How do you determine the maximum augmented attribute ratings of critters?

This normally isn't a question, but if you cast Increase Strength on your guard dog, for example, the maximum rating comes into play.

Racial augmented maxes tend to be unaugmented max + 1/3rd rounded down. That rule is broken in several places though with critters (Razorhounds have one at 7). However I'd say for just standard mundane non-bio engineered critters that the (starting stat)+(1/3rd starting stat)= Augmented Max as a good rule of thumb. There is a reason why corps spent a lot of money on creating warforms.

Here is how I'd go about it.
Just look back at the metatype table. The augmented maximum is always 1.5 the racial maximum. But that just leads to the question of what is the critters maximum natural attribute? If we look back at the metatype attribute table the maximum is always five above the minimum. But then whats the minimum then?
Well lets assume all animals presented in the book have average physical scores tor the species. Average for a human is three or 20BP. Two points above the minimum/three below maximum lets apply this to animals. A dog has a body of two, applying the above logic its minimum would be 0 and its natural maximum would be 5. Obviously it can't have a body of 0 so we round that up to 1 but keep the maximum where it is.

So applying the above reasoning for a dog this gives us.
Body 5(7)
Agility 6(9)
Reaction 6(9)
Strength 5(7)
(augmented maximum)
So for any animal simply add three to its stated physical scores to to get its racial maximum and the augmented maximum is 1.5 times the racial maximum.

That is how I would determine an animals maximum and augmented maximum ratings and my reasonings behind it.

I just want to know where you are getting your dogs! Largest (mundane) dog in all the books highest stat is 3.

However I' would agree that anything between 1.5 and 1.33 is fine.

Hmm, why didn't I think of doing that? Sounds as reasonable as anything to me, so I'll go with it. Thanks!

Thank you as well, BRodda.

He did take a dog with most of its stats as three...

he is saying that if it is statted at 3, add 3 to get racial max is 6. Multiply by 1.5 get an augmented max of 9. This seems to make sense and fit.

Of course, it is hard to get dogs up to that racial max...you can't just tell them to go to the gym more.

Right out of the book, as Dynamo explains
To be more clear the basic dog has
Body 2
Agility 3
Reaction 3
Strength 2

If we assume those to be average, then its natural maximum would be 3 higher. Read my original post again for that line of reasoning.

No, the max Body and Strength would be 5. Look at the other metatypes for this logic:

Average stat is the starting stat +2, assuming the augmented attribute natural max is a 6. If the Natural Maximum is lower, reduce the increased attribute by a like amount (IE: a 4 maximum would result in a +0 raise to the base stat, a 5 maximum would be a +1 to a stat).

Who exactly are you replying to? I said the max body and strength would be five. Your post is confusing me and I'm not 100% sure what your trying to say. Yes average is starting stat +2(if max is six) but you can also easily say its maximum minus 3. You end up with the same number.

Now in the case of a dog you don't know the minimum or maximum you just know the stats as they are presented. If you assume them to be average. You could subtract two form each score, then add five to get the maximum. You'd also get minimums in this way but would have to round anything below one to one.

The human average is three, subtract two and you get 1, add five and you have six his maximum. A dwarf has a maximum reaction of five, one lower then a humans naturally his average should also be one lower right? An average reaction of two. Two minus two plus five equals five, the dwarfs maximum reaction.

So rather then do a more complicated math just take the average score and add 3 to get the maximum its easier and faster. And it works perfectly when trying to find the range of a critters physical ability scores, and subtract two from the average to get the minimum round up to one if necessary.

Lets look at a Ghouls physical attributes from the book and apply my method because Runners Companion actually tells us the modifier.
Body 7. Agility 3. Reaction 5. Strength 6

If we assume these to be average for a human ghoul. According to my logic the Maximums are +3 to the average and the minimums -2. This gives us a range on a human ghoul of.
Body 5-10, Agility 1-6, Reaction 3-8, Strength 4-9
This would mean a human ghoul has +4 Body, +2 Reaction and +3 Strength.
Oh look I just figured out a humans ghouls minimum and maximum physically attributes without cracking open runners companion. They match
It also works for willpower, logic and charisma but oddly not Intuition. The SR4 book Ghoul has an intuition of 4 which would suggest they get a bonus but they don't according to runners companion. However I'd say 7 out of 8 is fairly accurate.

So now to figure a critters natural maximum (and from which to get the augmented maximum) what is the flaw of adding 3 to the score assuming the score presented is average.

Oooookay, our math is the same, but yours is slightly different. It's like finding two different ways to multiply fractions. I very well may have misread something in there, no need to get so defensive (if in fact you are defensive - 80% of conversation is body language, which the internet currently lacks).

