counterfeiting. Since each stick has an ID number, when it is used at a store to purchase something, there is a record of that stick being used. Sure it might be handed to someone a minute later and they might use it somewhere else but the fact remains that someone used it, was likely on camera at the time depending on where it was used. That gets a picture to the 'Star. That increases their chances of finding you greatly.
Nah, the ultimate is cash itself. I just don't want it to go so far overboard that you are automatically found if they want to find you, just because you used certified credit. If you use non-certified then yes, you should be found -- or at least that identity, but certified credit shouldn't be a 'snap of the fingers, you're found out'.
It depends on what you think the prevailing attitude towards certified credsticks are too.. if they're used like credit cards, why isn't the money just put on your regular credstick? They can be, but that seems really redundent to me -- I like seeing them more as cash. Not untraceable by default, but untraceable quite readily if you want to take some basic precautions.
It depends on what you think the prevailing attitude towards certified credsticks are too.. if they're used like credit cards, why isn't the money just put on your regular credstick? They can be, but that seems really redundent to me -- I like seeing them more as cash. Not untraceable by default, but untraceable quite readily if you want to take some basic precautions.
Well, yes, the cops have to want to find you.
Maybe some mechanic for teh GM to use for the legwork of the cops if/when they investigate something.
And personally, I'd prefer a return to physical currency as a commonality. Currently Corp Scrip is available, but that's like saying "Geek me" to the corp.
Maybe some mechanic for teh GM to use for the legwork of the cops if/when they investigate something.
And personally, I'd prefer a return to physical currency as a commonality. Currently Corp Scrip is available, but that's like saying "Geek me" to the corp.
Just as long as you agree that certified credit isn't an instant "please arrest me, I'm the one you want". A mechanic for cop legwork would be good.. although I don't think it's really necessairy, like I said, I envision certified credit as very very easy to become untraceable using. If they don't, and they actually do end up ticking the 'Star off enough, then they should be harassed after a little while. Maybe not outright arrested, but harassed, because everyone is pretty sure they did it, but don't have enough proof. But, it all comes down to the PCs.. if they're intelligent about using credit and certified credit, then they should be fine. If they're cocky brats, they deserve a night with Bubby the 12 foot tall troll...
Basically.
I've seen runners hang on to certified's throughout their carreer. They definitely need to get the occaisional called in for questioning.
I've seen runners hang on to certified's throughout their carreer. They definitely need to get the occaisional called in for questioning.
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