OK just stumbled across the RAW.

Pg 162 of Running Wild under "Creating a Mutant"


That means that your Strength 3 Dog can be Strength 5.

Mutant does not equal maximum attribute, give more details or try again.

Trying to give it without getting smacked by the admins for giving to big a section of the rules.

In the Mutant section of Running Wild there are rules for boosting attributes by spending Essence. In that section it states the following:

1) These rules are only for Mundane critters.
2) That you can not boost attributes more than 1.5 times the base attribute rounded up.

As it is the ONLY place in any of the rules I can see where there is a Max. Augmented attribute given for mundane critters I would have to say that RAW would be that the Max. Augmented attribute is 1.5 times the base rounded up.

If people want to say that it only applies to Mutants spending essence that is fine. I just think that it fits with the critters as we see them in the books. A dog that is a strong as a troll is not a dog anymore and is more like a chimera or warform.

That sounds like it only applies to mutants,

I also agree with using a percentage instead of a flat +3 for maximums. An normal, mundane insect has a body of 0 - would you say that a really tough mundane insect could have a body of 3? I hope I never run into those bugs. Using +50% for max unaugmented gives dogs a maximum natural body of 3, which in my book puts it on par with an average human in a physical trade (dockworker, garbageman, etc.). This seems much more reasonable to me than giving it body 5 and saying it's as tough as a professional athlete.

I'm sure that someone will point out that this isn't consistent with people, who have an average score of 2-3 but a max of 6 (+100%). I don't have a good response to that argument.

So, how would you handle improving an insect when using a percentage? Any percentage multiplied by 0 = 0, eh?

A normal mundane insect has no stats so it doesn't matter.

We are talking about the peak physical condition of a dog, maximum attributes. Just as a human can train his average body to professional heights, a dog could be trained so its tougher and stronger. Why couldn't a peak physical condition rottweiler be as tough and as strong as a professional athlete. (the sample dog assumes something like a rottweiler). There are professional athlete dogs you know.

The only other animal comparison we can go with are shifters from runners companion however most of their attributes run from 1-6. Probably because most animals stats average lower then a human and being a shifter needs to be an advantage not a disadvantage.56
Great Cat
Body 6
Agility 5
Reaction 4
Strength 5
Now using my formulas the maximums would be +3 and the minimums -2 of the stats listed above

The attribute range for a shifter tiger or lion.
Tiger/Lion Shifter
Body 4-9
Agility 5-8
Reaction 2-7
Strength 3-8

My formula fits exactly

Check out the mosquitoes in the Arctic!

Something not well addressed in the rules or in the discussion here is the artificial variation introduced into some species (dogs in particular) by breeding. The small-large dichotomy in the rules doesn't come close to the chihuahua - mastiff range of dogs.

What's more, specific breeding programs have focused on different attributes. Herding dogs such as border collies have been bred for over a century for intelligence, reaction and agility, with some loss in size (strength, but not so much body, as they are working dogs that run multiple marathons a day) and combat capability (if it actually kills or harms a herd animal, it is put down, or at least not bred further).

At the end of the day, just make the animal whatever you want it to be. Animals are already very malleable through selective breeding, and that trend would surely continue with the technology available in the SR universe.

May I point you to SR4A (p. 292), in the Attributes and Skills section, it states that all stats are for standard creatures of the type, and GMs may add or subtract up to 3 points per attribute to reflect the strength or weakness of a particular critter. Note: As I read the chart for metahumans, everything has a baseline of 3 and the average is pushed up by whatever the modifier is for the attribute. Trolls have an average body of 7 (3 + 4) for example.

As it was discussed above, Maximum Augmented is generally 50% higher than maximum unaugmented, so I would apply the 1.5 multiplier after those changes were made.

For Running Wild, Warforms and Chimerics generally start from the highest potential that can be bred into the animal, so if the scientists are breeding for Strength in a dog, they will likely start with a Strength of 5, before Genetic Manipulation.

RE: Razorhounds - Dogs have a Base of 3 for Reaction, which would generate a 6 Maximum and 9 Augmented Maximum, allowing for the 7 Reaction from Augmentations. (If I screwed up the math, let me know.)

RE: Insects - I wouldn't go higher than 1 (With Fragile 1), though in cases of exceptionally large insects --like B Horror Movie large-- I could see going up to a 3. That is going to be a terrifyingly large bug though. My Evil GM mind says it'd be a great way to make the players think that bug spirits were involved... Otherwise, if you want insects to be tougher, use Swarms and allow the circumstances to make Area attacks difficult or dangerous.

HA all this arguing and it turns out the book actually had the rule. An wouldn't you know it. I figured out what the rule basically was without ever reading it.